they're all keepers

[Tigerland]

MCGUANE
THURSFIELD
MOORE

i keep hearing (BF) speculation that at least one of these guys will be up for trade at the end of the year. my question is why?

Mcguane is tough as nails, competitive and looks better every week.

Thursfield did a good job on fev after mcgaune left the field, and still IMHO has some potential to be a very good versatile backman, can play on a small forward as well as a KPF

Moore is having his best year to date, would probably be on the podium if the B&F was now.

i still think this is the making of a good backline. am i missing something?

____________________________________

Keep them and trade Rance.

 

[ScallyWag1]

astbury was earmarked as a KPF, the better than expected performance of jack up front meant that he could go down back. which is probably a better place to learn the game. but he'll ultimately end up a forward in all likelyhood.

the thing with the list of KPD above, they're all young with the exception of moore, who is still relatively young as well. plenty of time to ply their trade at coburg

something doesn't sit right about trading for picks in these compromised drafts

 

[_RT_]

They're all keepers if we want to continue to finish last.

Moore is the best of the lot for the role he plays (3rd tall). He's not perfect but he picks off long balls, helps out the other KPD and he sets up attacks. Thursfield is too small physically and is just a stopper. McGuane is still too small physically (lacks a few kg's and I don't if he will ever put that extra weight on, just look at his body shape, ie legs). Also his disposal/decision making is the worst of the lot. So for mine Thursfield and McGuane are the most vulnerable of the 3.

Interesting you say that McGuane has the worst disposal/decision making of the lot:

McGuane 155 disposals (72 kicks 83 handballs) 37 turnovers 7 kicks direct to opposition 24% of disposals are turned over.
Moore 144 disposals (87 kicks 57 handballs) 39 turnovers 7 kicks direct to opposition 27% of disposals are turned over.
Thursfield 74 disposals (35 kicks 39 handballs) 17 turnovers 3 kicks direct to opposition 23% of disposals are turned over.

Looking at that he gets more disposals than the other 2, turns it over 1% more than Thursfield despite having twice as many disposals. While Moore who you believe is the most secure of the 3 is the least reliable of the 3 with the ball. But I know, you don't put much faith in what the stats say and rather go with what you see with your own 2 eyes but sometimes stats are very handy is disproving misconceptions regarding players.

I believe the issue people have with McGuane is when he does stuff up its a more noticable error which invariably results in a goal, because of a poor decision. However, since Deledio has gone down back its quite noticeable that both him and Newman are constantly recieving the handball off McGuane when he does get possession of it.

We need a big bodied FB and CHB for the long-term. Hopefully Astbury takes CHB and makes it his own, he's already showing signs and he has much more positive attributes than McGuane. FB is wide open and maybe Grimes or Gourdis can fill that. I've lost all hope in Rance, he doesn't even play as a KPP, he is 193cm but plays as a small. Decision making/disposal average and his overhead marking is poor. I think he might get one more shot in the seniors to prove he can play but I think we have to look elsewhere. Would try to trade him for whatever we can get.

While I agree that a big bodied KPD is needed, I believe that CHB is the only spot we need to fill at the moment. Astbury has looked ok down back and would be a good fit for CHB IMO. A one touch player with good mobility who has also shown he knows how to read the play. Gourdis is another 1 who could be tried at FB which might allow McGuane to play at CHB. Also agree that Rance has one more chance to stake a claim. Has another year to go so next 18 months is really make or break for him.

 

[ScallyWag1]

STOP drinking at the breakfast table!!!

no way

 

[Kyusss]

Thursfield is easily the best of the three for mine.

Agree 100%

 

[coke_zero]

Also, I don't like the idea of Post AND Astbury being trained as defenders. While our defense seem to have alot of options, Riewoldt, Griffiths and Westhoff make up only a small pool of tall fowards (not including Polak)

Post is playing in the forward line for Coburg so chances are he will get a game there. Will be hard right now for him to get a game down back with Astbury, Mcguane, Moore, Thursfield and Gourdis all playing for the same spots.

astbury was earmarked as a KPF, the better than expected performance of jack up front meant that he could go down back. which is probably a better place to learn the game. but he'll ultimately end up a forward in all likelyhood.

agree, No point in having up forward going goalless every second week. Get him in the backline learning something untill he bulks up.

 

[santa claws]

Interesting you say that McGuane has the worst disposal/decision making of the lot:

McGuane 155 disposals (72 kicks 83 handballs) 37 turnovers 7 kicks direct to opposition 24% of disposals are turned over.
Moore 144 disposals (87 kicks 57 handballs) 39 turnovers 7 kicks direct to opposition 27% of disposals are turned over.
Thursfield 74 disposals (35 kicks 39 handballs) 17 turnovers 3 kicks direct to opposition 23% of disposals are turned over.

Looking at that he gets more disposals than the other 2, turns it over 1% more than Thursfield despite having twice as many disposals. While Moore who you believe is the most secure of the 3 is the least reliable of the 3 with the ball. But I know, you don't put much faith in what the stats say and rather go with what you see with your own 2 eyes but sometimes stats are very handy is disproving misconceptions regarding players.

I believe the issue people have with McGuane is when he does stuff up its a more noticable error which invariably results in a goal, because of a poor decision. However, since Deledio has gone down back its quite noticeable that both him and Newman are constantly recieving the handball off McGuane when he does get possession of it.


While I agree that a big bodied KPD is needed, I believe that CHB is the only spot we need to fill at the moment. Astbury has looked ok down back and would be a good fit for CHB IMO. A one touch player with good mobility who has also shown he knows how to read the play. Gourdis is another 1 who could be tried at FB which might allow McGuane to play at CHB. Also agree that Rance has one more chance to stake a claim. Has another year to go so next 18 months is really make or break for him.

lol the old stats to suit again. how many of mcguanes kicks and hand balls are to someone stansing still or to a contest or create a contest because they dont get to the target quick enough, or sideways backwards.
mcguane is targeted because he does make the most errors when a target is really neeeded to be hit. its not just his kicking but his decision making as well. by anyones standards he is below standard in these areas.

based purely on strengths and weakness both thursfield and mcguane do not stack up. glass half fulls of which are loved by richmond supporters.
i have no doubt what so ever that if we are to become a top 4 side we in time need to be looking for better.

 

[TO HOT TO HANDLE]

Great we are looking for negatives again.
2012 premiers
Moore Goudis Thursfield
Dea McGuane Connors
Moore and Will can play tall or small and all of the above are quick.
Dea Goudis Thursfield
Newman Post Deledio
Dea Astbury Webberley
Connors McGuane Edwards
Moore Post Thursfield
Astbury Goudis Dea
Some alternate back 6, we are not building a back 6 but a back 12, so we can mix and match, I bet that you didnt know that Westhoff and Grimes can also go down back, injuries require replacements and we are now building a defence that can beat any team in the future. Its easy to look at our negatives but if you look at say Mackie from Geelong he has taken years to become the player he is. By the end of the year you will see what I mean.
Grimes Westhoff Dea
Webberley Astbury Hicks.
THAT IS ALL.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

lol the old stats to suit again. how many of mcguanes kicks and hand balls are to someone stansing still or to a contest or create a contest because they dont get to the target quick enough, or sideways backwards.
mcguane is targeted because he does make the most errors when a target is really neeeded to be hit. its not just his kicking but his decision making as well. by anyones standards he is below standard in these areas.

based purely on strengths and weakness both thursfield and mcguane do not stack up. glass half fulls of which are loved by richmond supporters.
i have no doubt what so ever that if we are to become a top 4 side we in time need to be looking for better.

I feel mcguane has got rid of most his errors this year as i use to really not want the ball in his hands when in controll of the ball but i dont care as much if we use as an escape root out of the backline.

 

[ScallyWag1]

I feel mcguane has got rid of most his errors this year as i use to really not want the ball in his hands when in controll of the ball but i dont care as much if we use as an escape root out of the backline.

i think everyone seems to be improving under the new coaching regime and new structures. with a bit of class in the smaller players at the back the KPDs can concentrate on shutting down their opponent.

how many possessions does presti generally rack up and how's his disposal?

 

[_RT_]

lol the old stats to suit again. how many of mcguanes kicks and hand balls are to someone stansing still or to a contest or create a contest because they dont get to the target quick enough, or sideways backwards.
mcguane is targeted because he does make the most errors when a target is really neeeded to be hit. its not just his kicking but his decision making as well. by anyones standards he is below standard in these areas.

based purely on strengths and weakness both thursfield and mcguane do not stack up. glass half fulls of which are loved by richmond supporters.
i have no doubt what so ever that if we are to become a top 4 side we in time need to be looking for better.

So now that it is shown that McGuane isn't a turnover merchant like many believe the focus switches to a different area. What does it matter if he is kicking it backwards/sideways as long as we maintain possession of the ball after all isn't that the most important part of bringing the ball out of defence.

 

[tiggywigs]

McGuane is an unusual defensive unit. He plays a good, close-checking defensive game, but has an attacking nature. I think he has the potential to develop into a real "weapon" as he continues to mature. To compare him to Scarlett might seem OTT at this stage, but there is enough versatility, speed and skill (as well as appetite for a big stage contest) to suggest he might end up becoming a truly elite defender of the Scarlett type.

 

[Madtiger2006]

McGuane is an unusual defensive unit. He plays a good, close-checking defensive game, but has an attacking nature. I think he has the potential to develop into a real "weapon" as he continues to mature. To compare him to Scarlett might seem OTT at this stage, but there is enough versatility, speed and skill (as well as appetite for a big stage contest) to suggest he might end up becoming a truly elite defender of the Scarlett type.

Correct
And he's only 23. I reckon he'll be a gun defender by the time he's 25. Think him and Thursty can become very good 2nd and 3rd talls. They'll be 95kg by the 2012 season and at 192cm that is prefect height and weight for 2nd and 3rd talls

 

[ScallyWag1]

this

 

[jihg]

We win a couple of games and all is forgiven next people will be suggesting that we top up because we are not that far away from being a contender. Has a very familiar ring to it.

We need to make room and remove some players still. Simmonds is gone seems like McMuffin is gone. Hislop and Thomson seem to be struggling to keep their spots as well. We need to turn over at minimum 6-7 players who else Polak. There is five still need another two and they should be trades who do we have that we can off load that has some sort of currency?

 

[coke_zero]

We win a couple of games and all is forgiven next people will be suggesting that we top up because we are not that far away from being a contender. Has a very familiar ring to it.

We need to make room and remove some players still. Simmonds is gone seems like McMuffin is gone. Hislop and Thomson seem to be struggling to keep their spots as well. We need to turn over at minimum 6-7 players who else Polak. There is five still need another two and they should be trades who do we have that we can off load that has some sort of currency?

agree, we need to turn over atleast 7 players. Either it be by delisting or trading them. We are in a rebuild. lets do it probably.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

So now that it is shown that McGuane isn't a turnover merchant like many believe the focus switches to a different area. What does it matter if he is kicking it backwards/sideways as long as we maintain possession of the ball after all isn't that the most important part of bringing the ball out of defence.

So now it is shown you are wearing seriously tinted glasses, it will need to be pointed out that the stats don't show that it matters when he kicks sideways and it is less than 10 metres and hits the target, but the play on ends up in a chain of hand balls and the the eventual goals. Look at the Saints and Cats back 6 tonight and take your glasses off when you compare them. McGuane has the defensive pressure and hard at it attitute, just lacks the skills and footy smarts to in a top 4 backline IMO. Trade if possible!

 

[_RT_]

So now it is shown you are wearing seriously tinted glasses, it will need to be pointed out that the stats don't show that it matters when he kicks sideways and it is less than 10 metres and hits the target, but the play on ends up in a chain of hand balls and the the eventual goals. Look at the Saints and Cats back 6 tonight and take your glasses off when you compare them. McGuane has the defensive pressure and hard at it attitute, just lacks the skills and footy smarts to in a top 4 backline IMO. Trade if possible!

So McGuane gets penalised because the players he gives the ball off to get caught with it. Interesting concept, perhaps we can credit the backline for every goal that our forward kick.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

So McGuane gets penalised because the players he gives the ball off to get caught with it. Interesting concept, perhaps we can credit the backline for every goal that our forward kick.

Wow...glad I'm not your team mate....you wouldn't feel slightly at fault if I get driven into the ground from a high loopy handball you've dished off to me because you didn't have the skill or decision making to pick a better option elsewhere!

 

[Barnzy]

So McGuane gets penalised because the players he gives the ball off to get caught with it. Interesting concept, perhaps we can credit the backline for every goal that our forward kick.

That's where your precious stats can be misleading. Little things like that contest with Newman and McGuane on the last line the other week. It was McGuane's terrible decision making when he panicked, picked the wrong option and handballed to Newman who was already marked by 2 opposition players when he should've gone long down the line. Of course Newman then had to try and clear it and it was a turnover.

According to stats McGuane did nothing wrong in that situation. To the naked eye it was typical McGuane stuffing up again.

 

[_RT_]

Wow...glad I'm not your team mate....you wouldn't feel slightly at fault if I get driven into the ground from a high loopy handball you've dished off to me because you didn't have the skill or decision making to pick a better option elsewhere!

I'm not saying that McGuane doesn't make mistakes but the way people carry on here its like every disposal he has is shitful and kills his teammates, I've seen some of our better ball users kill a teammate with dodgy disposals at times but that gets excused because they are highly rated players. Perhaps it would just be better for McGuane to stand there and take the oncoming tackle and get pinged for the free kick rather than trying to move the ball on. At least that way the way he gets slammed would be justified.

Given the pressure he used to find himself in the backline you can't expect him to find the open man every time, however the one thing I have noticed, since we've started to play better as a side, is McGuane for all his faults, is slowly getting better and as I've mentioned in earlier posts it appears he is starting to realise his limitations and working to his strengths. I've also noticed that he is starting to give off more and more ball to the likes of Lids and Newman rather than trying to take the game on himself.

 

[coke_zero]

Given the pressure he used to find himself in the backline you can't expect him to find the open man every time, however the one thing I have noticed, since we've started to play better as a side, is McGuane for all his faults, is slowly getting better and as I've mentioned in earlier posts it appears he is starting to realise his limitations and working to his strengths. I've also noticed that he is starting to give off more and more ball to the likes of Lids and Newman rather than trying to take the game on himself.

He is slowly improving his decision making. But you cant blame him the last few years for taking the game on when your options to kick or handball to where McMahon and King. Now he has Lids, Newman and Connors. Also Moore isnt the worst option either.

 

[Madtiger2006]

lol the old stats to suit again. how many of mcguanes kicks and hand balls are to someone stansing still or to a contest or create a contest because they dont get to the target quick enough, or sideways backwards.
mcguane is targeted because he does make the most errors when a target is really neeeded to be hit. its not just his kicking but his decision making as well. by anyones standards he is below standard in these areas.

based purely on strengths and weakness both thursfield and mcguane do not stack up. glass half fulls of which are loved by richmond supporters.
i have no doubt what so ever that if we are to become a top 4 side we in time need to be looking for better.

Mcguane is comfortably a better kick than moore. He has more penetration and accuracy. Gets more distance and power. Moore's kick sit up a bit. He doesn't have a clean kick and they tend to float in the air. Mcguanes only weakness is his decision making at times. But most of that has to do with nothing to kick to upfield so he has to go sideways and sometimes these options are dangerous too. If he just banged it long instead of trying a dangerous sideways option we wouldn't even be talking about him turning it over . If he kicked long against the Hawks instead of when he went sideways to options which were risky enough you would be praising Mcguane. Mcguane is a better kick, takes a much tougher opponent and is much more value to the team than Moore who takes 187cm players usually and gets beaten more often than not without really hurting the opposition by foot. I'm not worried by Mcguanes 6-8 noticeable turnovers this season. He probably had that many in the previous 2 seasons combined. Most of this years turnovers could be eliminated with 1 long kick. Under pressure he shows he can quite often get out of trouble also. At 23 and getting bigger by the year, he is just about to peak and he's exactly the player we want to hold onto. Unless you want to play Moore on 200cm players and bring in Post and Gourdis and wait 3-4 years while they become players while making mistakes during the learning process. If they happen to make it they'll be lucky to be as good as Mcguane. You are supposed to keep players like Mcguane and add more options. Thursty is fine too. You sound like a bored Richmond supporter who just wants a change because someone is 2cm taller than someone else or someone has made half a dozen mistakes(which are easily fixable). Well sonny it's not happening . Mcguane and Thursty are prefectly on track to becoming very good 2nd and 3rd talls and occasionally 1st talls. If you want to see us take another step backwards then go ahead and trade him lol. Post and Gourdis will be our 3rd talls for at least 2 years and if they are lucky they will occasionally play 1st tall. Post is suitable for CHB. He doesn't have the pace to play on a leading FF. He will be a CHB or CHF.

 

[Punt Road Feral]

The jobs of McGuane, Moore and Thursty is to play on the big boys and reduce their influence on games. They do this pretty well.
All 3 are brilliant spoilers particularly McGuane imo.
Having played as a backman i know how hard it is for the backline when the ball is constantly pumped down your area and the opposition has lots of players coming down.
Personally i think we should keep all 3 unless we get a deal we cannot refuse. If it ain't broke dont fix it.
I'm a little dissapointed we didn't take Hawthorns trade offer for Alex Rance at the end of last season

 

[coke_zero]

Mcguane is comfortably a better kick than moore. He has more penetration and accuracy. Gets more distance and power. Moore's kick sit up a bit. He doesn't have a clean kick and they tend to float in the air. Mcguanes only weakness is his decision making at times. But most of that has to do with nothing to kick to upfield so he has to go sideways and sometimes these options are dangerous too. If he just banged it long instead of trying a dangerous sideways option we wouldn't even be talking about him turning it over . If he kicked long against the Hawks instead of when he went sideways to options which were risky enough you would be praising Mcguane. Mcguane is a better kick, takes a much tougher opponent and is much more value to the team than Moore who takes 187cm players usually and gets beaten more often than not without really hurting the opposition by foot. I'm not worried by Mcguanes 6-8 noticeable turnovers this season. He probably had that many in the previous 2 seasons combined. Most of this years turnovers could be eliminated with 1 long kick. Under pressure he shows he can quite often get out of trouble also. At 23 and getting bigger by the year, he is just about to peak and he's exactly the player we want to hold onto. Unless you want to play Moore on 200cm players and bring in Post and Gourdis and wait 3-4 years while they become players while making mistakes during the learning process. If they happen to make it they'll be lucky to be as good as Mcguane. You are supposed to keep players like Mcguane and add more options. Thursty is fine too. You sound like a bored Richmond supporter who just wants a change because someone is 2cm taller than someone else or someone has made half a dozen mistakes(which are easily fixable). Well sonny it's not happening . Mcguane and Thursty are prefectly on track to becoming very good 2nd and 3rd talls and occasionally 1st talls. If you want to see us take another step backwards then go ahead and trade him lol. Post and Gourdis will be our 3rd talls for at least 2 years and if they are lucky they will occasionally play 1st tall. Post is suitable for CHB. He doesn't have the pace to play on a leading FF. He will be a CHB or CHF.

McGuane is not a better kick than Moore. If we can get a pick between 20-30 for either 3 we should take it. Also Gourdis had a good game today and would be pressing towards a game soon.

I'm a little dissapointed we didn't take Hawthorns trade offer for Alex Rance at the end of last season

Do you know what they where offering us?