Which players won't play a senior game in 2012?

[Blue and Silver]

Yeah and John Georgiadis once kicked 8 against our gun backline. Doesn't mean he was any good as an AFL player though.

I know i'll never win this argument on a board full of Carlton fanatics but that's ok.

I'd have more success here arguing that Hendo is Royce Hart reincarnated than arguing that he is a promising tall defender but hasn't got the game to be a successful KPF.

I guess i'll have to take comfort from the fact the coaches agree seeing as they played him back even without Waite, Kruezer and Hampson late last year, and have gone and added Rowe now as well.

In Ratten we trust

Typical pessimist retort.

People don't agree with my unsupported opinion therefore they are sheep.

Even with Hendo as a forward we would need a succession plan for Waite and Thornton beyond Mitchell and Casboult, which is why we added Rowe. As for him playing back he was the only fit player on our list who could after Jamison, Bower, White and Waite were all struck with injuries, except for Thornton who has never been a good man on man.

Henderson has a great attacking flair and can certainly win contested marking battles, but has consistently struggled with opponents on the lead. Gives his all but isn't the best at close manning. I think he will be our CHF by 2013 once Watson and McCarthy get a good crack at CHB.

 

[Silvagnis]

Yeah and John Georgiadis once kicked 8 against our gun backline. Doesn't mean he was any good as an AFL player though.

I know i'll never win this argument on a board full of Carlton fanatics but that's ok.

I'd have more success here arguing that Hendo is Royce Hart reincarnated than arguing that he is a promising tall defender but hasn't got the game to be a successful KPF.

I guess i'll have to take comfort from the fact the coaches agree seeing as they played him back even without Waite, Kruezer and Hampson late last year, and have gone and added Rowe now as well.

In Ratten we trust

Carlton's Facebook page might be more your go if you want to jump to conclusions again.

You only called Henderson the next Brad Miller early last year.

At least someone is filling in for celtic_pride and BlueGibbs2011.

 

[goreds]

Jack Watts couldn't manage 25 this year, yet Melbourne fans have him locked down as their next big thing.
Not sure what Henderson doesn't show that Jack does.

Jack can catch it...

 

[Blue and Silver]

So can Hendo.

Had an interrupted pre-season both years and has been slow to start. 10 marks against Brisbane was a fair effort

 

[TerryWallet]

You only called Henderson the next Brad Miller early last year.

Yeah and you were calling him a gun forward.

And what has happened since?

He didn't cut it as a forward and got moved down back by the coaches.

And he looks a promising Backman.

 

[mediumsizered]

Yeah and you were calling him a gun forward.

And what has happened since?

He didn't cut it as a forward and got moved down back by the coaches.

And he looks a promising Backman.

He got moved down back after Jamo got injured, because our next tallest defender was Laidler. That is the reality, sorry it doesn't fit your agenda.

 

[TerryWallet]

He got moved down back after Jamo got injured, because our next tallest defender was Laidler. That is the reality, sorry it doesn't fit your agenda.

I don't have an agenda.

I just have an opinion about Hendo as an AFL key position forward which outside of a Carlton fan board would be widely held.

I also have an opinion that he is a promising defender. What agenda does that fit into?

 

[sherb]

I don't have an agenda.

I just have an opinion about Hendo as an AFL key position forward which outside of a Carlton fan board would be widely held.

I also have an opinion that he is a promising defender. What agenda does that fit into?

That he can only be a backman and can't be a forward.

I personally think it is too early to make that call.

 

[rp84]

I actually think jack is becoming very good. Looks excellent on the half back line.

That said, hendo is ahead of him clearly, and is at least as good as Hurley.

Hurley is all media hype from essendon supporters like quarterbrain. Definitely a good player, but nowhere near being a star.

Hendo could be an AA CHB. Is an excellent defender, and more than handy option at chf.

 

[Silvagnis]

Looks like Henderson will play a senior game in 2012.

 

[mediumsizered]

I don't have an agenda.

I just have an opinion about Hendo as an AFL key position forward which outside of a Carlton fan board would be widely held.

I also have an opinion that he is a promising defender. What agenda does that fit into?

Then why did you state "He didn't cut it as a forward and got moved down back by the coaches", when the actual reason he was moved to defence was because of the injury suffered by Jamo, with the move occurring during the game in which Jamo suffered his injury?

 

[TerryWallet]

I actually think jack is becoming very good. Looks excellent on the half back line.

That said, hendo is ahead of him clearly, and is at least as good as Hurley.

Hurley is all media hype from essendon supporters like quarterbrain. Definitely a good player, but nowhere near being a star.

Hendo could be an AA CHB. Is an excellent defender, and more than handy option at chf.

My Royce Hart analogy wasn't far off lol

 

[40yearBLUE]

I think the Hurley comparison is a good one. Both can play kpd or kpf and I think both will have similar careers, their best worth to their team will be based on area of most deficiency. Against us Hurley was forced to play defender because frankly they had no-one else capable of stopping us. In the rd18 game Lloyd said those exact words, after Pears went down injured, Kruze took 2 marks at CHF in the opening 90 seconds and Lloyd commented that the Walker step ladder wasnt capable of kicking 3 or 4 goals that Hurley was, but that Ess needed Hurley to stem the flood of goals we would kick and therefore was of more value as a defender to them. He was spot on, and Hurley was switched to defence shortly afterwards, but by then we were 6 goals up. In the elim final, Hendo made Hurley look like a chump. Did he even kick a goal that day? I dont think so.

Hurley finds the ball a little better than Hendo, but Hendo tackles more, and has better run and carry, in short is more athletic and despite being bigger has better ground skills.

Compare their 2010 seasons here: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...11&type=T&fid1=P&fopt1=2010&fid2=P&fopt2=2010

Compare Hendo to Watts career here: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=2308&tid2=12&pid2=3107&type=T&fid1=C&fid2=C

This is exactly why Hendo is down back, it has nothing to do with his perceived lack of ability to hold down a key forward role, as others have pointed out, he had an "average" first year and still managed 25 goals, where as Hurley had a super year and kicked 27, and Watts, well nuff said on that, will go down as a Wallace Miller pick in years to come. During the 2009 draft I had hoped we would get Hurley, but we ddint have Hendo, now I would not mind either of them but if it meant we got Yazz too then I would take Hendo every time. I dont rate Watts that much. He may improve, but I dont think he is a top 10 draft pick let alone and number 1. But what would I know.

When we have a full compliment of fit and in form tall defenders to choose from Hendo will go forward and make monkeys of some of the posters here. The fact that he was needed down back and did such a great job is not a measure of him being better suited as a back, it is a measure of his ability to do the jobs asked of him. Another swing man of that quality on our list is an absolute bonus.

 

[parrot]

It's all about team balance really. Hendo is definitely an option for CHF, but how many 195-197cm CHB's do we have on our list that are ready-to-go? Only Watson and McCarthy and both are in "development mode" for a while yet. At the other end we have Rowe and Mitchell both physically ready for the big KPF spot. It's not unreasonable to expect either of those 2 to do at least as well as Hendo did at CHF in his first year, BUT they can't play CHB like Hendo can. Hendo has actually become a tall utility, bit like Waite, Thornton and hopefully McCarthy. These types are very valuable because of their versatility. Was Hendo the most impressive young KPD in the comp in 2011? Strugglng to think of any other defender who got close. Maybe Reid at the Pies, but his kicking is diabolically bad like all Reid's.

 

[TerryWallet]

Ok i'm glad that is all settled now. The carlton board has spoken.

Lachie Henderson is clearly better than Jack Watts. At least as good and probably better than Michael Hurley. An All Australian contender in 2012. And the best young KPD in the comp above current AA CHB Ben Reid.

Go Blues.

 

[Jeremias]

It's funny watching shmucks get all defensive when their flimsy argument gets shot down with facts.....

 

[40yearBLUE]

Ok i'm glad that is all settled now. The carlton board has spoken.

Lachie Henderson is clearly better than Jack Watts. At least as good and probably better than Michael Hurley. An All Australian contender in 2012. And the best young KPD in the comp above current AA CHB Ben Reid.

Go Blues.

Hendo IS clearly better than Watts the stats clearly show this, and is at least as good as Hurley either his 2010 season as a forward comparing him to Hurley's 2011 as a forward or his 2011 as a defender compared to Hurley's 2010 as a defender, the stats clearly bare this out. So whats your point?

 

[Squida25]

Too late guys

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=900773

In fairness I do agree with Terry, would easily take Hurley and Reid before Henderson if picking a side, not so sure about Watts .

Stats never tell the whole tale, as much as I'd like to think Henderson is as good as Hurley/Reid the reality is he isn't. For all we know Watts could turn out to be the best of the lot.

*backs away slowly from this thread*

 

[Blue and Silver]

I think the Hurley comparison is a good one. Both can play kpd or kpf and I think both will have similar careers, their best worth to their team will be based on area of most deficiency. Against us Hurley was forced to play defender because frankly they had no-one else capable of stopping us. In the rd18 game Lloyd said those exact words, after Pears went down injured, Kruze took 2 marks at CHF in the opening 90 seconds and Lloyd commented that the Walker step ladder wasnt capable of kicking 3 or 4 goals that Hurley was, but that Ess needed Hurley to stem the flood of goals we would kick and therefore was of more value as a defender to them. He was spot on, and Hurley was switched to defence shortly afterwards, but by then we were 6 goals up. In the elim final, Hendo made Hurley look like a chump. Did he even kick a goal that day? I dont think so.

Hurley finds the ball a little better than Hendo, but Hendo tackles more, and has better run and carry, in short is more athletic and despite being bigger has better ground skills.

Compare their 2010 seasons here: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...11&type=T&fid1=P&fopt1=2010&fid2=P&fopt2=2010

Compare Hendo to Watts career here: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...1=2308&tid2=12&pid2=3107&type=T&fid1=C&fid2=C

This is exactly why Hendo is down back, it has nothing to do with his perceived lack of ability to hold down a key forward role, as others have pointed out, he had an "average" first year and still managed 25 goals, where as Hurley had a super year and kicked 27, and Watts, well nuff said on that, will go down as a Wallace Miller pick in years to come. During the 2009 draft I had hoped we would get Hurley, but we ddint have Hendo, now I would not mind either of them but if it meant we got Yazz too then I would take Hendo every time. I dont rate Watts that much. He may improve, but I dont think he is a top 10 draft pick let alone and number 1. But what would I know.

When we have a full compliment of fit and in form tall defenders to choose from Hendo will go forward and make monkeys of some of the posters here. The fact that he was needed down back and did such a great job is not a measure of him being better suited as a back, it is a measure of his ability to do the jobs asked of him. Another swing man of that quality on our list is an absolute bonus.

On the Hendo/Hurley comparison Hurley played defense this year for a significant portion of game time, while Henderson was a pure forward in 2010. Personally I think Hurley is the better footballer but Henderson is the better athlete, and that the distinction between the two will be evident at their peaks.

To put it another way, Hurley is like Jonothan Brown while Hendo is like Nick Reidwoldt (not of the same calibre of course, at least not yet, the future holds much which is unforeseeable). Hurley is going to pound some teams and be a real domineering presence, Henderson is going to destroy oppenents by consistently beating them athletically. For mine Henderson needs a full pre-season (which he hasn't yet had at Carlton) to really start showing what he can do.

 

[TerryWallet]

It's funny watching shmucks get all defensive when their flimsy argument gets shot down with facts.....

Defensive?...who's getting defensive?

I'm busy trying to stop laughing at the idolatry on display here.

Otherwise i'm happy reading peoples opinions and how different/same they are.

 

[TerryWallet]

cmon Harker don't be so pessimistic lol.

Hurley and Reid have also had injury setbacks and Watts is the rawest.

Interested to hear peoples thoughts.

 

[Aphrodite]

I'll give it better than a 50/50

Any takers for 70/30 !!!!

 

[40yearBLUE]

Let's be honest as to how these things work.
Exposed form has a lot to do with it and perception (especially of the high pick variety) seems to add weight to a status.

Reid's first couple of years were so-so before finding his niche down back.
A full season in a top team adds to his currency.

Watts is still largely in the "potential" bracket.
Had some good games this year and had some ordinary ones also.
Would we really be expecting as much of him as we do, had he not been a no. 1?

Hurley? Love the guy, but my feelings are that his status is already just a little over the top.
That's not to say he won't be a very good footballer but he does have some tools missing (re-phrasing may be required)

In all I'd take all the guys at the drop of a hat, but that doesn't shy away from the opening argument:
Can Henderson play at CHF. Yes he can.

And can he play CHB? Clearly.

PS, hate the term exposed form, what other kind of form is there? Unexposed form?

 

[Silvagnis]

Let's be honest as to how these things work.
Exposed form has a lot to do with it and perception (especially of the high pick variety) seems to add weight to a status.

Playing for a side that is in the top two, four or eight seems to add weight to a player's status. I can't help but wonder how Dale Thomas's, Maxwell's, O'Brien's, Mooney's and Harley's AA seasons would be viewed if they were wearing Richmond colours. They would probably be rated on par or even below what Deledio does week in, week out for a team with less talent. Another example would be Christensen and Vardy being rated by Geelong fans and the media as great talents. Huge no.

In the elim final, Hendo made Hurley look like a chump. Did he even kick a goal that day? I dont think so.

I felt that Hurley was on top of Henderson in their one on one contests.

Jamison had to be moved onto Hurley.

Was Hendo the most impressive young KPD in the comp in 2011? Strugglng to think of any other defender who got close. Maybe Reid at the Pies, but his kicking is diabolically bad like all Reid's.

Reid is a great kick who excels at switching the play to set up a fast break.

You may have confused Reid with the likes of Maxwell, O'Brien and Toovey.

 

[parrot]

Will be interesting to see how Reid goes without Leon in support to do the kicking duties. I remember the Pies aborted developing Reid as a forward because of his poor kicking - I still remember that hilarious stuttering run-up in the Blues V Pies game at the G. Kicking issues seem to afflict all the Reid's.