2012 List Management - Drafts, Trading and Delistings

[Igloo]

I just really don't want to trade for anyone. I'd prefer to use all of our picks in the draft. I'd be happy to trade players for picks (Grant, Sherman, etc). Wouldn't be shattered if we got Toy with one of our third round picks, but no one else.

Dead against trading guys like Lake and Williams.

 

[Nath09]

Oh please Nath, thats hypocritical bullshit. You wouldnt trade/delist Morris because it would be akin to shooting Bambi, you dont afford the same treatment to Lake because he doesnt have the same 'heart and soul' to the club disposition that Morris does. You said the club should be run as a business, using your own terminology would you keep on a terminally ill worker who wont be around much longer even if they recover or retire them and hire a brand shiney new worker? You want to treat these players like cattle dont back down about it when you have to make a tough decision and its time to put down the family pet.

I bet Ross Lyon used a lot of the same arguments that you used in getting rid of Luke Ball (also a spiritual leader as you use the term). 12 months down the line you take Ball out of Collingwood and put him back into a St Kilda jumper and they win flag number 2. The minute you start treating players as less than people you start pissing on your own leg.

So much wrong with that paragraph I don't know where to begin. I never said anything about a terminally-ill worker, it seems like you missed my point entirely with that analogy. I also fail to see any hypocrisy. I've maintained its complex but I believe firmly the club should be put above the player. If Morris was in Lake's position I would suggest the trade, with the caveat that it doesn't disrupt the fabric of the club (like Rischitelli being offered up by Brisbane). If it doesn't then trade Bambi. If trading Lake disrupts the fabric of the club significantly enough then I would say we shouldn't do it. You're being very black and white about this, it isn't as simple as loyalty vs. ruthlessness. I'm pointing out there there are multiple factors that need to be considered.

Straw-manning with words like "ruthless" and "treating our players like cattle/stocks/less than people" also doesn't really help your argument.

You can pick and choose examples like Fletcher and Ball all you like but there have been plenty of players that have been moved on in their prime for younger players to the clubs benefit (many that have been quoted in this thread). It's not a science and its complex.

All I'm saying is in this situation, I believe a Lake trade is the right thing to do. I think being dogmatic about false-notions around loyalty is not.

This back-forth also shouldn't derail the thread, I'm happy to agree-to-disagree on this one, dude.

 

[Blakesta123]

So much wrong with that paragraph I don't know where to begin. I never said anything about a terminally-ill worker, it seems like you missed my point entirely with that analogy. I also fail to see any hypocrisy. I've maintained its complex but I believe firmly the club should be put above the player. If Morris was in Lake's position I would suggest the trade, with the caveat that it doesn't disrupt the fabric of the club (like Rischitelli being offered up by Brisbane). If it doesn't then trade Bambi. If trading Lake disrupts the fabric of the club significantly enough then I would say we shouldn't do it. You're being very black and white about this, it isn't as simple as loyalty vs. ruthlessness. I'm pointing out there there are multiple factors that need to be considered.

Straw-manning with words like "ruthless" and "treating our players like cattle/stocks/less than people" also doesn't really help your argument.

You can pick and choose examples like Fletcher and Ball all you like but there have been plenty of players that have been moved on in their prime for younger players to the clubs benefit (many that have been quoted in this thread). It's not a science and its complex.

All I'm saying is in this situation, I believe a Lake trade is the right thing to do. I think being dogmatic about false-notions around loyalty is not.

This back-forth also shouldn't derail the thread, I'm happy to agree-to-disagree on this one, dude.

Agree, if it's in the best interest of the club, ship him off. If we got a good offer for Morris today, I'd say goodbye.
Yes, sending Morris off would be easier because he hasn't played in so long and yes sending Lake off is easy because he doesn't have the "through and through" appeal. I'd find it hard to send them off still, but for the benefit of the club I would trade them. They, and us even will be gone one day, but the club will still be here.

 

[fronkalicious]

You can't play jones, casboult and Cordy in the same team. Then we have roughie, Williams, lake and fletcher that can all play forward.

I hope it doesn't happen. We don't need another tall tall forward. We need a stringer type and again, I sincerely hope we take him at pick 6.

I do hope we delist panos and hill however.

 

[Shemp 54]

Personally, I don't think it's the club's job to be loyal to it's players but to do what it takes to be successful. Surely you're not suggesting that loyalty is more important than on-field success? It's also odd that the notion of loyalty only comes up when we're discussing players with Talent. What about loyalty to the not-so-gifted that get delisted every year. Hooper was reportedly in tears and loves the club but no one is bemoaning our lack of loyalty to him.

It's a complex issue that's for sure. Similarly you can't go trading every player under the sun because it can ruin the fabric of the club. That being said players like Montgomery, Croad and Tarrant have all returned to clubs that have traded them out with no hard feelings. I get the sense that a lot of supporters seem to over-emotionalise the act of trading.

Interesting ...... I kinda agree with what you say. [Though it is hard to see our players change clubs.] Also unfortunate that players who are traded don't get a send off from the club and fans - like one young guy we traded to the Saints a while ago, forget his name.
Loyalty by players means putting the club before their best interests.
But for the club to be loyal to players, they can't really put the players' interests before the club's - if it risks on field success anyway.
In some cases they could acknowledge their contributions better - including the not so gifted guys.

 

[Tommycash]

If we're going for Casboult maybe we're thinking about trading one of our younger rucks to the Giants? Unless Macca is going to get Casboult for a FF role alone, there isn't room for Cas, Ayce and Campbell. Perhaps one of the latter is going to be a sweetener for a deal with the Giants, I wouldn't be against that either as Casboult looks good. However this article in the age thinks it's unlikely he'll go anywhere else, footy is a funny game sometimes though. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/casboult-in-contract-talks-with-carlton-20120821-24ko5.html

I don't think we should talk aboiut trading Grant. He's the only one of our young forwards to have kicked more then 2 goals, He's shown he's good enough for the AFL even if he's just a super-sub. He certainly needs some consistency though.

 

[stefoid]

If we're going for Casboult maybe we're thinking about trading one of our younger rucks to the Giants? Unless Macca is going to get Casboult for a FF role alone, there isn't room for Cas, Ayce and Campbell. Perhaps one of the latter is going to be a sweetener for a deal with the Giants, I wouldn't be against that either as Casboult looks good. However this article in the age thinks it's unlikely he'll go anywhere else, footy is a funny game sometimes though. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/casboult-in-contract-talks-with-carlton-20120821-24ko5.html

I don't think we should talk aboiut trading Grant. He's the only one of our young forwards to have kicked more then 2 goals, He's shown he's good enough for the AFL even if he's just a super-sub. He certainly needs some consistency though.

Carlton will give him a spot on their list, but it doesnt hurt to ask. Keep them honest.

 

[Blakesta123]

Keep them honest.

Best thing I've heard! Haha. It's all we can do, inquire and ensure that they do the right thing by him, and if they don't, we are there

 

[josh the gent]

The Lake/Morris differences are simple, Lake has market value to a team in their prem window, Morris doesn't.

Nothing to do with favourite players or Lake's apparent attitude or anything like that.

Purely that i see more benefit in a pick 27 to 11 upgrade than having Brian as our FB for the next 3 years.

 

[Tallsies]

I'm one of the few that think Casboult would be a good pick up. Showed a fair bit in the games he's played, don't think Cordy and Campbell will ever be key forwards and Roughead is being developed as a key defender. Jones should hopefully bounce back next year so a forward line of Jones at CHF and Casboult at FF sounds ok in my opinion.

 

[doggies ftw]

What sort of player is Lee? Is he a FF type or a CHF type? Maybe we could get him as a sweetener to pick 6 for Martin.

 

[fronkalicious]

If Cordy can't develop as a forward, he has no place in the afl. He needs to be a forward pocket/2nd ruck type and I think he can be very effective in that role.

Jones as the work horse lead-up CHF, and a gun full forward. That's the perfect mix. I think stringer can be that guy.

 

[flipper83]

Article on Lee on the afl website. Apparently recruiters think he is worth a pick in the 20 - 40 range in this years draft. Would be good work out some sort of deal with GWS feel like the club hasn't capitalised on the GWS incentives enough so far. Not sure how many more 2nd division players they can trade though.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/148251/default.aspx

 

[Rookie]

Under the AFL rules, a club has two options with a third year rookie - delist him, or sign him on a permanent contract. If Casboult prices himself out of the market or demands a contract Carlton refuse to agree to, isn't he therefore delisted? And under free agency can't we pick up delisted players just by signing them?

Or, couldn't Casboult just walk to the PSD if the contract he is offered at the Blues isn't close to what we are offering?

I would consider him it we were picking him up for free but he came from obscurity, only got a game because he was the tallest guy left, and then played pretty well in five games. Not sure I'd want to trade for him.

We were also linked to Bell? Maybe we are just trying to stir the pot at Carlton.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Article on Lee on the afl website. Apparently recruiters think he is worth a pick in the 20 - 40 range in this years draft. Would be good work out some sort of deal with GWS feel like the club hasn't capitalised on the GWS incentives enough so far. Not sure how many more 2nd division players they can trade though.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/148251/default.aspx

Ten

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

We were also linked to Bell? Maybe we are just trying to stir the pot at Carlton.

It's simple - Carlton don't have room on their list for all their rookies, so an article said Bell was on the outer, and we were interested. Barrett, being the pretentious, dishonest twat he is fished for a story and went the other way, saying Casboult was on the outer. All we have is a cry-for-attention story with as many legs as Barrett would be left with if almost any footy fan got to him.

I'll kindly cop it if Casboult does move on, but for now I can't see him playing anywhere but Carlton (especially since they've offered him a contract).

 

[flipper83]

Ten

sorry meant how many they have left, they've already traded a lot so not sure if they have any more to make a deal with

 

[Tommycash]

I'm one of the few that think Casboult would be a good pick up. Showed a fair bit in the games he's played, don't think Cordy and Campbell will ever be key forwards and Roughead is being developed as a key defender. Jones should hopefully bounce back next year so a forward line of Jones at CHF and Casboult at FF sounds ok in my opinion.

I happen to agree in a way. Casboult seemed to do more in his few games then Ayce has in a few years. Campbell too hasn't shown that much. Would prefer Casboult over either of those two.

What sort of player is Lee? Is he a FF type or a CHF type? Maybe we could get him as a sweetener to pick 6 for Martin.

Unlikely, they only have one mature age recruit left, so they'll want to get something special for him. He's a bit of a utility. They played him down back for Claremont at the start of the season and then moved him forward after 8 rounds and he kicked 59 goals. He's a key position player.

 

[adam10]

Casboult interests me on the basis that he is a natural full-forward, something we desperately are crying for. He has natural forward instincts, is very strong and can pluck a contested mark. I'm really against ruck-men playing at full forward (Ayce/Tommy C), in saying that I don't mind if they have a little rest up forward every now and then but I really hope next season we have a natural CHF/FF combination.

Jones/Williams is what I hope we look to develop for next season. I know many of you are thinking that Williams isn't a natural BUT he knows how to play up there and lead into space etc. Tommy Campbell and Ayce they should be fighting for that second ruck-men spot if Macca decides to play with one, not the full-forward position. Forward instincts are very underrated and a player like Tory Dickson is one who represents the value of having these instincts.

 

[adam10]

All of this talk about recycled players is scaring the crap out of me.

Please oh please 'Dogs, don't do anything stupid...

Pathetic post to say the least.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Pathetic post to say the least.

You're really going to make a post just to call somebody else's opinion pathetic? That's pretty pathetic in itself.

All I'm saying is that now isn't the time to be using the top picks on mature age recruits. I don't care if we trade for a few, but there are a lot of rumours floating around about us chasing quite a lot of players. We're rebuilding, and I don't want to see us look for a quick fix like we have in the past. Picks 5 and 6 are compensation for a pretty bad year, and using them for stopgaps would be pretty stupid. Not saying we will do that, I'm just hoping we won't.

But carry on calling people's opinions pathetic, it's not like this is a forum.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Anyway, back on track. Can't wait to watch the TAC Cup/VFL finals tomorrow, going to be great to watch a heap of this year's probable draftees run out.

 

[adam10]

You're really going to make a post just to call somebody else's opinion pathetic? That's pretty pathetic in itself.

All I'm saying is that now isn't the time to be using the top picks on mature age recruits. I don't care if we trade for a few, but there are a lot of rumours floating around about us chasing quite a lot of players. We're rebuilding, and I don't want to see us look for a quick fix like we have in the past. Picks 5 and 6 are compensation for a pretty bad year, and using them for stopgaps would be pretty stupid. Not saying we will do that, I'm just hoping we won't.

But carry on calling people's opinions pathetic, it's not like this is a forum.

Recycled players..? Josh Toy a 20 year old who has suffered from homesickness and struggled to gain any momentum in a suns jersey, Levi Casboult a 22 year old key position player who showed a whole lot more compared to most our young forwards this season and Tyson who was pick 3 in last years draft which says it all. How does this make us chasing recycled players? Young players who clearly have the potential but maybe aren't getting the chance or isn't happening for them at their current club?

We are rebuilding but chasing players that are around the 19-23 bracket are more than just quick fixes. Who in the hell is suggesting we are going to use pick 5 and 6 for a stop-gap? We have a right to be annoyed and frustrated, we haven't seen a flag since 54 but God these posts annoy me, it's like we have never ever traded for a good player or drafted someone with talent?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Recycled players..? Josh Toy a 20 year old who has suffered from homesickness and struggled to gain any momentum in a suns jersey, Levi Casboult a 22 year old key position player who showed a whole lot more compared to most our young forwards this season and Tyson who was pick 3 in last years draft which says it all. How does this make us chasing recycled players? Young players who clearly have the potential but maybe aren't getting the chance or isn't happening for them at their current club?

We are rebuilding but chasing players that are around the 19-23 bracket are more than just quick fixes. Who in the hell is suggesting we are going to use pick 5 and 6 for a stop-gap? We have a right to be annoyed and frustrated, we haven't seen a flag since 54 but God these posts annoy me, it's like we have never ever traded for a good player or drafted someone with talent?

I was referring to the comments and rumours about players such as Jared Rivers, Matthew Bate, Bret Thornton, Lynden Dunn and the like. I've said a few times before that I wouldn't complain about getting Toy as long as he came for the right price. Casboult impresses me as a player but I've raised concerns about how we expect to keep about six talls on our list. Tyson is fantastic and I would love him at the 'Dogs, I just honestly can't see him leaving so have reserved my comments for when I hear more solid word that he's on the outer or wants out. I have no issue with these young players, I was referring to the recycling of fringe players to fill gaps.


There are a few suggesting that, but we have a limited amount of picks and a lot of rumours floating around, so we potentially could end up trading one or two of them. I don't think we will, but I hope we don't. Hence my "please don't do anything stupid" remark. I'm a passionate Bulldogs supporter and I don't want to watch us pick up players to plug the hole and guarantee us a run in the midfield for a while like we have tried to for the past 20 or so years. I'm not against trading, not at all, in fact I'd give up 6 for Tyson if there were legs to the rumours, and I'd gladly give a third rounder for Toy, and potentially a second rounder for Casboult (if we were sure we could fit him in) if any of them wanted to be here - I'm against trading for fringe players from other sides when we're in this sort of rebuilding phase.

 

[adam10]

I was referring to the comments and rumours about players such as Jared Rivers, Matthew Bate, Bret Thornton, Lynden Dunn and the like. I've said a few times before that I wouldn't complain about getting Toy as long as he came for the right price. Casboult impresses me as a player but I've raised concerns about how we expect to keep about six talls on our list. Tyson is fantastic and I would love him at the 'Dogs, I just honestly can't see him leaving so have reserved my comments for when I hear more solid word that he's on the outer or wants out. I have no issue with these young players, I was referring to the recycling of fringe players to fill gaps.


There are a few suggesting that, but we have a limited amount of picks and a lot of rumours floating around, so we potentially could end up trading one or two of them. I don't think we will, but I hope we don't. Hence my "please don't do anything stupid" remark. I'm a passionate Bulldogs supporter and I don't want to watch us pick up players to plug the hole and guarantee us a run in the midfield for a while like we have tried to for the past 20 or so years. I'm not against trading, not at all, in fact I'd give up 6 for Tyson if there were legs to the rumours, and I'd gladly give a third rounder for Toy, and potentially a second rounder for Casboult (if we were sure we could fit him in) if any of them wanted to be here - I'm against trading for fringe players from other sides when we're in this sort of rebuilding phase.

I have barely seen any remarks on links with us to the players you mentioned.. especially Lynden Dunn. Made your comment sound pathetic looking at it from the neutral and seeing the last 20 or so pages we have been talking about picking up players such as Toy, Casboult, Tyson.