Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[timtamWB]

To be fair, Howard's shown more than Fuller has at AFL level. Far too early to make that call.

You don't pick up a 23 year old for him to play VFL.

 

[Dav1d]

Does anyone know the average age of our list now? Was curious/

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

You don't pick up a 23 year old for him to play VFL.

You don't select anybody for them to play VFL. You select them expecting to play AFL and be good players - except every draft is packed with failures. Just because he's 23 doesn't mean he's immune to this. You can't say that Fuller is an upgrade on Howard because Howard has been shit at AFL level and Fuller has been good at SANFL level; two totally different situations.

I don't disagree that Howard is in trouble - had I been in charge he and Greenwood would both be gone. I just don't think you can say that a player who hasn't played a single game of AFL is better than a fringe player who has shown little; at this stage, Howard has shown a lot more at AFL level because Fuller has shown zero.

 

[Kelvin31]

Fight to the death, Pearce vs Picken. Vale Pearce.

Also it's more than Howard out Fuller in. While I agree in that their positions are the same, Fuller has a big chance of playing AFL and actually becoming a part of the Dogs, Howard played 1 game this year. Massive upgrade on Howard.

yeah agree, I wasn't comparing Howard to Fuller since Howard can barely get on the park, but any chance Howard had of cementing his spot in 2014 was swiftly evaporated last night (unless Macca sees Howard on a wing HFF, he is on this ice).

Nothing better than players fighting each other for the final spots on Lines.. thats what creates Premiership winning teams.
.

 

[timtamWB]

You don't select anybody for them to play VFL. You select them expecting to play AFL and be good players - except every draft is packed with failures. Just because he's 23 doesn't mean he's immune to this. You can't say that Fuller is an upgrade on Howard because Howard has been shit at AFL level and Fuller has been good at SANFL level; two totally different situations.

I don't disagree that Howard is in trouble - had I been in charge he and Greenwood would both be gone. I just don't think you can say that a player who hasn't played a single game of AFL is better than a fringe player who has shown little; at this stage, Howard has shown a lot more at AFL level because Fuller has shown zero.

I completely understand where you're coming from. But tell me this, are you more confident of Fuller playing and performing next year, or Howard playing and performing next year?

 

[TBOW]

You don't select anybody for them to play VFL. You select them expecting to play AFL and be good players - except every draft is packed with failures. Just because he's 23 doesn't mean he's immune to this.

Yep, Sydney took Dean Towers with their first pick last year & he wasn't able to crack a game in an aging backline.
(Albeit a very good aging backline.)
Was much more highly rated than Fuller too. The jump from VFL/SANFL to AFL is vast.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I completely understand where you're coming from. But tell me this, are you more confident of Fuller playing and performing next year, or Howard playing and performing next year?

Definitely Fuller. But the fact is that 90% of supporters would say that regardless - I think everyone hopes and believes that a player the club has decided to draft will be better than a guy who has stagnated at a low level. Fuller just hasn't shown anything at the top echelon and I don't think it's fair on Howard to say that a 23 year old - overlooked in five drafts and who is yet to play any AFL football - is better without seeing him play.

 

[timtamWB]

Yep, Sydney took Dean Towers with their first pick last year & he wasn't able to crack a game in an aging backline.
(Albeit a very good aging backline.)
Was much more highly rated than Fuller too. The jump from VFL/SANFL to AFL is vast.

Towers is a midfielder, and Sydney's midfield is extremely hard to break into. Compare that to Fuller who would play on the HBF, and we don't exactly have a lot of those guys with good foot skills.

 

[Kelvin31]

Yep, Sydney took Dean Towers with their first pick last year & he wasn't able to crack a game in an aging backline.
(Albeit a very good aging backline.)
Was much more highly rated than Fuller too. The jump from VFL/SANFL to AFL is vast.

Yeah but it Depends on the player (and their age/experience) when the heat is on. Campbell, Dickson, Brett Goodes slotted into the AFL like he'd been there for a decade, no reason a Fuller can't. Apart from his footy brain, by all reports Fulls is a ripping bloke, tough and hungry to play AFL (Similar to Goodsey) and they loved him in the interview too. Nothing more hungry than a 23 y/o salesman playing SANFL. Hunger can do strange things to a footballer.

 

[black pup]

Great draft.

 

[TBOW]

Yeah but it Depends on the player (and their age/experience) when the heat is on. Campbell, Dickson, Brett Goodes slotted into the AFL like he'd been there for a decade, no reason a Fuller can't. Apart from his footy brain, by all reports Fulls is a ripping bloke, tough and hungry to play AFL (Similar to Goodsey) and they loved him in the interview too. Nothing more hungry than a 23 y/o salesman playing SANFL. Hunger can do strange things to a footballer.

Fingers crossed. I'm sure Sydney were hoping the same from Towers.
Maybe our club is just better at identifying/developing them.

 

[Some Idiot]

You never really know with players from the level below, Michael Barlow was a very good vfl player, his skills just didn't seem good enough to translate to afl level. His game just went to another level at afl level though, and while his skills don't look all that pretty, they really get the job done.

 

[VitalDread]

Does anyone know the average age of our list now? Was curious/

think its now around 23years old since we only have 7-8 players over 25

 

[Mofra]

You never really know with players from the level below, Michael Barlow was a very good vfl player, his skills just didn't seem good enough to translate to afl level. His game just went to another level at afl level though, and while his skills don't look all that pretty, they really get the job done.

Luke Dahlhaus went undrafted largely because of his low kicking efficiency.
By foot he is more than capable as an AFL player (now).

 

[VitalDread]

Luke Dahlhaus went undrafted largely because of his low kicking efficiency.
By foot he is more than capable as an AFL player (now).

all depends on the system the players gets drafted too or traded too.
some coaches can bring out the best in players that people over looked.
aka Luke, Barlow (to a certain extent)

 

[King Harold]

I completely understand where you're coming from. But tell me this, are you more confident of Fuller playing and performing next year, or Howard playing and performing next year?

If I had to bet , it would be Fuller. And other than the highlight reel ,I have never see him play.
Howard is just not AFL standard. His kicking is way over rated , and has no feel for the game.
Fuller on the other hand looks a very good kick.
Not saying Fuller can make it either, running around as a loose man in defence can make you look a lot better than you are.

 

[Butane]

Kicking is a funny one though. It's not just in the execution it's also in the vision. Not to mention the height, speed and accuracy and ability to see where the ball will land and who will be in that space in 5 seconds time. (R.I.P Gilbee)

I can't make a call on Fuller's kicking just by looking at his highlights. They seem to have focused on his hail mary kicking for goal or clearing to basically nothing from defence. His coaches comments suggest he has more ability than just this and I'm sure our recruiters agree with the coach but I'm can't honestly say he's a better kick than Howard yet.

 

[paulveed]

You don't select anybody for them to play VFL. You select them expecting to play AFL and be good players - except every draft is packed with failures. Just because he's 23 doesn't mean he's immune to this. You can't say that Fuller is an upgrade on Howard because Howard has been shit at AFL level and Fuller has been good at SANFL level; two totally different situations.

I don't disagree that Howard is in trouble - had I been in charge he and Greenwood would both be gone. I just don't think you can say that a player who hasn't played a single game of AFL is better than a fringe player who has shown little; at this stage, Howard has shown a lot more at AFL level because Fuller has shown zero.

Not 100% sure how you differentiate between zeros though Dannnnnn.

I have seen nothing or know nothing of Fuller, so am reluctant to comment personally.

I must have seen Honeychurch play a couple of times at least, but have no recollection of him, so I am guessing he did not grab my attention at the time.

So I am just feeling a little ambivalent on our draft outcome right now. Not at all sure that we managed to fill too many of the holes in our list.
Certainly there will be more competition for small/medium forwards and defenders etc. We still seem short in the areas of outside midfield class, and
tall backs and forwards unless Tommy Williams and Ayce emerge from the wilderness in 2014.

Revisiting Bont's. highlights today, he reminds me of a gangly immature colt in motion. To me that suggests he still has a bit of growth still to go.
Will he finish up as a tall rather than any kind of mid in the end [ IE 2-3 years down the track] ?

 

[King Harold]

Kicking is a funny one though. It's not just in the execution it's also in the vision. Not to mention the height, speed and accuracy and ability to see where the ball will land and who will be in that space in 5 seconds time. (R.I.P Gilbee)

I can't make a call on Fuller's kicking just by looking at his highlights. They seem to have focused on his hail mary kicking for goal or clearing to basically nothing from defence. His coaches comments suggest he has more ability than just this and I'm sure our recruiters agree with the coach but I'm can't honestly say he's a better kick than Howard yet.

Howard kicks way to many Helicopters ,
And Gilbee is the best kick I have seen of any era , if Fuller is half as good I would be happy.

 

[Interloper]

Kicking is a funny one though. It's not just in the execution it's also in the vision. Not to mention the height, speed and accuracy and ability to see where the ball will land and who will be in that space in 5 seconds time. (R.I.P Gilbee)

I can't make a call on Fuller's kicking just by looking at his highlights. They seem to have focused on his hail mary kicking for goal or clearing to basically nothing from defence. His coaches comments suggest he has more ability than just this and I'm sure our recruiters agree with the coach but I'm can't honestly say he's a better kick than Howard yet.

Although it's reported he kicks on his left and right. Fuller 1, Howard nil.

 

[Mutt]

Fair enough mate. I now agree with your entire post. I'd also feel much better with another mature key back on our list. Unless... Ayce? Nah bad idea.

Jones.

 

[immortalmike]

Jones.

Would hate to take another kid who has shown promise as a foward and turn him into a back. Maybe if we were hit by injuries but even then it'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The club must have a huge amount of faith in Roberts.

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

Quick team of the future 23 (and under) as of April 2014. Go puppies!
B. Fuller Roughhead Young
HB. JJ Talia Darley
C. Stevens Wallis Macrae
HF. Hrovat Jones Smith
F. Hunter Cordy Stringer
R. Campbell Bontempelli Libba
Int. Tutt, Roberts, Pearce, Prudden, Honeychurch, Jong, Redpath, Greenwood

 

[Mutt]

Would hate to take another kid who has shown promise as a foward and turn him into a back. Maybe if we were hit by injuries but even then it'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The club must have a huge amount of faith in Roberts.

If our needs down back are far greater than our needs up forward then I see no problem playing Jones at CHB - it probably wouldn't hurt his development as a forward anyway.

Jones needs to worry about getting a gig in our best 22 before he worries too much about the role he is asked to play. I'm pretty sure Liam would also see it that way.

If it's good enough for the great Chris Grant to play wherever the team needs him, it's also good enough for Liam.

I understand that Redpath will be given some significant development time up forward in the VFL and at AFL level if form warrants. We can't fit all of our talls into the one forward line - someone is going to have to develop some skills playing down back - in fact under the total footy mantra, they all will be swing men to some extent.

 

[immortalmike]

If our needs down back are far greater than our needs up forward then I see no problem playing Jones at CHB - it probably wouldn't hurt his development as a forward anyway.

Jones needs to worry about getting a gig in our best 22 before he worries too much about the role he is asked to play. I'm pretty sure Liam would also see it that way.

If it's good enough for the great Chris Grant to play wherever the team needs him, it's also good enough for Liam.

I understand that Redpath will be given some significant development time up forward in the VFL and at AFL level if form warrants. We can't fit all of our talls into the one forward line - someone is going to have to develop some skills playing down back - in fact under the total footy mantra, they all will be swing men to some extent.

Whilst I get your point. Liam is the one player Macca has not shown even a slight inclination of moving back. I think he understands that Jones needs time in 'his' position and that moving him around will be nothing short of detrimental.Yeah if it is what the team needs, then fine, but I feel what our team needs most is a quality CHF and that is something I think Jones can be.

On the overall point, yes total football is something I cottoned onto a while ago and it's a philosophy that I like, while remaining skeptical of whether it can be implemented. But aren't you as a Bulldog supporter sick of turning young forwards into backs (I am), as a club we panic too much and don't let players develop. McCartney doesn't seem like the panic type so hopefully this changes. I'm a big advocate of patience when it comes to Jones.

As for Redpath, I honestly have no faith he knows what a football looks like, let alone be able to play in some of the toughest positions at AFL level.