Racing Where does Winx now sit in Hall of fame

[AvantGardener]

When Might & Power wins a Warwick Stakes come to me

Would have beaten Hartnell at 1400m. A race won by Royal Descent and Pinwheel x2 please.

 

[Matty_G]

How I'd rate those above I've seen


Black Caviar 136
Winx 135
So You Think 134
Might and Power 132
Saintly 132
Northerly 132
Sunline 131
Makye Diva 130
Hay List 130
Dundeel 128
Atlantic Jewell 128
Americain 127
Dunaden 127
Grand Armee 127
Lankan Rupee 127
All Too Hard 126
Weekend Hussler 125
Sepoy 125

Pierro?

FWIW, I think Sepoy & Pierro are quite similar being the 2 best juvenile horses of the recent era (guess you could make a case for SYT since he won a Cox plate at 3 but he really hit his straps as an older horse). Although Sepoy was only tried over sprint trips where as Pierro won a George Ryder and placed in a Doncaster & Cox Plate I would also have Sepoy ahead of Pierro.

 

[FallingLiefs]

whats your obsession with Ascot? no one except hte poms gives a rats arse. If the pommy horses were fair dinkum they would travel to Japan for the prize money but you know what would happen? half of them would break down cos the tracks were too hard and most of the other half would finish tailed off because the pace would be frenetic.
English racing is rubbish, the prize money is s**t, the fields are small in the supposed good staying races and your precious pacemakers just mean the races are rigged

I think you will find this to be wrong. Prizemoney is irrelevant over there for the big owner/breeders. As for field sizes it's the same as Winx theory the further away you get from the so called average horse the less horses there are available to race at that standard.

Formwise uk, ire and France stack up around the world.

 

[FallingLiefs]

I would probably rank the jurisdictions in breeding

IRE
-
JPN
AUS=USA
GB
FR
-
GER
NZ

 

[iluvparis]

Would have beaten Hartnell at 1400m. A race won by Royal Descent and Pinwheel x2 please.

Unlikely given it couldn't beat that all time champion of the Australian turf 'What Can I Say'

 

[iluvparis]

Pierro?

FWIW, I think Sepoy & Pierro are quite similar being the 2 best juvenile horses of the recent era (guess you could make a case for SYT since he won a Cox plate at 3 but he really hit his straps as an older horse). Although Sepoy was only tried over sprint trips where as Pierro won a George Ryder and placed in a Doncaster & Cox Plate I would also have Sepoy ahead of Pierro.

Pierro I'd have 126 alongside ATH - SYT's Cox Plate win panels better than anything either of those two did at 3 and an infinitely superior horse.

 

[Lebbo73]

On that basis you are saying Winx beats Frankel at 1600 which is frankly insane - that's why I think BC > Winx (just)

Frankel had a pacemaker and he never left the UK.

 

[iluvparis]

Frankel had a pacemaker and he never left the UK.

Yeah the pacemaker was why he was so good

 

[Lebbo73]

Yeah the pacemaker was why he was so good

He was very good. I just don't think he would have been as dominant if he raced against Winx in Australia. Winx would probably have the same problems in the UK.

 

[HeathySure]

When Might & Power wins a Warwick Stakes come to me

LOL cos thats an achievement

So rubbish the Japanese get belted there every time they turn up.

at least they turn up

 

[HeathySure]

As you repeatedly fail to comprehend - these are peak ratings - and I've already said M&P's peaks were up there with the best of them. He just wasn't that consistent.

Underrated would be Saintly who I boosted 4 pounds on his timeform rating.

is this the Saintly you said was over rated and only went the Melbourne way? ok

 

[HeathySure]

I think you will find this to be wrong. Prizemoney is irrelevant over there for the big owner/breeders. As for field sizes it's the same as Winx theory the further away you get from the so called average horse the less horses there are available to race at that standard.

Formwise uk, ire and France stack up around the world.

so how long will prizemoney be irrelevant when they keep losing money. Sounds like a bunch of Nathan Tinklers to me. The sheiks are not good for racing, cos when they die or retire and their family is not interested who is going to keep paying for the horses? The average bloke wont be able to afford to race them and goodbye racing industry,
as for Field sizes, pre the breeding industry running and ruining Australias horse racing industry we had big quality fields all the time. just like Japan.

 

[HeathySure]

I would probably rank the jurisdictions in breeding

IRE
-
JPN
AUS=USA
GB
FR
-
GER
NZ

depends on the type of horses, you talk stayers New Zealand is above Australia, you talk speedy squibs Australia way past the rest of the world.

 

[FallingLiefs]

so how long will prizemoney be irrelevant when they keep losing money. Sounds like a bunch of Nathan Tinklers to me. The sheiks are not good for racing, cos when they die or retire and their family is not interested who is going to keep paying for the horses? The average bloke wont be able to afford to race them and goodbye racing industry,
as for Field sizes, pre the breeding industry running and ruining Australias horse racing industry we had big quality fields all the time. just like Japan.

yeah i don't think Juddmonte and Coolmore are really losing money... but that has zero effect on the quality of racing? so what if it's unsustainable you are saying that it's not good racing right now where you are categorically wrong.

 

[FallingLiefs]

whats your obsession with Ascot? no one except hte poms gives a rats arse. If the pommy horses were fair dinkum they would travel to Japan for the prize money but you know what would happen? half of them would break down cos the tracks were too hard and most of the other half would finish tailed off because the pace would be frenetic.
English racing is rubbish, the prize money is s**t, the fields are small in the supposed good staying races and your precious pacemakers just mean the races are rigged

the question should be what's your obsession with japan? hardly anyone goes there and no one gives a rats arse until they travel.

Japan cup $7mil AUD
Breeders cup Turf $4mil AUD
HK cup $5mil
Arc $8mil
Melbourne Cup $6.5mil

there's high prize money races everywhere.

 

[HeathySure]

yeah i don't think Juddmonte and Coolmore are really losing money... but that has zero effect on the quality of racing? so what if it's unsustainable you are saying that it's not good racing right now where you are categorically wrong.

see thats where you are wrong. You are too young to remember racing in the 80s and early 90s, we had large field sizes pretty every week except in Summer, the horses were more even, there was quality racing on public holidays, Adelaide and Brisbane racing was much healthier Racing was on the back page of the paper rather than 12 pages back as it is these days, there was less rubbish group 1 races and bigger fields with more depth.
I have no interest in watching 5 horse fields with one dominant horse while 2 of the horses in the field are sacrificed to make the pace for the other 3. That is rubbish racing and with pacemakers its not even the spirit of racing. Would you sacrifice one of your horses so others could win? thats just ridiculous. If a horse cant create his own pace and win then hes not very good.
What do you find good about it?

 

[HeathySure]

the question should be what's your obsession with japan? hardly anyone goes there and no one gives a rats arse until they travel.

Japan cup $7mil AUD
Breeders cup Turf $4mil AUD
HK cup $5mil
Arc $8mil
Melbourne Cup $6.5mil

there's high prize money races everywhere.

Not disputing it but if you keep saying they should travel to England to prove they are good then the English horses should travel to prove they are good too. Japan racing surpassed European racing many years ago (by copying Australian racing and breeding), its just that the English have their snobby heads up their arses to see that it has already happened

 

[FallingLiefs]

see thats where you are wrong. You are too young to remember racing in the 80s and early 90s, we had large field sizes pretty every week except in Summer, the horses were more even, there was quality racing on public holidays, Adelaide and Brisbane racing was much healthier Racing was on the back page of the paper rather than 12 pages back as it is these days, there was less rubbish group 1 races and bigger fields with more depth.
I have no interest in watching 5 horse fields with one dominant horse while 2 of the horses in the field are sacrificed to make the pace for the other 3. That is rubbish racing and with pacemakers its not even the spirit of racing. Would you sacrifice one of your horses so others could win? thats just ridiculous. If a horse cant create his own pace and win then hes not very good.
What do you find good about it?

Not disputing it but if you keep saying they should travel to England to prove they are good then the English horses should travel to prove they are good too. Japan racing surpassed racing many years ago (by copying Australian racing and breeding), its just that the English have their snobby heads up their arses to see that it has already happened

Y
Well nothing above is what i was arguing. Japan racing is interesting though. They have a very small population compared to us. The difference with Japan is they've tried to win an and failed with their best.

However what I will say is nothing you state actually differentiates quality of racehorses.have Hong Kong have some of the best handicapped big consistent fields also nd it does not mean s**t. Winx could run against 3 of my camels and it would still be a higher quality race than an 18 horse Hong Kong race.

Field sizes are absolutely irrelevant except for people like you that perceive them and races of distance to somehow be superior.

 

[iluvparis]

is this the Saintly you said was over rated and only went the Melbourne way? ok

??? When did I ever say Saintly was overrated?

 

[iluvparis]

so how long will prizemoney be irrelevant when they keep losing money. Sounds like a bunch of Nathan Tinklers to me. The sheiks are not good for racing, cos when they die or retire and their family is not interested who is going to keep paying for the horses? The average bloke wont be able to afford to race them and goodbye racing industry,
as for Field sizes, pre the breeding industry running and ruining Australias horse racing industry we had big quality fields all the time. just like Japan.

There is no average bloke in UK flat racing - it is the domain of Princes/Sheik's/Queen's and the ultra wealthy.

 

[iluvparis]

Not disputing it but if you keep saying they should travel to England to prove they are good then the English horses should travel to prove they are good too. Japan racing surpassed European racing many years ago (by copying Australian racing and breeding), its just that the English have their snobby heads up their arses to see that it has already happened

You are truly mad - how can you say that Japanese racing has surpassed European racing when they get belted every time they go there?

 

[HeathySure]

Y
Well nothing above is what i was arguing. Japan racing is interesting though. They have a very small population compared to us. The difference with Japan is they've tried to win an and failed with their best.

However what I will say is nothing you state actually differentiates quality of racehorses.have Hong Kong have some of the best handicapped big consistent fields also nd it does not mean s**t. Winx could run against 3 of my camels and it would still be a higher quality race than an 18 horse Hong Kong race.

Field sizes are absolutely irrelevant except for people like you that perceive them and races of distance to somehow be superior.

The japanese have tried and failed, but they are very competitive and if is the Arc we are talking about there is only one winner every year, and they only take a couple of horses over there, if you took a flotilla they would have more horses finish closer to the winners than the Europeans.
You are also underating Hong Kong Horses, yes its a fishbowl, yes they have a lot of horrible horrible horses, but races at class 3 level and better are much better than our standard saturday races, (and max field sizes are 14}

Field sizes are definately relevant if they are quality. you get a field of 12 with 8 quality horses and one superstar it is infinitely harder to win than a field of 5 with 4 quality horses and a superstar. Pace is different, more likely to get further back or trapped wide, its totally different races.
as a spectacle it is much better too.

 

[HeathySure]

??? When did I ever say Saintly was overrated?

if i could work out how to search threads i would find it . but you did say it, you might have said it as a counter to my arguments once, and i know you sometimes do that to get a rise out of me (it works!)

 

[HeathySure]

There is no average bloke in UK flat racing - it is the domain of Princes/Sheik's/Queen's and the ultra wealthy.

do you think thats healthy for racing?

 

[HeathySure]

You are truly mad - how can you say that Japanese racing has surpassed European racing when they get belted every time they go there?

because they are going to the Europeans domain. when the Europeans go to Japan the Europeans get belted too.