India comes full circle - acknowledges umpires are human after all

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Actually India under-appealed for a couple of close lbw shouts in the last test. Notably the Hussey one on the last day that was shown to be out on replay.

They cut that appeal short because Erasmus shook his head and walked away immediately.

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

The comments are fine, its the inconsistency from the Indian cricket team people are discussing here. Such as the Bucknor case pointed out above. The technology doesnt umpire the games, its there to assist them in getting the right outcome. Most umpires are in favour of it and current rules dont allow for over use.

There is more to the Bucknor case than most people realize or remember.

The Indian team's grouse against Bucknor goes back a bit --there is some history here.

The team's confidence in Bucknor's competence had eroded over time but things that happened on India's 2003-4 tour of Australia were the catalyst.

Bucknor was alleged to have been high handed in his interactions with the Indian players including some rude reprimands of the Indian wicket keeper (Patel, who was then a 17 yr old). That was followed by Bucknor ridiculing Dravid on camera by mimicking licking and polishing an imaginary ball when Dravid came into bat in a VB series ODI after serving his suspension for ball tampering during the same series.

The Indian team had lodged an official complaint via the captain's report at the end of the series, complaining of Bucknor's unprofessional conduct.

Unfortunately, that led to (or at least what the Indians believed) retaliatory umpiring decisions by Bucknor in almost every subsequent match that he stood in involving India, culminating in the Sydney test where Bucknor made mistakes galore.

Thats where things came to a head.

 

[PrideOf]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

There is more to the Bucknor case than most people realize or remember.

The Indian team's grouse against Bucknor goes back a bit --there is some history here.

The team's confidence in Bucknor's competence had eroded over time but things that happened on India's 2003-4 tour of Australia were the catalyst.

Bucknor was alleged to have been high handed in his interactions with the Indian players including some rude reprimands of the Indian wicket keeper (Patel, who was then a 17 yr old). That was followed by Bucknor ridiculing Dravid on camera by mimicking licking and polishing an imaginary ball when Dravid came into bat in a VB series ODI after serving his suspension for ball tampering during the same series.

The Indian team had lodged an official complaint via the captain's report at the end of the series, complaining of Bucknor's unprofessional conduct.

Unfortunately, that led to (or at least what the Indians believed) retaliatory umpiring decisions by Bucknor in almost every subsequent match that he stood in involving India, culminating in the Sydney test where Bucknor made mistakes galore.

Thats where things came to a head.

Seriously? One umpire is to blame and won't somebody think of the poor, embattled Indians?

This sort of tripe gets rolled out every time India is in the media's sights - the worst example being Harbajan Singh somehow becoming a victim when racially abusing Andrew Symonds.

I get the fact that the everyday Indian thinks Rahul, Sachin and MS are gods who can do no wrong, but we don't have to buy that bullshit.

 

[glenferry23]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

I don't believe that was meant as an excuse, rather it was to give some context to the history of bucknor and India. They was he berated Patel in particular really was inappropriate for an umpire and I guess there was a lot of acrimony between bucknor and the Indians since. The Sydney test might have been the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. It's not an excuse though.

Liked the way hussey spoke in this morning's press conference. Beautifully put, said the teams have moved on and enjoy a good rivalry now. Looking forward to the test, shame it's not tomorrow as it's usually on the 2nd, so we have to wait an extra day for it but a big match nonetheless

 

[frankrizzo]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Bucknor was alleged to have been high handed in his interactions with the Indian players including some rude reprimands of the Indian wicket keeper (Patel, who was then a 17 yr old). That was followed by Bucknor ridiculing Dravid on camera by mimicking licking and polishing an imaginary ball when Dravid came into bat in a VB series ODI after serving his suspension for ball tampering during the same series.

Oh please, bucknor was a highly respected and well liked liked ump, he failed to give symonds out caught behind and that cost him his career, you can allege he did this and did that(of course team india would never make things up) but all we know for certain is he failed to give symonds out he went on to a big score and that cost the ump his career.

If india actually did respect the umps and respect that mistakes can be made the drs would have not been rushed in after monkeygate and this thread wouldn't exist.

Every action by the indians over the last 4-5 years shows that they know they rule cricket with an iron fist and if you don't do as they say they will use all their political might to crush you into oblivion.

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

I don't believe that was meant as an excuse, rather it was to give some context to the history of bucknor and India. They was he berated Patel in particular really was inappropriate for an umpire and I guess there was a lot of acrimony between bucknor and the Indians since. The Sydney test might have been the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. It's not an excuse though.

Thank you -- someone got what I was trying to say.

Its not an excuse for anything, just meant to provide some background about the Bucknor issue regarding the fact

that Indian team had held Bucknor as an umpire who had overstayed his welcome in terms of his level of competence on the field for years prior to Sydney. Coupled with the fact that his personal conduct was beyond the pale when it came to professionalism --Far from being a liked and respected umpire by the Indians during the last few years of his career, Bucknor was thought of as a vindictive and unprofessional person who was incompetent to boot by the Indians. Sydney was the straw that brought everything crashing down.

 

[NQTIGER]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Thank you -- someone got what I was trying to say.

Its not an excuse for anything, just meant to provide some background about the Bucknor issue regarding the fact

that Indian team had held Bucknor as an umpire who had overstayed his welcome in terms of his level of competence on the field for years prior to Sydney. Coupled with the fact that his personal conduct was beyond the pale when it came to professionalism --Far from being a liked and respected umpire by the Indians during the last few years of his career, Bucknor was thought of as a vindictive and unprofessional person who was incompetent to boot by the Indians. Sydney was the straw that brought everything crashing down.

Oh please Bucknor was well respected by every country except the indians.....get a grip, if a caucasian says anything its racist, but if its said by an indian its a result of racial abuse.


You have obviously not had any sporting contact with them.

 

[sherb]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Thank you -- someone got what I was trying to say.

Its not an excuse for anything, just meant to provide some background about the Bucknor issue regarding the fact

that Indian team had held Bucknor as an umpire who had overstayed his welcome in terms of his level of competence on the field for years prior to Sydney. Coupled with the fact that his personal conduct was beyond the pale when it came to professionalism --Far from being a liked and respected umpire by the Indians during the last few years of his career, Bucknor was thought of as a vindictive and unprofessional person who was incompetent to boot by the Indians. Sydney was the straw that brought everything crashing down.

So it is up to the Indians to draw the final curtain on Bucknor's career?

What if they were wrong in their assessment of him?

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

So it is up to the Indians to draw the final curtain on Bucknor's career?

What if they were wrong in their assessment of him?

Come on mate, I didnt say that -- I provided some background to the tension between the umpire and that team because it sheds some light on why they were vehemently against Bucknor.

TBH, the Bucknor vs Indian team issue ws badly mishandled by the ICC --not paying heed to the original complaints and the ultimate removal of Bucknor from officiating in Perth -- both speak volumes of the ICC's ineptness:

a) firstly for brushing off repeated complaints about alleged high handedness of the umpire in question by sweeping them under the carpet

and

b) secondly, for succumbing to BCCI pressure to remove Bucknor.

A competently run organization would have taken corrective steps when the written complaints were first made circa 2003-04 and resolved the issues such that the buildup to the 2nd issue would never have come to pass.

Not taking the corrective action set the stage for the 2nd issue -- whereby the ICC capitulated to BCCI pressure.

 

[sherb]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Come on mate, I didnt say that -- I provided some background to the tension between the umpire and that team because it sheds some light on why they were vehemently against Bucknor.

TBH, the Bucknor vs Indian team issue ws badly mishandled by the ICC --not paying heed to the original complaints and the ultimate removal of Bucknor from officiating in Perth -- both speak volumes of the ICC's ineptness:

a) firstly for brushing off repeated complaints about alleged high handedness of the umpire in question by sweeping them under the carpet

and

b) secondly, for succumbing to BCCI pressure to remove Bucknor.

A competently run organization would have taken corrective steps when the written complaints were first made circa 2003-04 and resolved the issues such that the buildup to the 2nd issue would never have come to pass.

Not taking the corrective action set the stage for the 2nd issue -- whereby the ICC capitulated to BCCI pressure.

Okay then, I'd appreciate an answer to the second part of my post.

What if the Indians were wrong in their assessment of Bucknor?

Or can't the Indians be wrong in such situations?

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Oh please Bucknor was well respected by every country except the indians.....

Where did I imply Bucknor was not respected by other teams ? I said that the Indian team did not have high opinion of him --seems like I said the same thing you did.

...get a grip, if a caucasian says anything its racist, but if its said by an indian its a result of racial abuse.

You have obviously not had any sporting contact with them.

I missed the context here -- what did racism have to do with Bucknor or the Indian team ?

True, I have not had any sporting contact with the Indian or any of the teams in world cricket. That would make me a test / ODI player -- which I am not

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Okay then, I'd appreciate an answer to the second part of my post.

What if the Indians were wrong in their assessment of Bucknor?

Or can't the Indians be wrong in such situations?

You are absolutely correct -- anyone could be wrong in their assessment or their perception. And the Indians could well have been wrong in their assessment.

But this brings us back to the point I made earlier about the ICC's role --

Why would the ICC request every captain to submit written series reports if they are not going to act on it ? Why would they not have addressed these complaints with both Bucknor and the Indians and resolved the misunderstandings / misperceptions in the 3 years between 2003/4 and 2007/8, especially when there were repeat complaints in between ?

Sweeping an issue under the carpet rather than resolving is incompetent and unfortunately, it sends the wrong signal to the complainant -- a high handed message (perceptionwise, even if not intended) that says your complaints dont matter.

And when that complainant finally flexes its muscle (read money power) because past complaints have appeared to have fallen on deaf ears, who loses ?

a) the umpire in question --who might have been the victim of misperception
b) the team who took this drastic step --in terms of their reputation
c) the game of cricket -- whereby there is diminished respect for the institution (especially when an umpire can be yanked off duty after being assigned due to old issues that were not resolved in time).
d) The governing power (ICC) -- because their ineptitude as well as toothlessness are exposed.

Its a bad situation -- we both agree with that.

You tend to blame the Indian team primarily. I tend to blame the ICC's mishandling primarily (if what I have read and heard about the Bucknor-Indian dynamics are true).

 

[Punchy Bassett]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

That was followed by Bucknor ridiculing Dravid on camera by mimicking licking and polishing an imaginary ball when Dravid came into bat in a VB series ODI after serving his suspension for ball tampering during the same series.

You say this was caught on camera? I've never seen the footage.....

 

[Father Jack]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

apparently Bucknor says he used to smell the ball as it was one way to tell if there had been non-legal substances used upon it. Indians saw this and assumed that he was racist.

They are pretty good at coming up with excuses after the fact. Did Bucknor ever get a decision wrong in favour of the Indians. One assumes not.

 

[TheStinger]

The one thing I have a problem with DRS is that the way it is being used by some players, if not most is to guess they are not out and take their chances. How many times have you seen players asking their batting partner if they looked out or the captain and wicket keeper having a conversation of how close it was (which I think should be addressed...if you don't appeal within 3 seconds then it is over, none of this ten second convo rubbish).

But which method of dismissal does this most affect? The LBW. They get hit on the pad and given out and they guess that they weren't out and review it. This method is so hit and miss.

The DRS was brought in to give players the opportunity to review when they know they are not out. Not guessing, they should know. When you are given out caught behind and you didn't hit it, you know you are not out so you review. When you are given out LBW but you got an inside edge on the ball, you know you are not out so you review.

Too many reviews are being wasted because batsmen are guessing and then when a review is really needed for a blatant wrong decision, they don't have any left. It's a little different for the bowling team reviews as you might be fairly confident someone hit the ball but you can't be sure. Some LBW's are fairly plumb and you wonder how the umpire didn't give it out originally so you review them as well.

But batting reviews are just becoming so ridiculous. Don't just guess. Sometimes you might get lucky, but most times you are just wasting a review.

 

[Crickfan]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

You say this was caught on camera? I've never seen the footage.....

I have -- I saw it live when CH 9 was covering the match. If memory serves me correct, couple of the commentators made a couple of funny comments too when Bucknor was caught on camera.

apparently Bucknor says he used to smell the ball as it was one way to tell if there had been non-legal substances used upon it.

Except Bucknor did not have a ball in his hand, if memory serves me correctly. He gestured to the other umpire, as if sharing a private joke while mimicking Dravid's actions -- smiling while he did so.

The consequent reports that I had read suggest that the Indians took exception to this public mocking by an umpire and protested the conduct to the ICC via the captain's series report.

Indians saw this and assumed that he was racist.

This is a non-sequitir

 

[Father Jack]

Re: India comes full circle - acxknowledges umpires are human after all

Except Bucknor did not have a ball in his hand, if memory serves me correctly. He gestured to the other umpire, as if sharing a private joke while mimicking Dravid's actions -- smiling while he did so.

The consequent reports that I had read suggest that the Indians took exception to this public mocking by an umpire and protested the conduct to the ICC via the captain's series report.



This is a non-sequitir

The report i read said that he did have a ball and just happened to be wearing his customary half-smile which the indians perceived as racism, which I agree is a non sequitur.

 

[beatnik]

this thread has morphed into a discussion of whether the Indian cricket team were harshly dealt with four years ago or, if you believe the recently-updated rhetoric, subjected to racially-motivated discrimination on the part of Bucknor

this type of escalation is exactly the sort of well-worn path that any earnest discussion about the behaviour or accountability of the Indian cricket team or the BCCI's role in modern cricket quickly takes and it has ruined India's credibility within world cricket

there are so many Indian players and officials ready to play the victim and, four years ago, the Australian media took the bait - hook, line and sinker!

after Australia's only coloured player was racially abused by Indian crowds, Harbajhan Singh was found guilty of doing the same on Australian soil...rather than accept that punishment (which followed due process) Indian players, officials and media launched an offensive against the Australian cricket team and against discriminatory umpiring from Bucknor

the near-hysterical lobbying, positioning and posturing succeeded in a) duping Australian media b) driving a wedge between Cricket Australia and some senior players and c) preventing a serial offender like Singh from doing his punishment

the problem for Indian cricket is that while they might have succeeded at the time, they also created a bit of a rod for their own back

Anil Kumble borrowed Bill Woodfull's famous quote: "only one team was playing in the spirit of the game" and by lecturing Australian cricketers and the rest of the cricketing world on ethics and morals, he painted a target on his own team's back

the cricketing public now look at incidents like this:

...and correctly see a cricket team (with notable exceptions like Rahul Dravid) which contains petulant, over-praised, overpaid, underperforming 'rock stars' and high-profile commentators on the payroll of the BCCI (note that neither Sunil G or Ravi Shastri dared showed their face in Australia this summer)

Kohli's gesture was a disgrace but it was not isolated

look at Ishant Sharma's behaviour when he gave Mike Hussey an absolute mouthful when Hussey was correctly given not out LBW (from square leg mind you!)...the way he carried on when correctly given out LBW in India's second dig this week was another example

Kumble himself is embroiled in a corruption/conflict of interest controversy after abusing his position in the cricket association for commercial gain

there are increasingly blatant examples of putting personal interests above those of the game

A more serious case of conflict of interest is currently being heard by the Supreme Court: it is former president AC Muthiah's petition that the current incumbent, N Srinivasan, cannot both be a BCCI official and the owner of an IPL franchise (his company owns Chennai Super Kings). The Supreme Court had allowed Srinivasan's elevation to the president's position to go ahead last month but said its decision was subject to the outcome of the larger petition.

In September 2008, shortly after the first IPL season, the BCCI had amended clause 6.2.4 of the regulations for players, team officials, umpires and administrators. Before the amendment the clause read: "No administrator shall have, directly or indirectly, any commercial interest in the matches and events conducted by the board." After the change, it read: "No administrator shall have directly or indirectly any commercial interest in any of the events of the BCCI, excluding IPL, Champions League and Twenty20."

http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/item/179534-questions-raised-over-kumbles-player-agency

so this is the sort of hotbed of cycnical sentiment that India has created for itself and it is the context surrounding discussion of their refusal to use of DRS

most sense that Indian cricket rejects DRS for their own tactical advantage, not for any real or deep-seated concerns for the game so the irony remains that the very team who brought about the umpiring controversy which brought the DRS system into being are now the ones who now reject it

Indian cricket cannot be surprised that they have become a laughing stock due to the hypocritical gap between their rhetoric and their actual behaviour

it's not the bitterness of the Symonds-Singh incident that will be the longest lived from that foul Test in 2008 - India's pious and self-righteous stance in that controversy will be what endures

Kumble's posturing in 2008 might have suited their ends at the time, but it will leave a sad legacy - young cricketers like Sharma and Kohli will have to try to live up to the moral high ground that Anil tried to claim and they will be made to look foolish every time they fail

peace.

 

[Gavin Excell]

^^^ Beatnik a very sensible post.

Their posiiton is also weakend by the fact they show no fight/stomach or intestinal fortitude when playing outside India. This further solidifies the impression of spoilt, pampered and glorified "rockstars' as you put it who go to water when away from the comforts, security and protection of home.

 

[strung_out7]

I dont always agree with what hawkeye shows and im still not convinced that when a bowler bowls a potential no ball its the actuall ball they show on the replay. Basically a decision is made based on whoever the broadcaster is and what they show, so how do we know that they dont have any hidden agendas?

[YOUTUBE]yS_naNHkJj0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Achilles Heel]

I dont always agree with what hawkeye shows and im still not convinced that when a bowler bowls a potential no ball its the actuall ball they show on the replay. Basically a decision is made based on whoever the broadcaster is and what they show, so how do we know that they dont have any hidden agendas?

[youtube]yS_naNHkJj0[/youtube]

Gould the umpire was shocked, Achin was out, bookies?

 

[sherb]

I dont always agree with what hawkeye shows and im still not convinced that when a bowler bowls a potential no ball its the actuall ball they show on the replay. Basically a decision is made based on whoever the broadcaster is and what they show, so how do we know that they dont have any hidden agendas?

[YOUTUBE]yS_naNHkJj0[/YOUTUBE]

Lol, that was plumb.

 

[BarneyBent]

I dont always agree with what hawkeye shows and im still not convinced that when a bowler bowls a potential no ball its the actuall ball they show on the replay. Basically a decision is made based on whoever the broadcaster is and what they show, so how do we know that they dont have any hidden agendas?

[youtube]yS_naNHkJj0[/youtube]

The footage doesn't stop when the ball hits the pad though. It stops just before. The ball continues on to hit the pad later, higher, and further across, where the icon appears. If you look at the closeup shot, where you can actually see exactly when the ball hits the pad, its position is just above the bottom edge of the bat's sticker. In the frozen shot, where the video claims the ball hits the pad, the ball is still below the sticker. It clearly hasn't hit the pad yet.

Just so you know, Hawk Eye/Eagle Eye/whatever they're calling it these days tracks the entire path of the ball, so you can't just chuck in a new final point to manipulate the result. You'd have to change every single position at which the ball was tracked. And that clearly hasn't happened, as the video uses the very same track to point out where they think the ball hit the batsman (but were a bit too early). It would have to be two different trackings/projections, and I doubt any broadcaster could do that at such short notice.

That said, I do find it immensely stupid that broadcasters are the ones that implement the technology. It should be done by employees of the ICC, under the supervision of the 3rd (or maybe 4th) umpire.

 

[Zephyr Effekt]

after Australia's only coloured player was racially abused by Indian crowds, Harbajhan Singh was found guilty of doing the same on Australian soil...rather than accept that punishment (which followed due process) Indian players, officials and media launched an offensive against the Australian cricket team and against discriminatory umpiring from Bucknor

i dont get it. because symonds was racially abused by indian crowds, singh should just accept the punishment, which followed due process off course (my word vs your word), thus requiring no offensive being launched against the australian cricket team by the indian players, officials and media, even though there was still the possibility that singh did not racially abuse symonds, all because symonds, australias only coloured player was racially abused by indian crowds.

the near-hysterical lobbying, positioning and posturing succeeded in a) duping Australian media b) driving a wedge between Cricket Australia and some senior players and c) preventing a serial offender like Singh from doing his punishment

maybe, just maybe, the possibility that singh did not racially abuse symonds was still a factor. then again, singh is a serial offender (for matters not involving racial abuse off course), & symonds was racially abused by indian crowds, so because of that, lets hang the little bastard.

Anil Kumble borrowed Bill Woodfull's famous quote: "only one team was playing in the spirit of the game" and by lecturing Australian cricketers and the rest of the cricketing world on ethics and morals, he painted a target on his own team's back

agree, quotes like those are just a joke.
also, it wont be the last time a player puts himself or his team above another from a ethical/moral point of view either.
i also have a feeling that you're going to place a level of influence rivaling fanaticism on this quote & refer back to it quite rigorously to justify strawman arguments.

the cricketing public now look at incidents like this:



...and correctly see a cricket team (with notable exceptions like Rahul Dravid) which contains petulant, over-praised, overpaid, underperforming 'rock stars' and high-profile commentators on the payroll of the BCCI (note that neither Sunil G or Ravi Shastri dared showed their face in Australia this summer)

drop the word 'correctly', & replace it with 'in my opinion'.

Kohli's gesture was a disgrace but it was not isolated

happens all the time by players from all teams.

look at Ishant Sharma's behaviour when he gave Mike Hussey an absolute mouthful when Hussey was correctly given not out LBW (from square leg mind you!)...the way he carried on when correctly given out LBW in India's second dig this week was another example

again, all the time by players from all teams.
have to say, you choice of examples is quite confusing, not sure if there is an actual point you're trying to make.

Kumble himself is embroiled in a corruption/conflict of interest controversy after abusing his position in the cricket association for commercial gain

there we go, didnt take long.
yes yes, discredit the player who lectured australians about ethics & morals.
again, whats the point?

there are increasingly blatant examples of putting personal interests above those of the game

im assuming you just mean indian examples.

most sense that Indian cricket rejects DRS for their own tactical advantage, not for any real or deep-seated concerns for the game so the irony remains that the very team who brought about the umpiring controversy which brought the DRS system into being are now the ones who now reject it

its always been a tactical move, pretty obvious i thought.
conditional intimidation, used by the majority of sporting teams worldwide, but only the indians are cheats for using it.

Indian cricket cannot be surprised that they have become a laughing stock due to the hypocritical gap between their rhetoric and their actual behaviour

thats funny, cause the hypocritical gab between your rhetoric and the actual truth is massive.

Kumble's posturing in 2008 might have suited their ends at the time, but it will leave a sad legacy - young cricketers like Sharma and Kohli will have to try to live up to the moral high ground that Anil tried to claim and they will be made to look foolish every time they fail

bamm....right on queue.
when did kumble's word become absolute & final for all things cricket in india?

 

[beatnik]

^^^
Zephyr

by trying to reply semantically on a line-by-line basis, you've actually missed the point entirely...

India are not the only team who behave badly, far from it - but they are the team who took a high moral ground during some of the ugliest Test cricket i have ever seen rather than take responsibility for their own role in that disgraceful series

Australia have always claimed to play as hard as possible within the letter of the rules and have never lectured about the 'spirit of the game' - therefore there is no hypocrisy whenever a player competes hard, oversteps the mark and accepts punishment with good grace

as a result of Kumble's melodramatic grandstanding (which was tactically useful at the time) the Indian cricket team lose credibility every time an Indian cricketer (past or present) behaves badly and is not subjected to that same high standard of preserving the 'spirit of the game'

as for your question: "when did kumble's word become absolute & final for all things cricket in india?"

Kumble was the national cricket captain and official team spokesperson at the time and the Indian cricket community at large did nothing to distance themselves from his claims

as a result, India's current team and current captain are still paying the price for Kumble and the Indian team's pious benchmark - they can hardly hope to escape cynicism at their hypocrisy in publicly contradicting their 2008 stance for tactical advantage in 2011

peace.