2012 List Management - Drafts, Trading and Delistings

[Igloo]

Casboult getting seriously overrated in this thread. He's played 6 games and is an inconsistent kick (aka, bad kick). Nothing we don't already have in Jones and Cordy. Would be pissed off if we offered a 2nd round pick for him.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I have barely seen any remarks on links with us to the players you mentioned.. especially Lynden Dunn. Made your comment sound pathetic looking at it from the neutral and seeing the last 20 or so pages we have been talking about picking up players such as Toy, Casboult, Tyson.

There are quite a few rumours floating around, and most of the credible ones with suitable evidence and sources have been collated in this thread (third post), which names us as possible homes for most of those players. No, they may not all be true, but there has been a bit of evidence linking us with them, hence why I referred to the rumours floating around having me a little paranoid.

I can understand that it may have come across wrong given that I wasn't referring to the rumours on the thread and moreso on BF in general, and I apologise for that; but I still think making a point of posting just to call somebody's opinion pathetic is a little unnecessary.

 

[adam10]

Casboult getting seriously overrated in this thread. He's played 6 games and is an inconsistent kick (aka, bad kick). Nothing we don't already have in Jones and Cordy. Would be pissed off if we offered a 2nd round pick for him.

He's not going to be a saviour and I for one am not his biggest fan. But he has natural forward talent unlike Cordy who I see his future as a ruckmen. I agree 2nd rounder is too much but saying he's nothing we don't already have is a bit of a stretch, we don't have a natural full-forward.

 

[Tommycash]

I think it's important we recognise that Macca isn't going to do dumb trades for older players. We'll either get kids with potential or draft players. Naturally we're unlikely to get any kids starring in their teams or 50 game player kids just because we're undoubtedly going to use our high picks for the best the draft has to offer.

There's not much point even mentioning any potential trades for older players because Macca has categorically ruled it out. We're in a very different period to what we were when we were trading in players from other clubs that we thought could work for us and help push us to a flag immediately.

 

[Igloo]

He's not going to be a saviour and I for one am not his biggest fan. But he has natural forward talent unlike Cordy who I see his future as a ruckmen. I agree 2nd rounder is too much but saying he's nothing we don't already have is a bit of a stretch, we don't have a natural full-forward.

That's where we differ then. I see Cordy as a FF.
If we want another key forward, we should look to get one that has "star" potential. Not someone who can just do a solid job. Would prefer to draft our own as well. That's why I hope we get Boyd next year.

 

[Blakesta123]

Recycled players..? Josh Toy a 20 year old who has suffered from homesickness and struggled to gain any momentum in a suns jersey

I just hope we aren't making excuses for him out of hope. I did the same when we were going to get Sherman, made excuses to myself as to why we should get him.

 

[doggies ftw]

Does anyone know if Lee is more of a traditional FF or a CHF?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I think it's important we recognise that Macca isn't going to do dumb trades for older players. We'll either get kids with potential or draft players. Naturally we're unlikely to get any kids starring in their teams or 50 game player kids just because we're undoubtedly going to use our high picks for the best the draft has to offer.

There's not much point even mentioning any potential trades for older players because Macca has categorically ruled it out. We're in a very different period to what we were when we were trading in players from other clubs that we thought could work for us and help push us to a flag immediately.

A lot of coaches categorically rule things out and then go back on their word. Just look at Rodney Eade - categorically says he's out of the running for the Port job, senior Port officials say he's still very much in the running. I'm not branding Macca as a liar, not at all; it's just a little odd how these rumours keep popping up. People understand that the Bulldogs aren't going for older players, so for these player movement rumours to keep coming up they have to have at least a little bit of credibility for people to accept them.

 

[Tommycash]

That's where we differ then. I see Cordy as a FF.
If we want another key forward, we should look to get one that has "star" potential. Not someone who can just do a solid job. Would prefer to draft our own as well. That's why I hope we get Boyd next year.

Watch Casboults highlights, http://www.carltonfc.com.au/cfc tv/tabid/10443/contentid/491115/default.aspx. For a guy who's played 6 games and has highlights like that, I think it's something quite outrageous to say he's nothing more then solid. If Ayce had highlights like that from his several years of playing I'd agree we don't need him, but I really must insist you watch that.

The point is not that he can do that all the time, of course not, the point is if he's 22 and can do that some of the time then he's ahead of Ayce and Campbell at the same age. I'm not overly fussed though, he's likely to remain a blue and in all likelihood Ayce should come on after a full pre-season. I don't really think Campbell is as good as some people think, but with big men it is often a waiting game so I'm willing to be patient. It would be nice if we didn't have to be though.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

The point is not that he can do that all the time, of course not, the point is if he's 22 and can do that some of the time then he's ahead of Ayce and Campbell at the same age. I'm not overly fussed though, he's likely to remain a blue and in all likelihood Ayce should come on after a full pre-season. I don't really think Campbell is as good as some people think, but with big men it is often a waiting game so I'm willing to be patient. It would be nice if we didn't have to be though.

The problem is, drafting Casboult would be pretty much a message to the likes of Campbell and Cordy that we're giving up on them when they've only been on the list a few years between them, and Cordy's had significant injury worries. It's a bit of a message to the younger players that says, "We'll persist with you for two years but if you don't show enough you'll be replaced by someone who develops faster." Not a good message to send.

In addition, player development is kinda like a motor race between two completely different cars. The car which accelerates faster may not have a better top speed than the other, which accelerates slower. I think Cordy is going to take a bit more time than Casboult will, but he needs us to persist with him.

I'm not saying don't pick Casboult, not at all - pick him for the right reasons, though. Don't pick him because Cordy hasn't shown enough. That's an admittance of defeat, and it's not right to treat a 22 year old who's really only had one full pre-season that way.

 

[Blakesta123]

The problem is, drafting Casboult would be pretty much a message to the likes of Campbell and Cordy that we're giving up on them when they've only been on the list a few years between them, and Cordy's had significant injury worries. It's a bit of a message to the younger players that says, "We'll persist with you for two years but if you don't show enough you'll be replaced by someone who develops faster." Not a good message to send.

In addition, player development is kinda like a motor race between two completely different cars. The car which accelerates faster may not have a better top speed than the other, which accelerates slower. I think Cordy is going to take a bit more time than Casboult will, but he needs us to persist with him.

I'm not saying don't pick Casboult, not at all - pick him for the right reasons, though. Don't pick him because Cordy hasn't shown enough. That's an admittance of defeat, and it's not right to treat a 22 year old who's really only had one full pre-season that way.

I don't think it's like an admittance of defeat, but more-so like betting on more horses in a race, more chances of a winner. Hopefully players like Cordy etc see him as a threat and work harder than ever, rather than seeing it as us giving up on them.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I don't think it's like an admittance of defeat, but more-so like betting on more horses in a race, more chances of a winner. Hopefully players like Cordy etc see him as a threat and work harder than ever, rather than seeing it as us giving up on them.

Fair enough, I can see that. Though my point is less based on drafting a faster-developing player than it is on the type of player Casboult is - he's a ruck/KPP. Now we have Cordy, Roughead, Minson (I guess you can sorta count him), Campbell, Panos, Hill, Redpath, Jones and even Skinner (development ongoing) who can play a role similar to that. Adding Casboult to that list would be the writing on the wall for those players. Cordy, Roughead, Campbell, Jones and Hill, in my opinion, all could have a future in that role, and could develop into very handy players as Casboult could - but his addition would be the writing on the wall for at least one of those guys. I'm not against "betting on more horses in a race", to use your expression, but I think there is a better race to bet on right now. I'd rather bet on four or five outside mids, or half-back runners, than I would on 4-8 ruck/KPPs.

 

[zephskinner26]

Question for those wanting to trade Lake...Where are the calls to trade Dale Morris as well?

He is a much better leader and influence of the youngsters

 

[Blakesta123]

If he came cheap, I'd add him. The list you have has become stagnant, or complacent. A new threat would perhaps show us something new in those players.

 

[Tommycash]

Does anyone know if Lee is more of a traditional FF or a CHF?

He is a utility can play either really, a key position player on both sides of the field. But Claremont use him as their Full Forward.

 

[doggies ftw]

He is a utility can play either really, a key position player on both sides of the field. But Claremont use him as their Full Forward.

Thanks, do you think he would be able to play round one next year after a big preseason? I could see a forward line like this really working okay.

Smith Jones Higgins
Grant Lee Dahlhaus

I also think Grant could thrive in this forward line too, with Jones and Lee the key points and Grant as the third tall

Also is Lee a decent kick for goal?

Pick 6 for Martin and Lee, make it happen!

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

If he came cheap, I'd add him. The list you have has become stagnant, or complacent. A new threat would perhaps show us something new in those players.

I think this is where we disagree. My thoughts on the players mentioned:
Cordy: Has a good future; great pace and agility for a big guy and a strong mark. Has had his early career affected by injury so is taking a bit longer to develop. Can definitely see him as a FF.
Roughead: Has definitely not stagnated. Showed a heap in defense this year, and is still a pretty good backup ruckman, if needed.
Minson: Not much needs to be said; still improving and is the present.
Campbell: Hasn't shown a heap in the forward line as yet, but it's his first year and he definitely improved. Showed a heap in the ruck; I have no doubts he's a future #1 ruckman.
Panos: Probably has stagnated a bit, not going to deny that.
Hill: Is still steadily improving. I can see him having somewhat of a future in AFL, but probably not in the league of some of the others mentioned.
Redpath: Haven't seen enough; first year + injuries.
Jones: Had a bad year, but still has a lot of potential. See him as more of a CHF, though. Can backup ruck if needed.
Skinner: Showed massive amounts of improvement in each match he played. Still confident he can become a decent player, and his third-man-up abilities in the ruck are great.

 

[Tommycash]

The problem is, drafting Casboult would be pretty much a message to the likes of Campbell and Cordy that we're giving up on them when they've only been on the list a few years between them, and Cordy's had significant injury worries. It's a bit of a message to the younger players that says, "We'll persist with you for two years but if you don't show enough you'll be replaced by someone who develops faster." Not a good message to send.

In addition, player development is kinda like a motor race between two completely different cars. The car which accelerates faster may not have a better top speed than the other, which accelerates slower. I think Cordy is going to take a bit more time than Casboult will, but he needs us to persist with him.

I'm not saying don't pick Casboult, not at all - pick him for the right reasons, though. Don't pick him because Cordy hasn't shown enough. That's an admittance of defeat, and it's not right to treat a 22 year old who's really only had one full pre-season that way.

I think it's fair to say that's not thinking very reasonably. It's not like we'll de-list these kids when we get Casboult. It's like the other chap said, you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket. And our basket is not only not full, but the eggs that are in it don't look like they'll keep us through the winter. These eggs could well hatch into something great, but getting in a player to take the immediate pressure to perform off them isn't the worst thing we could do.

And if it so happens that we get in a player that outshines who we already have we should be happy with that, I actually must admit your argument seems nonsense to me. I understand that developing what we have is good, but getting in better players is not something we should refuse to do. I seriously doubt that some our players will just give up because we've got another player in.

 

[zephskinner26]

That's where we differ then. I see Cordy as a FF.
If we want another key forward, we should look to get one that has "star" potential. Not someone who can just do a solid job. Would prefer to draft our own as well. That's why I hope we get Boyd next year.

So you see Ayce Cordy as a full foward? So you see ayce cordy as a full foward?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

And if it so happens that we get in a player that outshines who we already have we should be happy with that, I actually must admit your argument seems nonsense to me. I understand that developing what we have is good, but getting in better players is not something we should refuse to do. I seriously doubt that some our players will just give up because we've got another player in.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion. I've got nothing against bringing in a player who outshines others, that is absolute nonsense and would only work to make an average team, not a premiership team. My issue is probably worsened by the fact that there are only a couple of spots for players like that in a team, on a restricted list. We need to bring in some fresh talent to fill the gaps that we already have first, rather than bolstering ruck stocks that look like they could develop into a very decent group. That said, I think I've been misinterpreted - I'm not against taking Casboult, I just don't want us to have the "Oh he's taken three years to get to this point whereas this guy's only taken one! Let's recruit that guy and shove the player we've spent three years on down in the reserves. Ooh, sparkles!" mentality, that's all. A lot of the competition's most accomplished ruckmen have taken years to develop, and I just don't want to see Cordy losing games because we recruited someone who developed a bit quicker with a career not plagued by injuries. I see more potential in Cordy than I do in Casboult to be completely honest, but that's where I'm going to differ to a lot of people.

 

[StringyDog]

Watch Casboults highlights, http://www.carltonfc.com.au/cfc tv/tabid/10443/contentid/491115/default.aspx. For a guy who's played 6 games and has highlights like that, I think it's something quite outrageous to say he's nothing more then solid. If Ayce had highlights like that from his several years of playing I'd agree we don't need him, but I really must insist you watch that.

Notice how nearly all the highlights are the contested marking and not the goalkicking, it's because he kicks the ball worse than Jones, if he had 6 shots on goal 2 would be goals 2 points and 2 out on the full. You could easilly put a similar package for Jones together.

 

[Tommycash]

Thanks, do you think he would be able to play round one next year after a big preseason? I could see a forward line like this really working okay.

Smith Jones Higgins
Grant Lee Dahlhaus

I also think Grant could thrive in this forward line too, with Jones and Lee the key points and Grant as the third tall

Also is Lee a decent kick for goal?

Pick 6 for Martin and Lee, make it happen!

Yes, Lee is a very good kick. I think he probably could be thrown into the deep end. Naturally he might not set the world alight, but in my mind he is definitely worth the punt. If we could get Martin and Lee for 6 I'd be one happy man.

 

[cecil]

So you see Ayce Cordy as a full foward? So you see ayce cordy as a full foward?

Dude, we get it! You don't like Ayce

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yes, Lee is a very good kick. I think he probably could be thrown into the deep end. Naturally he might not set the world alight, but in my mind he is definitely worth the punt. If we could get Martin and Lee for 6 I'd be one happy man.

Unfortunately, if GWS want 5 & 6 for Martin, I can't see 6 for Lee (top 30ish pick) and Martin sitting with them at all.

 

[Tommycash]

Fair enough, I respect your opinion. I've got nothing against bringing in a player who outshines others, that is absolute nonsense and would only work to make an average team, not a premiership team. My issue is probably worsened by the fact that there are only a couple of spots for players like that in a team, on a restricted list. We need to bring in some fresh talent to fill the gaps that we already have first, rather than bolstering ruck stocks that look like they could develop into a very decent group. That said, I think I've been misinterpreted - I'm not against taking Casboult, I just don't want us to have the "Oh he's taken three years to get to this point whereas this guy's only taken one! Let's recruit that guy and shove the player we've spent three years on down in the reserves. Ooh, sparkles!" mentality, that's all. A lot of the competition's most accomplished ruckmen have taken years to develop, and I just don't want to see Cordy losing games because we recruited someone who developed a bit quicker with a career not plagued by injuries. I see more potential in Cordy than I do in Casboult to be completely honest, but that's where I'm going to differ to a lot of people.

Very much fair enough, in fact you raise a point that is important. Why would we use a relatively high draft pick to get a player whose position is pretty adequately filled already. I'd like to think Casboult could be made into purely a a Forward, but perhaps not. Many people don't rate him that highly anyway. I guess too we are forgetting that our tall young guys this year were being matched with the best defenders in the league, no more Hall to take the best defender. Maybe they'll have a few tricks to help them this time round.