Science/Environment The Carbon Debate, pt III

[wadistance]

So how are they influencing the chinese government?
What about those zany north korean's? Surely they won't let your faceless men influence the logical decision to go Solar. Silly old Kim Jong just think coal is still cool?

North Korea are that backward that their cars use wood as an energy source

You're that backward that you don't think that coal companies around the world pay big money to the governments of their respective companies.

Even though it just doesn't happen in Australia, Why do you think Gillard was swiftly disposed of?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What a s**t response...

Did you want me to falsely claim that you and your neighbour are doing a great job saving the planet?

If we totally removed Australia from the planet right now it would reduce CO2 emissions by 1.2%.

I'd suggest the increase in CO2 emissions by China alone would cancel it out in less than 6 months, and that's now with their reduced expansion of Coal energy.

Suggesting that "everyone should do their bit" is not the solution.

But if we like the "per-capita" argument here's one.
Australia has 3266 Tree's per person.
China has 102 tree's per person.
India has 28 tree's per person.
USA 716. Brazil 1494.
Canada 8593.
Russia 4461
Indonesian Borneo 319
Germany 147
UK 47.
Middle east countries : less than 1.

Best not remove Australia right now, the others can use our oxygen.
( it takes 7 or 8 trees to provide enough oxygen for one person, though of course grass , shrubs and other plants produce it too ).

Do we get per-capita carbon credits?

 

[nut]

Did you want me to falsely claim that you and your neighbour are doing a great job saving the planet?

If we totally removed Australia from the planet right now it would reduce CO2 emissions by 1.2%.

I'd suggest the increase in CO2 emissions by China alone would cancel it out in less than 6 months, and that's now with their reduced expansion of Coal energy.

Suggesting that "everyone should do their bit" is not the solution.

But if we like the "per-capita" argument here's one.
Australia has 3266 Tree's per person.
China has 102 tree's per person.
India has 28 tree's per person.
USA 716. Brazil 1494.
Canada 8593.
Russia 4461
Indonesian Borneo 319
Germany 147
UK 47.
Middle east countries : less than 1.

Best not remove Australia right now, the others can use our oxygen.
( it takes 7 or 8 trees to provide enough oxygen for one person, though of course grass , shrubs and other plants produce it too ).

Do we get per-capita carbon credits?

Wow we are talking about trees now? I feel my self running out of oxygen as I read your posts.

I did see this recently

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...50-million-trees-uttar-pradesh-reforestation/

So you are worried about oxygen but don't care if we mix it with CO2? Are we running out of oxygen?


My neighbor has paid off his system long ago... I make a profit from my feed in. My motivation was financial.. side product is My house is pretty much carbon neutral and I pump back renewable energy into the grid.

If everyone did thier bit they also could be sustainable... that's good isn't it? Free power?

I hope one day I will be able to disconnect from the grid. The more people who do will create a smaller population left to pay for the grid... power will go up and up... look up Death Spiral.
With out good government policy, which has to include large storage capabilities, it will end up a mess.

The stupidest thing the state governments did was hand over our power grids to the private sector.
SA government now having to buy back into a stupid rigged market.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Wow we are talking about trees now? I feel my self running out of oxygen as I read your posts.

I did see this recently

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...50-million-trees-uttar-pradesh-reforestation/

So you are worried about oxygen but don't care if we mix it with CO2? Are we running out of oxygen?


My neighbor has paid off his system long ago... I make a profit from my feed in. My motivation was financial.. side product is My house is pretty much carbon neutral and I pump back renewable energy into the grid.

If everyone did thier bit they also could be sustainable... that's good isn't it? Free power?

I hope one day I will be able to disconnect from the grid. The more people who do will create a smaller population left to pay for the grid... power will go up and up... look up Death Spiral.
With out good government policy, which has to include large storage capabilities, it will end up a mess.

The stupidest thing the state governments did was hand over our power grids to the private sector.
SA government now having to buy back into a stupid rigged market.

You do understand the relationship between tree's , Oxygen and CO2 don't you?

If everyone had the same solar system as you, ( and I ), the government would be paying top dollar for electricity they didn't need on sunny days, while the utilities would be selling everyone premium priced electricity when solar was not working.

 

[nut]

You do understand the relationship between tree's , Oxygen and CO2 don't you?

If everyone had the same solar system as you, ( and I ), the government would be paying top dollar for electricity they didn't need on sunny days, while the utilities would be selling everyone premium priced electricity when solar was not working.

Yep.... that's the problem... not solar... not wind... not renewables. It's the privately owned utilities that rig the market.
SA will end up with cheaper power now the government has stepped in... VIC and NSW will have to cover the loss of revenue that the private utilities expect... stupid system do you agree?

If only we hadnt privatised.

 

[igon value]

If we totally removed Australia from the planet right now it would reduce CO2 emissions by 1.2%.

The disingenuousness is palpable.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep.... that's the problem... not solar... not wind... not renewables. It's the privately owned utilities that rig the market.
SA will end up with cheaper power now the government has stepped in... VIC and NSW will have to cover the loss of revenue that the private utilities expect... stupid system do you agree?

If only we hadnt privatised.

People envisioned this National Grid, it sounds great, but transmitting electricity over long distances is not a great idea. It never made sense for SA to buy from Victoria, and Victoria's surplus energy is not what it was.

The household cost of electricity is artificially high.
Generators charge what they charge.
Transmission infrastructure charges what they charge.
Retailer chooses Generator and sells the power to you at a markup so they make a profit no matter where they source it.

Was interesting where i work, we use what i'd describe as a moderate amount of electricity. Retailers fall over themselves to offer us crazy low prices.
We had a solar company look at it. If we had installed solar panels, it would have been purely for "we are green" marketing. There was no way we could get an economic benefit. Our regular pricing was too cheap. I went to a seminar at Ford Australia , where they told us they had abandoned plans for energy savings in favor of aggressive purchasing.
The subsidized feed in tariffs made solar a good deal for some home installations, but it needs to be way cheaper for business.

 

[nut]

The household cost of electricity is artificially high.
Generators charge what they charge.
Transmission infrastructure charges what they charge.
Retailer chooses Generator and sells the power to you at a markup so they make a profit no matter where they source it.

Was interesting where i work, we use what i'd describe as a moderate amount of electricity. Retailers fall over themselves to offer us crazy low prices.
.

So households are subsidising businesses....
Electricity companies can choose which businesses they subsidise ... which could make or break a company...

Doesn't sound like a free market to me...

If only we hadn't privatised.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So households are subsidising businesses....
Electricity companies can choose which businesses they subsidise ... which could make or break a company...

Doesn't sound like a free market to me...

If only we hadn't privatised.

Its not subsidized , its still sold at a profit, just less, because they want the big business.
Its like everything.
You go to a shop and want to buy a bolt for something.
They charge you five bucks.
You buy 10 000 bolts a month, they charge you 50c a bolt and the reps from the other bolt sellers come around to try to get you to buy theirs instead.
Then you sell the bolts as spare parts for ten bucks.


I have massive issues regarding retailers who don't add any value. A lot of the Electricity suppliers fall into that category.

If we had not privatized the victorian government would have built another coal station the size of loy yang years ago. ( retiring hazelwood in the process).
The old SEC had some very big issues though. ( efficency , productivity, general rorting of everything ).
Maybe if they had sacked everyone and started again with a NEW government owned power supplier it might have worked.

 

[nut]

LMFAO.... well done SA premier.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...ay-weatherill-trade-blows/8359074?pfmredir=sm

 

[Lebbo73]

LMFAO.... well done SA premier.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-...ay-weatherill-trade-blows/8359074?pfmredir=sm

Well done for what? Losing his cool.

 

[nut]

Well done for what? Losing his cool.

I think spoke perfectly

 

[Gough]

I think spoke perfectly

This will be like Gillard's misogyny speech, the Libs will have a king seize dummy spit at being exposed for what they are, while everybody else will loudly aplaud it.

 

[nut]

This will be like Gillard's misogyny speech, the Libs will have a king seize dummy spit at being exposed for what they are, while everybody else will loudly aplaud it.

Just when Turnbul thought he was up and about and had control of the energy debate... and then they wheel out frightenburg.... lol.
Talk about getting pants.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

All just political points gathering.

Lets watch them both turn their schemes into massive cost blow outs that don't work properly.

 

[Gough]

All just political points gathering.

Lets watch them both turn their schemes into massive cost blow outs that don't work properly.

This is just an extension of they're both as bad as each other argument so beloved of conservatives when they're making a hash of government. They're much more cocksure in opposition.

 

[nut]

The stupidity of our country is continually failing in areas where success stories are every where.

Renewables being one.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/on-cl...rmany-is-a-success-story-20151202-gldimv.html


The bullshit that it costs more is just bullshit.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The stupidity of our country is continually failing in areas where success stories are every where.

Renewables being one.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/on-cl...rmany-is-a-success-story-20151202-gldimv.html


The bullshit that it costs more is just bullshit.

Really?
Is it amazing that the country in Europe with the best economy can afford to subsidise this stuff.
That's what your link says they are doing.

That growth was fuelled by massive subsidies. Last year, German households paid 23 billion euros ($24.3 billion), about 572 euros per family, in feed-in tariffs, or surcharges on energy bills that guarantee "clean power" producers can cover their costs. The results were, in the skeptics' eyes, less than optimal. Though solar generation accounts for 19 percent of Germany's total capacity, it produces just 5 percent of the country's electricity. For wind, these shares are 18 percent and 8 percent, respectively. By contrast, lignite (so-called brown coal, which has high CO2 emissions when burned) accounts for 12 percent installed capacity but 25 percent of electricity output.

 

[nut]

Really?
Is it amazing that the country in Europe with the best economy can afford to subsidise this stuff.
That's what your link says they are doing.

That growth was fuelled by massive subsidies. Last year, German households paid 23 billion euros ($24.3 billion), about 572 euros per family, in feed-in tariffs, or surcharges on energy bills that guarantee "clean power" producers can cover their costs. The results were, in the skeptics' eyes, less than optimal. Though solar generation accounts for 19 percent of Germany's total capacity, it produces just 5 percent of the country's electricity. For wind, these shares are 18 percent and 8 percent, respectively. By contrast, lignite (so-called brown coal, which has high CO2 emissions when burned) accounts for 12 percent installed capacity but 25 percent of electricity output.

Are you arguing there is a cost to converting to renewables??? Of course there is. However the Germans are now seeing a downward pressure on power costs due to the cheaper renewables...


From the same article


......which drove the share of wind energy in the German grid above 50 percent and the spot price of electricity to zero, or so close to it as to make no difference.

 

[CD Xbow]

The state of the great barrier reef would seem to indicate we have got to make progress on reducing the rise in global temperatures. Some of the arguments in this thread sound like they have come straight from a Spew Corp shill, indeed this article from the Cairns Post includes nearly every piece of disinformation conspiracies and outright lies used by the 'deniers'. http://news.google.com.au/news/url?sr=1&sa=t&ct2=au/0_0_s_24_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFUexqjbgZRuSUWQab2vHexlJXxcw&did=ec0ab37f6249dc3f&cid=52779421838230&ei=D2vLWIjBIY2z4AK7q4GIBQ&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/opinion/are-carbon-emissions-really-causing-coral-bleaching/news-story/0ac8a8ee6e150820bf7aa85fbbc1ba35

This factually challenged but entertaining piece was written by a toady called Julian Tomlinson, I wonder if it's the pr0n star? He was certainly better in skin flicks than as a writer.

Added: I have emailed him.

 

[Power Raid]

Really?
Is it amazing that the country in Europe with the best economy can afford to subsidise this stuff.
That's what your link says they are doing.

That growth was fuelled by massive subsidies. Last year, German households paid 23 billion euros ($24.3 billion), about 572 euros per family, in feed-in tariffs, or surcharges on energy bills that guarantee "clean power" producers can cover their costs. The results were, in the skeptics' eyes, less than optimal. Though solar generation accounts for 19 percent of Germany's total capacity, it produces just 5 percent of the country's electricity. For wind, these shares are 18 percent and 8 percent, respectively. By contrast, lignite (so-called brown coal, which has high CO2 emissions when burned) accounts for 12 percent installed capacity but 25 percent of electricity output.

The maths in the article doesn't add up

if it is 5% solar and 8% wind how the hell do they get 33%. There is no way there is 20% biomass or hydro.

 

[Power Raid]

The state of the great barrier reef would seem to indicate we have got to make progress on reducing the rise in global temperatures. Some of the arguments in this thread sound like they have come straight from a Spew Corp shill, indeed this article from the Cairns Post includes nearly every piece of disinformation conspiracies and outright lies used by the 'deniers'. http://news.google.com.au/news/url?sr=1&sa=t&ct2=au/0_0_s_24_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFUexqjbgZRuSUWQab2vHexlJXxcw&did=ec0ab37f6249dc3f&cid=52779421838230&ei=D2vLWIjBIY2z4AK7q4GIBQ&rt=STORY&vm=STANDARD&url=http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/opinion/are-carbon-emissions-really-causing-coral-bleaching/news-story/0ac8a8ee6e150820bf7aa85fbbc1ba35

This factually challenged but entertaining piece was written by a toady called Julian Tomlinson, I wonder if it's the pr0n star? He was certainly better in skin flicks than as a writer.

Added: I have emailed him.

anyone that has been to cairns would note the reef has been in many locations including the current beach and 100m up the mountain side. This suggests the reef is far more hardy than some represent and have coped with global warming and cooling.

David Attenborough did a good story on the reef and it was worth noting what some scientists were discussing in the middle part of the documentary. Definitely worth taking the time to watch, especially where the section with scientists rather than environmentalists.

 

[Power Raid]

Are you arguing there is a cost to converting to renewables??? Of course there is. However the Germans are now seeing a downward pressure on power costs due to the cheaper renewables...


From the same article


......which drove the share of wind energy in the German grid above 50 percent and the spot price of electricity to zero, or so close to it as to make no difference.

do you know what a spot price is?

 

[nut]

Cost per wholesale megawatt is in free fall in Germany ....due to sustainable renewables.


https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/glo.../electricity-prices-in-a-free-fall-478046/amp

 

[igon value]

anyone that has been to cairns would note the reef has been in many locations including the current beach and 100m up the mountain side. This suggests the reef is far more hardy than some represent and have coped with global warming and cooling.

Loool.