The BigFooty Liverpool Army

[BlueBen]

Negativity from fans, in my opinion, undid Rodgers more than anything else...

No, what undid Rodgers more than anything else was that he was in completely over his head.

 

[Andonis1997]

I still dearly hope we get Gotze, but he is a mess at the minute, but I think if anyone can make him bust a gut again it'd probably be Jurgen

If he busts a gut, we'd all bust a nut.

 

[Cooldude]

Yes, we made Rodgers fail, we made him waste money and buy Benteke and lose to Stoke 6-1 etc, all our fault

Mane is at the very least, better than Lallana, that I can accept. Quicker and more goals and work just as hard.

They can waste their money on the Manes and Womanes of the world for all I care as long as they buy a left back who is experienced and can defend, gimme Hector or someone and I don't care. Hector apparently doesn't fit the description of the left back we're looking for, well coz he isn't a kid or a spud

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

One of our games at the end of last season felt very Stoke like. Must've been the 3-1 loss to Swansea.

But this is the problem. We could and should be doing so much better than the Milners, Allens and Lallanas of this world.

We're Liverpool Football Club for god sake.

God was English too. And you're only trying to fool yourself if you ignore Ings, Hendo, Studge, Gomez, Clyne in your response. Lallana has definitely improved under Klopp, seemingly upping his fitness compared to under Rodgers, and he's been everywhere in the Euros too. But it's worth noting he like Lovren may have struggled to adapt to a new team with injuries interrupting things. Of course the irony in all this is that buying from within England is meant to limit the amount of time it takes them to adapt, whereas the evidence instead suggests it limits the risk of getting a flop but they're still taking as long to adapt (and perhaps because everyone knows them already, they rarely have the big impact an OS player can have).

 

[Zidane98]

On Soton we've bought :


Lambert - miss but bought for next to nothing
Clyne - big hit and only 12m
Lovren - initial failure but now a sucess
Lallana - remains to be seen, finished last season strongly.

I'm not totally against buying Mane but don't understand why we don't lowball them. He's got 2 years left on his deal - if they don't sell him this sinner he'll be worth 10-12m only next summer with 1 year left on his contract. I don't understand why we just offer them 20m abd say take it or leave it.

 

[Cooldude]

On Soton we've bought :


Lambert - miss but bought for next to nothing
Clyne - big hit and only 12m
Lovren - initial failure but now a sucess
Lallana - remains to be seen, finished last season strongly.

I'm not totally against buying Mane but don't understand why we don't lowball them. He's got 2 years left on his deal - if they don't sell him this sinner he'll be worth 10-12m only next summer with 1 year left on his contract. I don't understand why we just offer them 20m abd say take it or leave it.

Coz negotiations are for losers

 

[jod23]

One of our games at the end of last season felt very Stoke like. Must've been the 3-1 loss to Swansea.

God was English too. And you're only trying to fool yourself if you ignore Ings, Hendo, Studge, Gomez, Clyne in your response. Lallana has definitely improved under Klopp, seemingly upping his fitness compared to under Rodgers, and he's been everywhere in the Euros too.

Gomez is just a kid. Looks super promising but has done nothing yet. Ings is backup at best. Henderson is decent but not world class. Ill give you Clyne and Sturridge.

Henderson, Lallana, Milner, Allen, Lucas. It's so vanilla. Who out of that lot would you think could grab a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. There is not a goal amongst them either.

We need to do better.

 

[Milenko]

Gomez is just a kid. Looks super promising but has done nothing yet. Ings is backup at best. Henderson is decent but not world class. Ill give you Clyne and Sturridge.

Henderson, Lallana, Milner, Allen, Lucas. It's so vanilla. Who out of that lot would you think could grab a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. There is not a goal amongst them either.

We need to do better.

If we inject class into central midfield my gut says everywhere else on the pitch does a lot better.

 

[jod23]

If we inject class into central midfield my gut says everywhere else on the pitch does a lot better.

I agree with this. We've gone from having Mascherano, Gerrard and Alonso in midfield to Henderson, Milner and Allen.

Yikes.

We desperately need some class in there. Can is very good and could be great. He needs better guys to operate with than the guys we have now. Im happy to keep Henderson and Allen. But they shouldnt be first choice. They would be decent squad options.

Can needs to play next to guys like Kovacic or a Xhaka or a bloke like Alli.

 

[BlueBen]

I agree with this. We've gone from having Mascherano, Gerrard and Alonso in midfield to Henderson, Milner and Allen.

Yikes.

We desperately need some class in there. Can is very good and could be great. He needs better guys to operate with than the guys we have now. Im happy to keep Henderson and Allen. But they shouldnt be first choice. They would be decent squad options.

Can needs to play next to guys like Kovacic or a Xhaka or a bloke like Alli.

I'm not sure we can play both Henderson and Can in the same team because they don't possess enough quality on the ball.

The problem is that Henderson is captain, so is going to play just about all the time (when fit), when he really should only be a squad player.

 

[peternorth]

I'm not sure we can play both Henderson and Can in the same team because they don't possess enough quality on the ball.

The problem is that Henderson is captain, so is going to play just about all the time (when fit), when he really should only be a squad player.

its a tough situation with hendo as captain, although we know it doesnt always mean he's a starter.

 

[Dylan8]

Henderson is second to Coutinho with his quality on the ball imo. However we need options outside of Can and Henderson that can provide more quality going forward outside of Allen, Lucas et al. More importantly some point of difference like being great at set pieces, long range shooting or genuine pace.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Gomez is just a kid. Looks super promising but has done nothing yet. Ings is backup at best. Henderson is decent but not world class. Ill give you Clyne and Sturridge.

Henderson, Lallana, Milner, Allen, Lucas. It's so vanilla. Who out of that lot would you think could grab a game by the scruff of the neck and win it. There is not a goal amongst them either.

We need to do better.

Goals are a problem as I've long said. You can see that with England too as Hendo and Lallana and Clyne in their last match were putting balls in but goals weren't coming. Lallana seems to lack a bit of guile in his finishing and Hendo is scoring less because he's further back the pitch. Clyne's crossing is also not really the inviting type (unlike Smith, where crossing is basically the sole reason he gets first team action).

But I think the description of the team being 'vanilla' is just a bit of, I dunno, like self-racism or something. Because they look like the 'plodders' we so often see in our games or the A-League or whatever they seem boring, whereas someone with a more exotic background seems to have more magic to them. Lallana's footwork when receiving the ball is pretty darn fancy. Of course we'd all like him to take the next step to turn that into beating players, but it so far hasn't looked like happening. Isn't Firmino similar in that regard? Better with goals, but worse with passing? People like Allen now he has long hair and a beard because it's a bit different. They still think Milner is vanilla despite 15 assists or something... It just feels like we always want a 'young gun' or a continental 'gem' as Houllier might have called it. The unfamiliar is more appealing because we don't know them and we think they could therefore be awesome. But so many of those buys fail. We only remember the ones which were awesome. Masch was in the EPL already. Gerrard home-grown.

But, yep, getting some goalscorers would be flippin' awesome so all the pressure isn't on our #9 and #10.

 

[Zidane98]

Winning teams in the past have always had plenty of "vanilla" players. Gary Nevillle was the very definition of a "vanilla" player but was consistent and worked his guts out. Ended up being a key member of countless titles.

You put Henderson next to a creative player and you've got the ideal midfield pair IMO.

Some people seem to think you need a team full of superstars to win the league. Leicester showed that isn't the case, hard work and good management with a touch of brilliance & flair on top won it for them. And their vanilla players played a big part.

 

[jod23]

Goals are a problem as I've long said. You can see that with England too as Hendo and Lallana and Clyne in their last match were putting balls in but goals weren't coming. Lallana seems to lack a bit of guile in his finishing and Hendo is scoring less because he's further back the pitch. Clyne's crossing is also not really the inviting type (unlike Smith, where crossing is basically the sole reason he gets first team action).

But I think the description of the team being 'vanilla' is just a bit of, I dunno, like self-racism or something. Because they look like the 'plodders' we so often see in our games or the A-League or whatever they seem boring, whereas someone with a more exotic background seems to have more magic to them. Lallana's footwork when receiving the ball is pretty darn fancy. Of course we'd all like him to take the next step to turn that into beating players, but it so far hasn't looked like happening. Isn't Firmino similar in that regard? Better with goals, but worse with passing? People like Allen now he has long hair and a beard because it's a bit different. They still think Milner is vanilla despite 15 assists or something... It just feels like we always want a 'young gun' or a continental 'gem' as Houllier might have called it. The unfamiliar is more appealing because we don't know them and we think they could therefore be awesome. But so many of those buys fail. We only remember the ones which were awesome. Masch was in the EPL already. Gerrard home-grown.

But, yep, getting some goalscorers would be flippin' awesome so all the pressure isn't on our #9 and #10.

So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.

 

[jod23]

It's a bad sign when the fans start to accept vanilla and mediocrity.

 

[Zidane98]

So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.

Hendo out of that lot is the only one good enough to be a starting xi player. The others should be squad options only if we recruit well.

 

[Zidane98]

It's a bad sign when the fans start to accept vanilla and mediocrity.

SAF had plenty of vanilla players under him during his reign. Plenty were key parts of titles too. Should he have tried to sign superstars in every position?

 

[Dylan8]

Serious underrating of Henderson here. It was criminal that we were robbed of properly seeing him under Klopp last season.

 

[jod23]

SAF had plenty of vanilla players under him during his reign. Plenty were key parts of titles too. Should he have tried to sign superstars in every position?

Im not saying we shouldnt have a couple of vanilla players. It's just we have way too many vanilla players.

We should only have one of Lucas, Allen, Henderson and Milner. Not all four.

 

[Cooldude]

SAF had plenty of vanilla players under him during his reign. Plenty were key parts of titles too. Should he have tried to sign superstars in every position?

He constantly splashed big money on big players, he knew that you need players like that to win trophies

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

So what are you saying? Hendo, Allen, Milner, Lallana are good enough and should stay and play. We finished 8th...

We need more quality in midfield. Much more.

No. It's very clear what I was saying. That people railing against buying from the EPL or 'vanilla' players weren't really being fair. I have no problem keeping all the players you have mentioned. Allen has been great as a squad player, but he unsurprisingly wants first team football so we probably can't afford to keep him just for that. Lallana I think may be the same sort of player, but Klopp clearly likes his hard-work and he has stepped up. If Klopp wants to keep backing him, he can add more goals to his game. He has scored a few. Milner and Hendo have both lost goal-mouth influence by playing further back but both have real quality. I would keep them ahead of the others you have mentioned. I also think you are forgetting how good Ings was looking under Rodgers before his injury.

And BlueBen's idea that people are 'accepting mediocrity' is frankly silly. If we all protest and get FSG kicked out for not getting us the players we want then I think there's a greater chance of us falling further from the top spot than getting closer. Your 'accepting mediocrity' is our 'accepting the existence of big money clubs'. We can compete with all clubs, but there is a lot of big money washing around and statistically and practically that means we will miss out on the top level players until we can make the case on the pitch and make people believe in the 'project'.

 

[Dylan8]

Yeah, we were a bees dick away from winning the league with Glen Johnson, Mignolet, Jon Flanagan, etc in the first XI. There's a lot more to success than just personnel. I think a proper preseason under Klopp, a good run with injuries and our lack of fixture congestion will go a long way. Squad needs a clean out and fresh blood but the starting XI isn't as far away as you'd think.

Im not saying we shouldnt have a couple of vanilla players. It's just we have way too many vanilla players.

We should only have one of Lucas, Allen, Henderson and Milner. Not all four.

Milner basically won us the game against arguably the best team in the Europa League and put up 15 assists for the year. Change your tune if his name was Milnerinho and he has an undercut?

 

[Dylan8]

BTW can we assess where our transfer situation is at /after/ we make the transfers. Mane isn't signed. Chilwell isn't signed. The media pumps out these stories every day to sell papers. Rumblings might be true but as of yet nothing has been indicated by the club.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

BTW can we assess where our transfer situation is at /after/ we make the transfers. Mane isn't signed. Chilwell isn't signed. The media pumps out these stories every day to sell papers. Rumblings might be true but as of yet nothing has been indicated by the club.

Yep. That Scottish defender thing Cooldude mentioned sounded like they were trying to get LCFC to drop their price on Chilwell. But Klopp clearly knows what he wants and has said so publically when it comes to only wanting players who want to build the club, not be dropped straight into the UCL. We have to let the process plays out and if it all goes crap then the 'transition' to a post-Ayre period will happen even sooner.

We all want a return to the days of success. But we seem to have believed our own press in a way when looking at the trophies. The European nights under Benitez were great, but there was plenty of worry about how the team was back then (remember Kewell started the 05 final and all the gnashing of teeth over him from the fanbase). The point was that Liverpool was defined by backing their team no matter what. I worry that we are losing that. We managed to overcome Hicks and Gillette and have real owners. We've had one pretty good manager in Rodgers and now an on-paper better one who has done great things with unfashionable players.

Back that we have a plan. Back that they will fix problems. Back that there are smart people involved at the club.

We won 05 because we believed we could. We beat Dortmund this year because we believed we could. We dominate against the big teams when the fans are up for it. I see no reason to change this approach to become a nervy fanbase who are about to be world-beaters if we win, or in need of complete squad overhaul if we lose.