Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - Part 1 [closed, see Part II]

[Bobby_]

Have to win a final this year. With a healthy list and a few stars added to the mix, winning that first final is going to be Paramount, especially if we finish top four.

 

[PhatBoy]

I dont think they are even close.
Not only has Clarkson been able to maintain a level of success that is unprecedented in the modern era of football, he's also been able to produce 5 current AFL coaches who served under him, and spread that winning culture to improve clubs like the Western Bulldogs, GWS, Richmond (up until this year) and West coast.
Theres also a culture of hunger and intensity at Hawthorn that runs all the way from The Captain, right down to the kid who's #45 in the player group. That is evidenced by the amount of success that Box Hill Hawks is also having of late.
That is processes and that is culture, and Geelong are no where near that (yet)

It's only unprecedented because of one extra flag. Clarkson's percentage over the last 9 years is lower than ours, they have the same amount of finals appearances as we do, one extra GF and flag, same amount of prelims. If (a massive IF obviously) we make the GF and win this year there won't be many conclusive arguments you can make to say it has been unprecedented.

 

[Mr Blicavs]

It's only unprecedented because of one extra flag. Clarkson's percentage over the last 9 years is lower than ours, they have the same amount of finals appearances as we do, one extra GF and flag, same amount of prelims. If (a massive IF obviously) we make the GF and win this year there won't be many conclusive arguments you can make to say it has been unprecedented.

I'd be happy to dine off the fruits of one flag in recent years, let alone 3, but surely you're not putting our recent success on the same level as a 3 peating Hawthorns?
History will remember these two sides fondly, but on two totally different levels.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Have to win a final this year. With a healthy list and a few stars added to the mix, winning that first final is going to be Paramount, especially if we finish top four.

Absolutely.
This is the bottom line for me; if we can't win a final in 2016 (especially given the position the club has managed to achieve to this stage of the year), then any 'improvement' we have allegedly made is insubstantial.

 

[lionbear]

I dont think they are even close.
Not only has Clarkson been able to maintain a level of success that is unprecedented in the modern era of football, he's also been able to produce 5 current AFL coaches who served under him, and spread that winning culture to improve clubs like the Western Bulldogs, GWS, Richmond (up until this year) and West coast.
Theres also a culture of hunger and intensity at Hawthorn that runs all the way from The Captain, right down to the kid who's #45 in the player group. That is evidenced by the amount of success that Box Hill Hawks are also having of late.
That is processes and that is culture, and Geelong are no where near that (yet)

You are most probably right in that regard, I think the assistant coaches the Hawks have provided does have them ranked a little higher, but I don't feel Hawthorn's hunger is any better or worse than Geelong.

They have produced 4 flags, but Geelong is only 1 behind in 3, I want to wait to see how Geelong go in the next 3 years with success before fully judging, also how Hawthorn handle the list changeover compared to how the Cats have gone to date.

 

[Mr Blicavs]

Have to win a final this year. With a healthy list and a few stars added to the mix, winning that first final is going to be Paramount, especially if we finish top four.

Agreed Bobby......if you asked most people before the season started if Geelong would play finals this year, and win one, given their recruiting, and the softness of our draw, they would have all said 'anything less than that would be a failure'
If we don't win a final with all these things in our favour, as a well as a fit and deep playing list, then this season is indeed a failure.
7-1, 8-1, 9-1 won't count for anything and that's why I won't get carried away by ladder positions.

 

[Mr Blicavs]

You are most probably right in that regard, I think the assistant coaches the Hawks have provided does have them ranked a little higher, but I don't feel Hawthorn's hunger is any better or worse than Geelong.

They have produced 4 flags, but Geelong is only 1 behind in 3, I want to wait to see how Geelong go in the next 3 years with success before fully judging, also how Hawthorn handle the list changeover compared to how the Cats have gone to date.

Me too......I'm as excited as I've ever been about the possibilities of potential success, but I'm reluctant to get carried away like some

 

[lionbear]

Me too......I'm as excited as I've ever been about the possibilities of potential success, but I'm reluctant to get carried away like some

Yeah fully agreeed, lets not forget Freo were 8-0 this time last year.

 

[PhatBoy]

I'd be happy to dine off the fruits of one flag in recent years, let alone 3, but surely you're not putting our recent success on the same level as a 3 peating Hawthorns?
History will remember these two sides fondly, but on two totally different levels.

When people assess rugby league in the 1980s, they think of two things: Parramatta and the Bulldogs. Why? Because they won 4 comps each. Parramatta won 3 in a row at one stage, something the Bulldogs never did. They won 80, 85, 85, 87. Parra won in 81, 82, 83, 86. No team was better, they were just two outstanding sides who dominated an era. I don't see why us and the Hawks winning 4 flags each in 10 seasons would be viewed much differently.

What's a bigger achievement, winning 3 out of 3 or winning 3 out of 5? Probably winning 3 in 3. What is a TOUGHER achievement? Winning 3 in 5 has a lot of arguments you could make for it. 5 years is a long time for one group of players to be 'up.' If a golfer shoots 9 under par having picked up a shot every second hole, is it different to an opponent going 9 under through the first 9 holes and then not picking up another shot?

 

[Bobby_]

Agreed Bobby......if you asked most people before the season started if Geelong would play finals this year, and win one, given their recruiting, and the softness of our draw, they would have all said 'anything less than that would be a failure'
If we don't win a final with all these things in our favour, as a well as a fit and deep playing list, then this season is indeed a failure.
7-1, 8-1, 9-1 won't count for anything and that's why I won't get carried away by ladder positions.

I actually had us scraping into the top eight myself so my pass mark was to actually make the eight!
Then again, I did not expect so many injured players to be holding up as well as they currently are. Thought Smith would be breaking down and be in and out of the team. Menzel, McCarthy, Bartel (head knocks and body to start breaking down on him which have not occurred).
I had grave doubts about our back-line, particularly Mackie and Enright as I felt we were simply too slow and both would be declining.

So yeh, I'm pretty impressed with what the team has done so far. Having said all that, it quickly turns around. The games against North Melbourne, GWS, Western Bulldogs and Sydney over a 5 week span is going to probably make or break our top 4 chances.
Win half of them or more, we're a great chance.
Surely on current form, we wouldn't lose all those games which is obviously worst case scenario.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Have to win a final this year. With a healthy list and a few stars added to the mix, winning that first final is going to be Paramount, especially if we finish top four.

I had us in the bottom half of the 8 but with the new guys gelling quicker than I thought , the rehab dwellers actually playing some footy and the young guys improving we're ahead of that.
IF we finish top 4 and win the first final history would suggest we'd be a monty to make the GF , long way to go but so far we are ahead of the curve with a huge % up our sleeve.

 

[iameviljez]

I had us in the bottom half of the 8 but with the new guys gelling quicker than I thought , the rehab dwellers actually playing some footy and the young guys improving we're ahead of that.
IF we finish top 4 and win the first final history would suggest we'd be a monty to make the GF , long way to go but so far we are ahead of the curve with a huge % up our sleeve.

How many sides have lost the prelim having won the qualifier? Memory seems to suggest Freo last year, Adelaide in 2006 and StKilda in 2005. (Getting ahead of myself a little here).

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

How many sides have lost the prelim having won the qualifier? Memory seems to suggest Freo last year, Adelaide in 2006 and StKilda in 2005. (Getting ahead of myself a little here).

That was my recollection - losses are on the rare side once you win the qualifying final - most times the winners of the qualifiers end up playing each other in the big dance IIRC

 

[DanA]

If you said at the start of the season that we have:

An ACL (Season)
9 weeks (calf)
10 weeks (ankle)
1 week (thigh)
1 week (flu)
5 weeks (MCL)

At round 8 I wouldn't have said we are lucky with injuries. But Menzel, McCarthy and rucks fit near enough all season so far has been a blessing.

Personally this is exactly the position I'd thought we'd be. I predicted top of the ladder in the ladder prediction thread.

 

[iameviljez]

If you said at the start of the season that we have:

An ACL (Season)
9 weeks (calf)
10 weeks (ankle)
1 week (thigh)
1 week (flu)
5 weeks (MCL)

At round 8 I wouldn't have said we are lucky with injuries. But Menzel, McCarthy and rucks fit near enough all season so far has been a blessing.

Personally this is exactly the position I'd thought we'd be. I predicted top of the ladder in the ladder prediction thread.

We've been extremely lucky IMO, in that the injuries that we've had, have been spread out across positions we can cover, and some have occurred to players who have been absent from the team for a while regardless.

Injuries to Clark, Thurlow, McCarthy, Kolo and Cockatoo are very different to having both ruckmen out, both experienced key forwards, or any of Guthrie, Selwood or Dangerfield.

 

[DanA]

We've been extremely lucky IMO, in that the injuries that we've had, have been spread out across positions we can cover, and some have occurred to players who have been absent from the team for a while regardless.

Injuries to Clark, Thurlow, McCarthy, Kolo and Cockatoo are very different to having both ruckmen out, both experienced key forwards, or any of Guthrie, Selwood or Dangerfield.

I guess but really if it's not Hawkins, Danger, Selwood, Taylor or a ruckmen I don't think it's a problem. And I'm not even sure about how vital the ruckmen are as I think either Vardy or Clark could do the job.

 

[iameviljez]

I guess but really if it's not Hawkins, Danger, Selwood, Taylor or a ruckmen I don't think it's a problem. And I'm not even sure about how vital the ruckmen are as I think either Vardy or Clark could do the job.

I have to say that I really disagree with that last bit. Vardy got absolutely schooled in the ruck by a rookie from StKilda last year, and is primarily a forward. I'd like to see how Clark's body holds up at CHF before throwing him into the ruck as well.

 

[DanA]

I have to say that I really disagree with that last bit. Vardy got absolutely schooled in the ruck by a rookie from StKilda last year, and is primarily a forward. I'd like to see how Clark's body holds up at CHF before throwing him into the ruck as well.

I'm talking about if one ruckmen went down. They'd be 2nd ruck/forwards, I'd not like either as no.1 ruck but to me that requires two injuries.

 

[Vdubs]

I guess but really if it's not Hawkins, Danger, Selwood, Taylor or a ruckmen I don't think it's a problem. And I'm not even sure about how vital the ruckmen are as I think either Vardy or Clark could do the job.

100% disagree

Vardy is a # 2 ruck at best with a track record of breaking down if asked to do so.

Clark is so far off the pace as a ruck it is a non issue

Smith and Stanley have been huge this year for us- we likely have the most potent 1/2 ruck set up, helping our clearance work, giving our mids first use.
And handy up forward.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

100% disagree

Vardy is a # 2 ruck at best with a track record of breaking down if asked to do so.

Clark is so far off the pace as a ruck it is a non issue

Smith and Stanley have been huge this year for us- we likely have the most potent 1/2 ruck set up, helping our clearance work, giving our mids first use.
And handy up forward.

Couldn't agree more. We only need to look no further than a few recent finals appearances without a genuine ruckman.

 

[ChookNorris]

100% disagree

Vardy is a # 2 ruck at best with a track record of breaking down if asked to do so.

Clark is so far off the pace as a ruck it is a non issue

Smith and Stanley have been huge this year for us- we likely have the most potent 1/2 ruck set up, helping our clearance work, giving our mids first use.
And handy up forward.

I'd say stanley is quickly becoming the league best no2 ruckman. Smith I wouldnt have in the top 10.

 

[iameviljez]

I'd say stanley is quickly becoming the league best no2 ruckman. Smith I wouldnt have in the top 10.

Gawn, Goldstein, Naitanui, Mumford, Tippett, Martin, Kreuzer, McEvoy, Hickey... yeah ok you have a point. Still, at least we're actually competitive in the ruck for once.

 

[Lana]

I'd say stanley is quickly becoming the league best no2 ruckman. Smith I wouldnt have in the top 10.

If anything Stanley has been our number one ruck this year.

Round 8 is the only round that they both played where Smith attended more centre bounces then Stanley.
Centre bounces attended ave (excluding round 6 that Stanley missed)
Smith 11.7
Stanley 16.6

 

[ChookNorris]

If anything Stanley has been our number one ruck this year.

Round 8 is the only round that they both played where Smith attended more centre bounces then Stanley.
Centre bounces attended ave (excluding round 6 that Stanley missed)
Smith 11.7
Stanley 16.6

Probobly why i though he was doing such a great job as a 'backup'

 

[Sttew]

If anything Stanley has been our number one ruck this year.

Round 8 is the only round that they both played where Smith attended more centre bounces then Stanley.
Centre bounces attended ave (excluding round 6 that Stanley missed)
Smith 11.7
Stanley 16.6

Stanley sort of disappeared after 2Q last Friday. I was wondering if he was injured, as he limped off the field at one stage (came back though)