List Mgmt. 2014 list discussion - drafts, free agents, trades, retirees, delistings and more

[Cattery]

Does anybody want to argue West wouldn't have had more of an impact in the middle,

Well you have your answer, Cursed_Cat already has, and have a feeling VEEDUBS won't be far behind.

Makes you wonder how big a flogging we have to get in the ruck before some posters will agree that the MC made a blunder.

 

[catempire]

Sandilands handed Bailey and Hale a similar hiding in the GF to the one he handed Blicavs and Vardy in the EF.

The difference? Hawthorn's midfield stood up, ours didn't. West would have made bugger all difference.

 

[Lana]

Racks up an absolute crap load of uncontested possession (not so much contested), but ordinary disposal is a knock on that and seems pretty soft as well. I think that we could fix some of that but I would only pick him if we trade Varcoe for either a player or a high draft pick, then pick up Lucas for a low one (3rd-4th rounder) as I could see Lucas replacing Varcoe in the team (and not as a whipping boy but in terms of as an uncontested outside runner), but Murdoch, Smedts etc would probably be better prospects (though they don't get anywhere near as much ball).

I see lucas as an almost identical player to Duncan, he'll be an solid outside mid, often finds himself with heaps of space, takes a lot of uncontested marks, not slow but not fast paced. Saying all of that we don't need another player like that

 

[Partridge]

Whether or not he's a 'plodder,' West is at least a ruckman.

Our 'rucks' in the finals were Vardy, a key forward, and Blicavs, a tall athletic guy who is most certainly not a ruckman and who may be a star in two years but is equally as likely to not be on our list.

I agree with Partridge that not selecting West that day was absolute insanity.

When Hawkins was a late out, it should have been West in as number one ruck and Vardy to the forward line. Does anybody want to argue West wouldn't have had more of an impact in the middle, and that Vardy wouldn't have done more than Walker up forward that day?

Thought not.

The amazing thing is, even after the fact, even after our rucks were just annihilated, the only guy who gets criticised is the one who didn't play. The two guys who were belted upside down and sideways? Crickets chirping. Nothing.

I understand that we are all biased towards our favourites. But you have to take the blinkers off and admit when they have a poor one, or need improvement. Footscore put me right after the Richmond game when it showed pretty clearly that although Guthrie had done some nice things - he leaked goals. Couldn't argue with the evidence either.

This with West is one a whole different level. We get smashed in the ruck, worse than in any game I can remember, so badly it almost singlehandedly cost us the game. The only responses possible would be:

A. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, and the MC picked the wrong combination.
B. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, but the MC picked the right combination.
C. Ignore that our ruckman got thrashed, completely shut your eyes and ignore how putrid not just one but two favourites were, and instead blame the whipping boy. Who wasn't even playing.

You can guess what everyone's favourite choice is. It should be either A or B. Even B is defensible. But it seems the one absolute article of faith on BigFooty is "Thou Shalt Not Criticise Board Favourites". And that's the one that everyone has jumped on.

 

[caitsith01]

Does anybody want to argue West wouldn't have had more of an impact in the middle

Yes.

Allow his last senior game to do the talking:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_match_statistics?mid=5740

 

[Partridge]

People may point to his hit-out averages.
People with eyes may respond that it's one thing to get your hand to the ball, quite another thing to actually palm it to your team's advantage.

That's fair enough. How often to Vardy and Blicavs do that as a matter of interest? Wasn't often against Fremantle I know that much - Blicavs only won 7 hitouts, and Vardy was even worse with 6.

 

[caitsith01]

B. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, but the MC picked the right combination.

This is what most people without the memory of a goldfish think, in my experience. West was very poor in some games in 2013 and the game linked to above (one kick, 6 handballs, ffs), his last for the year, seems to have been the effort which finally caused the match committee to give up on him.

Clearly the thinking was that with our actual rucks (McInjured and Simpson) both unavailable, we were going to lose the actual ruck, so we might as well go with the combo that gave us something different and useful around the ground (Vardy + Blitz).

 

[Cursed Cat]

So, even after the Fremantle obliteration, do you think Vardy AND Blicavs are better ruckmen? Right now?

If West is a plodder I'd hate to think what the other two are.

Than West ?
Definitely.

He's insipid; when he actually does manage to get the ball his disposal is horrible, he couldn't take a mark around the ground to save himself and his actual ruckwork is completely negligible - personally I've seen enough of him in the hoops. He's the kind of player that makes opposition players walk taller.
West averaged less than 10 disposals per game in 2013 - 2.3 of which were clangers, on average !

Happy for him that he was able to play a role in the 2011 premiership, but his brief window is well and truly shut.

 

[Cattery]

The amazing thing is, even after the fact, even after our rucks were just annihilated, the only guy who gets criticised is the one who didn't play. The two guys who were belted upside down and sideways? Crickets chirping. Nothing.

I understand that we are all biased towards our favourites. But you have to take the blinkers off and admit when they have a poor one, or need improvement. Footscore put me right after the Richmond game when it showed pretty clearly that although Guthrie had done some nice things - he leaked goals. Couldn't argue with the evidence either.

This with West is one a whole different level. We get smashed in the ruck, worse than in any game I can remember, so badly it almost singlehandedly cost us the game. The only responses possible would be:

A. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, and the MC picked the wrong combination.
B. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, but the MC picked the right combination.
C. Ignore that our ruckman got thrashed, completely shut your eyes and ignore how putrid not just one but two favourites were, and instead blame the whipping boy. Who wasn't even playing.

You can guess what everyone's favourite choice is. It should be either A or B. Even B is defensible. But it seems the one absolute article of faith on BigFooty is "Thou Shalt Not Criticise Board Favourites". And that's the one that everyone has jumped on.

Top post mate, but flogging a dead horse I'm afraid, we apparently know for a fact that West wouldn't have made an ounce of difference, despite the deplorable efforts of the two players who kept him out.

 

[Nicko29]

I have to agree that Vardy and Blicavs was the right ruck combo after Simpson went down, and that I completely agreed with the decision of our MC to play them over West during finals at the time, but knowing now that Blicavs played the last month or more with a broken wrist I have to question the sanity of the MC to not play a fit West over him. This along with the rushing back of Varcoe and not giving Walker/Kersten more game time during the season when Hawkins was struggling has seriously questioned my faith in the MC

 

[Partridge]

Than West ?
Definitely.

He's insipid; when he actually does manage to get the ball his disposal is horrible, he couldn't take a mark around the ground to save himself and his actual ruckwork is completely negligible - personally I've seen enough of him in the hoops. He's the kind of player that makes opposition players walk taller.
West averaged less than 10 disposals per game in 2013 - 2.3 of which were clangers, on average !

Happy for him that he was able to play a role in the 2011 premiership, but his brief window is well and truly shut.

Based on the finals series I'd rather West as a ruckman every single day than Blicavs under any circumstances, and right now than Vardy too. Vardy at least shows glimpses and you can see why they're throwing him in; Blicavs got exposed hugely during September and romantic stories only get you so far.

 

[Cursed Cat]

That's fair enough. How often to Vardy and Blicavs do that as a matter of interest? Wasn't often against Fremantle I know that much - Blicavs only won 7 hitouts, and Vardy was even worse with 6.

Yup, and yet despite the paucity of hit-outs on the day, I can still remember each of the 2 ruckmen directly palming the ball to a Geelong player in space - West would be lucky to do that with his 21 hit outs per match. Maybe half a dozen times. Per season.

Moving forward, I would definitely prefer Vardy and/or Blicavs on the list ahead of Trent West.

I was slightly surprised the MC had the guts to go with Vardy/Blicavs in the QF - I know most on this board were putting forward the combo of West/Blicavs or West/Vardy, in fact I reckon I might have been the only person on one particular thread who even raised the possibility. But of all the 'what-ifs' going around my head after we missed the GF by a measley kick, the possibility of Trent West leading us to the flag never once entered my thoughts - it just wasn't gonna happen.

 

[Partridge]

This is what most people without the memory of a goldfish think, in my experience. West was very poor in some games in 2013 and the game linked to above (one kick, 6 handballs, ffs), his last for the year, seems to have been the effort which finally caused the match committee to give up on him.

Clearly the thinking was that with our actual rucks (McInjured and Simpson) both unavailable, we were going to lose the actual ruck, so we might as well go with the combo that gave us something different and useful around the ground (Vardy + Blitz).

Which is inexplicable. I was at the game and his ruckwork was very good. Especially early. He like everyone else got shuffled forward in the second half as Hawkins was immobile. But if you are going to slam ruckmen for only getting 7 touches you might want to ignore Vardy and Blicavs' stats from a few games this year.

 

[Partridge]

Sandilands handed Bailey and Hale a similar hiding in the GF to the one he handed Blicavs and Vardy in the EF.

The difference? Hawthorn's midfield stood up, ours didn't. West would have made bugger all difference.

Funny, early in the season when we were losing the clearances it was all West's fault. Now it's the midfielders. I guess anything rather than blame Vardy and Blicavs.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

No my meaning of "we don't know that" was in response to Veedubs stating definitively, as others have, that West wouldn't have done better. I would argue pretty strongly he would have. He has in the past.

i will respectfully agree to disagree

 

[Partridge]

Yup, and yet despite the paucity of hit-outs on the day, I can still remember each of the 2 ruckmen directly palming the ball to a Geelong player in space - West would be lucky to do that with his 21 hit outs per match. Maybe half a dozen times. Per season.

First half, Round 23 v Brisbane at Geelong. Wasn't that long ago either.

It doesn't matter, they'll play Bartel in the ruck ahead of him. They want Blicavs to become a ruckman or whatever he's meant to be - based on September it's certainly not a footballer. He already cost us 2 goals in the Prelim through basic and appalling stuffups, so I can't wait for more next year while we all wax lyrical about what a great story it is.

 

[Cattery]

Which is inexplicable. I was at the game and his ruckwork was very good. Especially early.

Wasn't that the match where he had 25 hitouts, 40% of which were to advantage? Not bad for a bloke who apparently only gets 6 hitouts to advantage per year.

 

[Partridge]

Wasn't that the match where he had 25 hitouts, 40% of which were to advantage? Not bad for a bloke who apparently only gets 6 hitouts to advantage per year.

You mustn't introduce facts into the argument.

 

[Cattery]

You mustn't introduce facts into the argument.

My mistake.

We can argue about this till blue in the face I guess, the fact is, as you pointed out, that people have their favourites and non favourites and nothing will change their minds.

Blicavs won't be criticised under any circumstances by most posters, Varcoe the same, yet West is a liability who costs us games, even the ones he doesn't participate in apparently.

 

[Cursed Cat]

A. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, and the MC picked the wrong combination.
B. Admit our ruckman got thrashed, but the MC picked the right combination.
C. Ignore that our ruckman got thrashed, completely shut your eyes and ignore how putrid not just one but two favourites were, and instead blame the whipping boy. Who wasn't even playing.

as someone who disagreed with your assertions regarding West/Vardy/Blicavs, let me respond to the part of your post that I've snipped : none of those three players would be listed among my 'favourites' - all three have deficiencies.
I'm not convinced Vardy is a KF at all - 2nd ruckman is probably his best position. Blicavs, too early to judge imo, he's played 30 games of footy in his life. The worry is that there may not actually be a permanent role for him in the team.

And yet imo, those two at least have scope for improvement, I've seen more than enough of Trent West to know that he has reached his very low ceiling.
There's no way Trent West would have provided a lick of difference. He's just not good enough.

I'm happy to concede Vardy and Blicavs were carved up against Freo, no question.
But I think the MC went with the right combination; West had been horribly out of form all year, and with the other two there was at least the suspicion/hope that either of them *might* pull out a big game and surprise. Didn't happen. Still, I know what West would have given; bugger-all, as he has throughout his career. 54 games in 8 seasons says it all.

But if you are going to slam ruckmen for only getting 7 touches you might want to ignore Vardy and Blicavs' stats from a few games this year.

yeah, but not if you wanna compare them to West, in which case they would come out quite favourably.
West had a crap game cuz he only got 6 touches in his last game ? He only averaged 6 effective disposals per game for the season !

He did himself no favours, it was his spot to lose and lose it he did.

I think the bigger point though is that once Dawson Simpson went down, we were always gonna struggle to find any combination that would work with the three fit ruckmen we had to choose from; two very inexperienced, one a plodder.

All three are essentially 2nd-string ruckmen.
If I had to choose one of the three to perform that role on a regular basis, it would be Vardy.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Well you have your answer, Cursed_Cat already has, and have a feeling VEEDUBS won't be far behind.

Makes you wonder how big a flogging we have to get in the ruck before some posters will agree that the MC made a blunder.

you seriously believe that is why we lost the QF?

 

[rooie]

the problem with these sorts of debates is they have to be based on statistics, as otherwise all we hear is 'well i watched the game and thought this' etc. you can't make an argument based on your thoughts and feelings, you can state an opinion, but not persist to argue the point as it isn't based on evidence, only your memory and feelings.

so to put the details in front of us clearly the av stats in 2013;
player: Blitz Vardy West Walker Simpson
Kicks: 4.4 4.5 5.8 4.7 3.7
hand: 6.5 4.3 3.9 3.7 6.2
marks: 2.9 2.9 1.8 2.7 3.5
hitouts: 10.8 11.3 21.4 2.3 29.8


so as long as the above table displays ok... it is clear people are pumping up vardy and blitz around the ground value ahead of west, because the stats don't support it at all. in fact all our rucks average only around 10 touches a game, the only difference is west and simpson actually win hitous the other 3 dont.

now to say 'well i think west never hits to advantage but blitz and vardy do' needs to be backed up with data people. i dont know where to get that from, so if someone can show it that would be great.

based on the above, clearly the best option for finals would have been west and vardy.

 

[Cattery]

you seriously believe that is why we lost the QF?

Did I say that?

What I said (before the game) was that the MC picked the wrong combination, and nothing I saw in the game has made me change my mind.

 

[Cursed Cat]

It doesn't matter, they'll play Bartel in the ruck ahead of him.

I don't think it will be an issue next year.

 

[Partridge]

I don't think it will be an issue next year.

Agree, it won't be.

If they can keep Simpson in a bubble from now until March that's fine with me. Going to be fascinating to see what they do with Vardy. I just hope wherever they play him they let him develop in one role.