Play Nice Bye Bye Brad #3 [Locked: BS signs 2-year ext. Aug-2017, tied to NM until end 2020]

[Mav]

So your on the same page that Carey's improvement would have stalled without Pagan? Just a good ordinary player without Denis?

You can back you little mate up as much as you like but this has to be too much - even for you.

Where did I say any of that? You just love making shit up,

 

[Wild Bill]

Where did I say any of that? You just love making shit up,

So what's your view on it?

 

[ferball]

You can't separate Pagan and North's success in the 90s from him coaching many of them very successfully in the u19s.

He might have been useless if he'd come in from somewhere else.

North might have been like Geelong and Ablett sr without Pagan too.

Pagan and the 90s team are special because they had long standing relationships and his appointment as coach in '93 had lots elements of someone coming home to do some unfinished business.

 

[Wild Bill]

Yeah it is unreal with Ranieri getting the sack. The Premier League is far more ruthless on their coaches than the AFL is unless you're Arsenal. :stern look

Yeah and the last time I checked opening the forward line to allow Carey and Co to strut their stuff was called Pagan's Paddock. I wonder why? Thanks for pointing that out mav.

You think leaving one of the goat players 1 out and using bash and crash footy to get the ball forward any way possible was genius? The paddock was basic and very effective due to Carey being exceptional.

 

[Mav]

So what's your view on it?

As I said he would have an influence on his development. He would have taught him a lot about the game. If coaches aren't doing this, then what the **** are they there for?
You are the person I know that advocates keeping someone on in a position while trumpeting that said posotion is redundant!

 

[Saintly35]

I'm assuming that "sustained success" doesn't mean we never drop away from the 8. More that there is enough ongoing drafting consistency to ensure that the next realistic tilt is only ever 18-24 months away when we slip - rather than 5 year rebuilds (boom and bust).

No, it should mean we stay in top 8? Swans, Cats and Hawks have done it?

Brad said we haven't compromised our flag tilt by playing only those deserved, making sure kept draft picks, talked a very tough game about being bitterly disappointed, hope to match best teams and so on.........it's come to nothing.

Not even one top 4 finish. Geriatrics relied upon to the end. Even said he'd feel forced to play them unless delisted?!

We've achieved nothing yet, and round one as a first example suggests nothing different going forward.

 

[shintemaster]

No, it should mean we stay in top 8? Swans, Cats and Hawks have done it?

Brad said we haven't compromised our flag tilt by playing only those deserved, making sure kept draft picks (apparently with Petrie and Wells.....ha), talked a very tough game about being bitterly disappointed, hope to match best teams and so on.........it's come to nothing.

Not even one top 4 finish.

We've achieved nothing yet, and round one as a first example suggests nothing different going forward.

Cats and Hawks loaded up massively on talent via F/S rule and priority picks, hit their peaks before the draft destruction of NSW/QLD teams and then traded on those players they already had. Personally I'm of the opinion that the gutting of the draft meant that they've had elevated runs at the top.

BTW Geelong did drop out for a year and only got back because they had a local son demand he got there.

 

[Wild Bill]

As I said he would have an influence on his development. He would have taught him a lot about the game. If coaches aren't doing this, then what the **** are they there for?
You are the person I know that advocates keeping someone on in a position while trumpeting that said posotion is redundant!

It's not the question - if pagan didn't arrive in 93 Carey's development would have stalled. Yes or no?

Coaches have a role to play but I have posted many times that with out great players how good of a coach they are counts for little. Pagan was awesome at giving a spray - I will pay him that.

 

[Wild Bill]

I don't think he will survive past next year but the melt if they extend would be priceless!!

 

[DesertRoo]

It's not the question - if pagan didn't arrive in 93 Carey's development would have stalled. Yes or no?

Coaches have a role to play but I have posted many times that with out great players how good of a coach they are counts for little. Pagan was awesome at giving a spray - I will pay him that.

Carey would not have played afl, he'd be playing with his bro in Adelaide without Pagan... but don't let that get in the way.

 

[Saintly35]

Cats and Hawks loaded up massively on talent via F/S rule and priority picks, hit their peaks before the draft destruction of NSW/QLD teams and then traded on those players they already had. Personally I'm of the opinion that the gutting of the draft meant that they've had elevated runs at the top.

BTW Geelong did drop out for a year and only got back because they had a local son demand he got there.

That undersells what those clubs achieved.

It's easy to pass off our failure because not enough picks, F'S, coach etc.

Fact is with our very talented list, we topped up with 3 high priced (not quality) free agents we brought in, and we failed.

Sure the draft in recent years sucks. But that's teams for a while now.

Our core remains, and our younger players could easily be better than those who've left.

 

[shintemaster]

That undersells what those clubs achieved.

It's easy to pass off our failure because not enough picks, F'S, coach etc.

Fact is with our very talented list, we topped up with 3 high quality (dal....) free agents we brought in, we failed.

The fact their gone should not mean we are not competitive. Our core remains, and our younger players could easily be better than those who've left.

It's not just our failure though is it? History has shown that there was a signficant dominance across the top of the competition over the last decade to a handful of clubs. Take it as you like. Just IMO that Geelong / Hawthorn were handed a massive leg up (unintentionally). We've never had a priority pick. Hawthorn in one year picked up two players with picks 2 & 4. Our highest ever picks are what, 3 & 5?

 

[Saintly35]

It's not just our failure though is it? History has shown that there was a signficant dominance across the top of the competition over the last decade to a handful of clubs. Take it as you like. Just IMO that Geelong / Hawthorn were handed a massive leg up (unintentionally).

No, not just us. Plenty of "us" have failed (not sure celebrating failure because others fail also is healthy). The AFL has shafted many, including us.

But that is not relevant to Scott being a poor coach.

With a Clarkson I'm very confident during his tenure we have a 5th flag, as our list is/was as talented as theirs...........

 

[Wild Bill]

That undersells what those clubs achieved.

It's easy to pass off our failure because not enough picks, F'S, coach etc.

Fact is with our very talented list, we topped up with 3 high priced (not quality) free agents we brought in, and we failed.

Sure the draft in recent years sucks. But that's teams for a while now.

Our core remains, and our younger players could easily be better than those who've left.

You looked at our list the last few years and thought this was a premiership quality list?

 

[Saintly35]

You looked at our list the last few years and thought this was a premiership quality list?

Back to the players again.

This from a list built for 7 years with Free Agency top ups.

If not Premiership quality why did we even bother going hard to start with?

Makes no sense.

 

[Wild Bill]

It's not just our failure though is it? History has shown that there was a signficant dominance across the top of the competition over the last decade to a handful of clubs. Take it as you like. Just IMO that Geelong / Hawthorn were handed a massive leg up (unintentionally). We've never had a priority pick. Hawthorn in one year picked up two players with picks 2 & 4. Our highest ever picks are what, 3 & 5?

2, 4 and 7 - Buddy, Roughy and Lewis. Fair building blocks.

Gaz Jr and Scarlett two of the Cats all time greats. Handy F&S. They also smashed 1 draft to set up their dynasty - Enright, Chapman, Ling and Corey.

 

[Wild Bill]

Back to the players again.

This from a list built for 7 years with Free Agency top ups.

If not Premiership quality why did we even bother going hard to start with?

Makes no sense.

Our last 7 - 1st round picks from 2010.
8 - Father/Son
12
15
16
17
18
19

That makes it really tough.

 

[Saintly35]

Our last 7 - 1st round picks from 2010.
8 - Father/Son
12
15
16
17
18
19

That makes it really tough.

So you're suggesting the team we've had could not win a flag in last few years?

And despite holding picks, as apparently already good enough, need to go bottom to win a flag? That's a well rehearsed and failed theory.

 

[hotham]

So you credit our success in the 90's Pagan? Carey was much more important. It all started with his 93 season. Great timing for Denis.

He had a 37% winning record at the Blues. There is a reason the coach of the team of the decade was named coach of the year only once.

Stern chook has turned into a stern turkey with his gobbles.

Carey being at NM was due us having a very good recruiter in Greg Miller. There were so many others who contributed to NM's success in the 90's. Having a great player doesn't necessarily deliver a flag, Malcolm Blight had Garry Albett at Geelong but didn't become a premiership coach until at the Crows. I think for a club to win premierships it is combination of having strengths in many areas.

 

[Zondor]

You think leaving one of the goat players 1 out and using bash and crash footy to get the ball forward any way possible was genius? The paddock was basic and very effective due to Carey being exceptional.

Had it ever been done before? Would Mark Neeld have come up with the idea? It wasn't just Carey who benefited from the tactic. Guys like Abraham and Allison kicked a number of goals running into open space utilising their pace. Anyways you keep on avoiding the question at hand. Why do "Sporting Organisations of Note" have coaches? Why? Answer the question. :stern look

 

[ferball]

Carey being at NM was due us having a very good recruiter in Greg Miller. There were so many others who contributed to NM's success in the 90's. Having a great player doesn't necessarily deliver a flag, Malcolm Blight had Garry Albett at Geelong but didn't become a premiership coach until at the Crows. I think for a club to win premierships it is combination of having strengths in many areas.

True.

Tho tbh I'd kind of forgotten just how good Carey was.

That match he played in last year showed just how good he was. He was head and shoulders above everyone else as far as class goes imo. Non stop thru the game he was pick up, usually already clear, turn and deliver - mostly to the woman at full forward and nearly every time to someones advantage. At least compared to everyone else. It really stood out to me. And it was obvious he was an old man, footy wise, but still his class - just beautiful to watch. He probably was the best ever.

But the whole side had a brutal, intimidating backline, an amazing midfield and classy forwards without Carey. Still probably good enough to challenge for at least one flag in the 90s.

 

[Frank Thring]

I don't think he will survive past next year but the melt if they extend would be priceless!!

Would match the melt my membership card would cop

 

[Gasometer]

Had it ever been done before? Would Mark Neeld have come up with the idea? It wasn't just Carey who benefited from the tactic. Guys like Abraham and Allison kicked a number of goals running into open space utilising their pace. Anyways you keep on avoiding the question at hand. Why do "Sporting Organisations of Note" have coaches? Why? Answer the question. Stop being a soft ****. :stern look

Peter Bell was talking on radio before the Freo v Cats game last weekend.

When asked about the game plan it was simple 'kick it to Carey '.

When asked about Pagan he was 'scary'.

When asked about winning culture he said 'they always expected to win' because they had Carey.

Stein look.

 

[ferball]

I agree the big move - player X from backline to forward or whatever to change the game - is kind of an outdated concept. Sort of Sheedy vintage. The Hawthorn model of training and playing, however, so almost everyone can play somewhere else if it will help, and regularly move about during games, seems to have been keeping everyone fresh and oppositions on their toes.

Yeah. I was actually thinking of Sheedy when i typed all that.

For me its hard to know if Scott is trying to do something similar to Clarkeson or just so wedded to structure and has so little faith in players to do the job that he relies on people playing the same positions.

I know most of what people want here is more movement around the field. LT in the middle more, JZ forward, LMac in the middle. Lets try Browny at fullback - they have a run on. That sort of thing. But if you trust your players to do the job it might be harder to let that go. Harder to give up on them coming good and getting on top. There were some obvious times last year when I thought he should have been a bit more creative but when I looked over the game there wasn't really anything he could do. The Geelong game in particular sticks out.

I'd like to see more flexibility too, but only if its gonna be useful.

 

[Zondor]

Peter Bell was talking on radio before the Freo v Cats game last weekend.

When asked about the game plan it was simple 'kick it to Carey '.

When asked about Pagan he was 'scary'.

When asked about winning culture he said 'they always expected to win' because they had Carey.

Stein look.

And what was the Game Plan under Schimma? Imagine what the game plan with Carey in the side would have been under a Bright Spark like Mark Neeld? Play Carey at Centre Half Back? Oh don't go short selling Pagan because of Peter Bell's off the cuff remarks. :stern look