Unpopular Basketball Opinions

[Andrew3737]

I mean im mostly talking about 90s. Top seed/candidate is always LeBron so im talking about the compeition. Jordan in his champ years had the knicks and an old boston team in the first 3peat in the east. In the 2nd 3peat he had a decent pacers, a potential orlando dynasty but Shaq left the following year and the Miami Heat. None were as good as the 62 win bulls or 60 win Hawks or 08 Celts.

Ill concede in the 80s, the top of the east were dominant and nowhere near today, but thats not where Jordan won his rings. 90s east is just as bad as today.

 

[stewie griffen]

I mean im mostly talking about 90s. Top seed/candidate is always LeBron so im talking about the compeition. Jordan in his champ years had the knicks and an old boston team in the first 3peat in the east. In the 2nd 3peat he had a decent pacers, a potential orlando dynasty but Shaq left the following year and the Miami Heat. None were as good as the 62 win bulls or 60 win Hawks or 08 Celts.

Ill concede in the 80s, the top of the east were dominant and nowhere near today, but thats not where Jordan won his rings. 90s east is just as bad as today.

Indiana were no mugs. Those Reggie teams were legit. The Ehlo era Cavs and Wilkins hawks teams were decent as well. There was the young Charlotte team before Larry and zo left and before that the tailend of the piston and Boston eras

The 95-96 season had 8 playoff teams above. 500, same with 96-97. 97-98 had 10 teams at. 500 or better out east

 

[Andrew3737]

Thats not uncommon though. Last 12 years 8 seasons have had 8 500 teams. Last year there were 9.

Not saying they arent mugs. Just saying east have had some great contenders in the last 10 years too.

 

[Andrew3737]

Also expansion teams and a lot of terrible teams had sub 25 wins. Think in Jazz's division there wrre 5 teams with sub 25 wins (which makes their 64 wins not that great)

 

[stewie griffen]

Thats not uncommon though. Last 12 years 8 seasons have had 8 500 teams. Last year there were 9.

Not saying they arent mugs. Just saying east have had some great contenders in the last 10 years too.

I'll pay last 6 or 7 years

Before that? The east was pretty barren from 99 to 2010.

Apart from the top 2 in a few of those years, and even then those Orlando and Philly teams, and the LeBron Cleveland team had no business making the finals.

The nets were ok, with that Kidd era , and I was always rooting for them but they weren't that great. The Detroit and Boston teams are the standouts from that era, and the heat of 06 went ok.

Even the super friends heat destroyed the bulls the first season and really had Indiana as their main rival

The east won 3 of 13 finals in that range of years including streaks of 5 and 3 in a row.

This year is probably one of the better seasons with 4 teams that wouldn't surprise, well ok it still would but you could see it maybe in the realms of possibility

 

[Andrew3737]

East is def weaker dont get me wrong. But my overall point is outside of LeBron/Jordan teams since the 90s theres only a handful of great east teams in both eras.

 

[PP34]

Curry was the NBA steals leader last season so has a reasonable defensive side to his game.

Is Ben Wallace a lock for the HOF? 4 time defensive player of the year, just like Mutombo.

I think this debate is going around in circles because of the word 'lock'. I'm not sure Draymond Green can claim to being a guaranteed HOFer at this point, which is what being a lock means. Will he make it? Probably. But who knows. Using Jordan as a comparison (which isn't really fair on anyone) by the same age he was a scoring leader, MVP, all star, defensive POTY, all NBA first team, all NBA defensive first team etc. all before Chicago's 3-peats. You could've easily called him a HOF lock at that point, and from then on he elevated from HOF to GOAT status - depending who you talk to obviously. I'm a huge Draymond Green fan but his HOF status is dependent on what he does from here on in, which to me says calling him a lock is ridiculous.

Curry is okay defensively, but gets away with a lot of gambling because of the likes of Bogut and now Green and Durant to rotate over if he doesn't get the ball.

Ben Wallace absolutely should make the HOF. Tremendous defensive player and was a part of a Detroit team that made consecutive finals appearances and knocked off the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Nobody claimed Green is a guaranteed HOFer. If he retired right now he wouldn't make. What myself and a few others have said is that his current career trajectory will have him in the HOF. I'm not really sure how anyone can argue otherwise. If you're amongst the best in the league, and clearly one of the best defensive players in the league your career is going to end with some pretty significant achievements.

Jod claims Klay will be a HOFer yet his achievements are no different to Draymond's at this point in time. It's clear he doesn't rate Draymond as a player yet when he realised how good he's been defensively he backtracked and started going on about his achievements.

 

[fidstar]

I mean im mostly talking about 90s. Top seed/candidate is always LeBron so im talking about the compeition. Jordan in his champ years had the knicks and an old boston team in the first 3peat in the east. In the 2nd 3peat he had a decent pacers, a potential orlando dynasty but Shaq left the following year and the Miami Heat. None were as good as the 62 win bulls or 60 win Hawks or 08 Celts.

Ill concede in the 80s, the top of the east were dominant and nowhere near today, but thats not where Jordan won his rings. 90s east is just as bad as today.

If you honestly think that the Hawks (who played well for 50ish games) were as good as the 97 Orlando team I'm not sure what to say again. Orlando had a Top 15 player of all time playing for them, plus a guy who would comfortably sit in the Top 50 if not for injury. The Bulls team of 11 was pretty good, I'll give you that. But that one season their best player was 22. That Bulls team had been past the first round a grand total of 1 time in the last 12 seasons (and Rose wasn't playing for them in that one season). Not really a scary prospect.

08 Celtics were elite.

Just look at some of the teams that have made the Finals in the East since 2000. Irverson dragged a bunch of scrubs there. LeBron did the same in his first stint in Cleveland. Kidd somehow did it twice (though his squad wasn't as scrubby). Howard even did it.

A lot of bad teams have come out of the East. Because it's bad.
There have been numerous seasons that you'd find 4 of the top 5 were in the West. Even this season you could make the same argument. If the Clippers had been healthy this season, I think you could say it with some conviction.

For instance last season if you had swapped Cleveland with any of the Top 4 West teams, those 4 teams would have come out of the east (assuming good health).

 

[PP34]

I'll pay last 6 or 7 years

Before that? The east was pretty barren from 99 to 2010.

Apart from the top 2 in a few of those years, and even then those Orlando and Philly teams, and the LeBron Cleveland team had no business making the finals.

The nets were ok, with that Kidd era , and I was always rooting for them but they weren't that great. The Detroit and Boston teams are the standouts from that era, and the heat of 06 went ok.

Even the super friends heat destroyed the bulls the first season and really had Indiana as their main rival

The east won 3 of 13 finals in that range of years including streaks of 5 and 3 in a row.

This year is probably one of the better seasons with 4 teams that wouldn't surprise, well ok it still would but you could see it maybe in the realms of possibility

The East is pretty much no different to in the 90s. When LeBron's teams were finally serious chances of winning titles he had the Big 3 Celtics and George's Pacers to deal with. Those two teams were defensively strong while struggling a bit on offence. They're no different from a Pacers or Knicks team from the 90s.

I think people are also underrating the likes of Detroit and Orlando from when LeBron was first in Cleveland. He managed to make the finals knocking off a strong Pistons team pretty much single handily and in 2009 was beaten in the ECF by a Dwight led Magic team that had a number of more weapons than Cleveland did.

The Raptors team from last season certainly wasn't terrible either, the Cavs just happened to match up really well with the likes of Lowry and Derozan making Lowry in particular pretty much a non factor.

EDIT: The 2011 Bulls certainly weren't terrible either. Are we all forgetting the Mavs ended up champions and I think the 2011 Celtics and Bulls beat that team in a 7 game series.

 

[Andrew3737]

If you honestly think that the Hawks (who played well for 50ish games) were as good as the 97 Orlando team I'm not sure what to say again. Orlando had a Top 15 player of all time playing for them, plus a guy who would comfortably sit in the Top 50 if not for injury. The Bulls team of 11 was pretty good, I'll give you that. But that one season their best player was 22. That Bulls team had been past the first round a grand total of 1 time in the last 12 seasons (and Rose wasn't playing for them in that one season). Not really a scary prospect.

08 Celtics were elite.

Just look at some of the teams that have made the Finals in the East since 2000. Irverson dragged a bunch of scrubs there. LeBron did the same in his first stint in Cleveland. Kidd somehow did it twice (though his squad wasn't as scrubby). Howard even did it.

A lot of bad teams have come out of the East. Because it's bad.
There have been numerous seasons that you'd find 4 of the top 5 were in the West. Even this season you could make the same argument. If the Clippers had been healthy this season, I think you could say it with some conviction.

For instance last season if you had swapped Cleveland with any of the Top 4 West teams, those 4 teams would have come out of the east (assuming good health).

Again, Im not saying the east is stronger or whatever. However the east is weak now as it was then. Its basically the same. Jordans Bulls vs some great/elite short term teams. LeBrons Cavs/Heat vs some great/elite short term teams. Its been the worst conf since the 80s

 

[Scotland]

The 1990s Pacers would smoke the 2010s version.

 

[Scotland]

If not for the Cavs, GSW would be red hot favourites for a 3-peat right now. When I think 'weak Eastern conference' that's what stands out to me. Celtics, Wizards, Raptors - they're all making up the numbers. There are teams in both conferences with positive win/loss records but that is a function of the competition, not every team can finish 20-62. If the Warriors suddenly lost KD, Curry and Thompson for the playoffs then the Spurs would give the Cavs a run in the finals, as would have OKC last year. If the Cavs lost LeBron, Irving and Love then people would start to lose interest once the Western Conference finals were over.

 

[PP34]

The 1990s Pacers would smoke the 2010s version.

They're better sure, but the 2010s Pacers with Hibbert were a very tough defensive team. My point was both were teams that made it tough for a championship team.

If not for the Cavs, GSW would be red hot favourites for a 3-peat right now. When I think 'weak Eastern conference' that's what stands out to me. Celtics, Wizards, Raptors - they're all making up the numbers. There are teams in both conferences with positive win/loss records but that is a function of the competition, not every team can finish 20-62. If the Warriors suddenly lost KD, Curry and Thompson for the playoffs then the Spurs would give the Cavs a run in the finals, as would have OKC last year. If the Cavs lost LeBron, Irving and Love then people would start to lose interest once the Western Conference finals were over.

That speaks more about how good Golden State has been the past three seasons.

The point is the West has had more talent for years and people using the East as a big part of their argument to s**t on LeBron is pretty ridiculous. Yes, teams like the 2015 Bulls, 2013 Pacers, 2012 Celtics and the 2011 Bulls might have struggled to win if they made the finals, but they certainly weren't just cakewalks for LeBron. He played in a number of 6-7 game series and at various stages looked like his team may lose the series.

He's never had a run through the playoffs where he just goes 4-0, 4-0, 4-0 like people make out he has. He then has faced teams like the Spurs and Warriors in the finals who are ridiculously tough to beat, even if they went through a harder Western Conference.

 

[nahnah]

If not for the Cavs, GSW would be red hot favourites for a 3-peat right now. When I think 'weak Eastern conference' that's what stands out to me. Celtics, Wizards, Raptors - they're all making up the numbers. There are teams in both conferences with positive win/loss records but that is a function of the competition, not every team can finish 20-62. If the Warriors suddenly lost KD, Curry and Thompson for the playoffs then the Spurs would give the Cavs a run in the finals, as would have OKC last year. If the Cavs lost LeBron, Irving and Love then people would start to lose interest once the Western Conference finals were over.

Spurs would have given Cleveland a bit of trouble, okc may have gotten swept they just didnt match up well at all vs cavs.

 

[jod23]

Do you actually watch any basketball? I'm beginning to really doubt you do.

He's an elite defensive big, what the hell does averaging 10 and 8 have to do with anything? Love how you bring up his career averages like they're some huge indication of him not being that good. Yeah you're right, he's clearly only as good as the likes of Randle, Gortat, Vucevic etc.

He's averaging 7 assists the past 2 seasons as a power forward. Who else has ever done that while being an elite defensive big? The hall of fame has no single criteria when it comes to making it. A winner like Draymond who is sure to continue to accumulate accolades is well on the way to being a hall of famer. Him being a fourth option is irrelevant.

The fact you make such dumb comparisons to guys like Gortat etc speaks volumes to how ignorant you are about the modern NBA. Seriously, your posts come across like you've watched nothing but MJ documentaries for the past 20 years.

This Warriors team is amazing. They've got the greatest offence of all time and are a top 15 all time defence right now. They're 49-9. They've been brilliant all season and simply aren't as worried about a record like they were last year.

And LeBron plays in a period where Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Russell Westbrook and Steph Curry all exist. Other than Curry all of those guys have had plenty of seasons where they've had the freedom to score as much as they like. LeBron was more worried about winning titles and getting his teammates involved, yet his scoring average is one of the best of all time. He's a great scorer, you're just completely wrong and refuse to admit it.

You're too easy.

 

[jod23]

Curry was the NBA steals leader last season so has a reasonable defensive side to his game.

Is Ben Wallace a lock for the HOF? 4 time defensive player of the year, just like Mutombo.

I think this debate is going around in circles because of the word 'lock'. I'm not sure Draymond Green can claim to being a guaranteed HOFer at this point, which is what being a lock means. Will he make it? Probably. But who knows. Using Jordan as a comparison (which isn't really fair on anyone) by the same age he was a scoring leader, MVP, all star, defensive POTY, all NBA first team, all NBA defensive first team etc. all before Chicago's 3-peats. You could've easily called him a HOF lock at that point, and from then on he elevated from HOF to GOAT status - depending who you talk to obviously. I'm a huge Draymond Green fan but his HOF status is dependent on what he does from here on in, which to me says calling him a lock is ridiculous.

Some common sense!

 

[PP34]

You're too easy.

You're not trolling

 

[jod23]

In that season four Eastern Conference teams won 50+ games as opposed to two last year. It was also 8/11 teams into the playoffs rather than 8/15. GSW actually won 30 games also and finished last in the West. Ridiculous system having 23 teams and 16 of them making the playoffs.

The East was stronger/more even in the 90s when the Bulls were winning championships compared to the 80s when it was Lakers vs Celtics each year. New York, Indiana, Orlando, Detroit all had strong teams at various points in the Bulls reign.

In the last couple of seasons the West has been a lot stronger. Cavs vs Spurs or OKC would've been a great finals series. GSW vs anyone other than Cavs would've been a walkover. This year with Durant moving has watered it down a bit, though. GSW should cruise past anyone other than Spurs in the playoffs.

Yeah, strength of a conference isn't really defined by the number of wins of the 8th seed. I mean the 7th seed had 39 wins, which isn't too bad considering there were only 11 teams in the conference.

I mean just look at that Eastern conference that year. The top 3 teams of Celtics, Bucks and Philly is better than any team LeBron has faced in the last few years before the finals.

Look at the 3rd seed of Philly. It had Moses Malone, Barkley, Erving, Cheeks and McAdoo. Talk about a ******* good team that was only good enough to finish with the 3rd seed in the East.

Getting owned here Andrew3737

 

[jod23]

You're not trolling

Of course i was. I was being ridiculous by arguing for blokes like Randle and Gortat who have better numbers that Draymond with points and rebounds.

I got ridiculous with it because calling Green a lock for the HOF already is also ridiculous.

 

[PP34]

Of course i was. I was being ridiculous by arguing for blokes like Randle and Gortat who have better numbers that Draymond with points and rebounds.

I got ridiculous with it because calling Green a lock for the HOF already is also ridiculous.

Except nobody said that.

 

[Damon_3388]

Curry is okay defensively, but gets away with a lot of gambling because of the likes of Bogut and now Green and Durant to rotate over if he doesn't get the ball.

It's kind of like how Iverson used to perpetually lead the league or be among the league leaders in steals, despite not being an especially good individual defensive player. Used to gamble a lot and use his quickness, with the safety of good defensive players and big men playing goalie behind him.

 

[Andrew3737]

Of course i was. I was being ridiculous by arguing for blokes like Randle and Gortat who have better numbers that Draymond with points and rebounds.

I got ridiculous with it because calling Green a lock for the HOF already is also ridiculous.

Getting owned here Andrew3737

 

[PP34]

It's kind of like how Iverson used to perpetually lead the league or be among the league leaders in steals, despite not being an especially good individual defensive player. Used to gamble a lot and use his quickness, with the safety of good defensive players and big men playing goalie behind him.

That's why I've always taken defensive stats with a grain of salt. Blocks and steals really don't tell the whole story.

Blocks especially with guys like Ibaka who go chasing for blocks. That's why I always rated the likes of Duncan and Garnett so highly defensively. Particularly as they got older there were better shot blockers out there, but these two always contested shots smartly and could defend multiple rotations because they weren't flying at players.

Anthony Davis is a classic example right now. He's been a good shot blocker all his career in the NBA but really has never hit the heights he did at Kentucky defensively. He might average more blocks than Draymond, but there's no way I'd even consider taking him over Draymond defensively.

 

[jod23]

Except nobody said that.

Erm... yes they did. Apparently Lebron has to beat a team with 4 future HOFers. It's been said a lot.

 

[jod23]

You know you've won the argument when all your opponent has left is posting pics. Unlucky mate. Maybe next time.