Hawthorn FC worst nightmare the 2017 Draft

[doppleganger]

If McEvoy gets injured this year and Vickery is unavailable we will be playing a 19 year Marc Pittonet against guys like Mumford, Jacobs, etc. That's not good for his development. A support player/backup/stop gap is needed. Vickery is that player.

Vickery isnt a 1st ruck.

Jack Fitzpatrick as an emergency option on the rookie list as better back-up stop gap, who was already on the Hawks books.

But the important decision is where is the club at in 2017?

If you are rebuilding, getting some games into Pittonet against the actual class rucks would give him some good experience and things to work on, when the result of the game isnt really important.

If you think you are a contender, then yes of course you get cover knowing Ceglar is already out, if you don't think Fitzpatrick is the answer.

If you are rebuilding, getting games into a kid who may blossom into a player is what you want to do.

Now you have what another two years of Vickery, whilst Ceglar will be back and Pittonet wont be able to get a crack anyway.

Yes, Collingwood has pulled this stop-gap sh1t far too often in recent years and we are now stuck in no man's land.

Henderson was brought in because the only genuine wingmen we have on the list, after losing Hill, are Hartung and Smith. And injury to either of those and we have to start playing flankers on the wing. There aren't enough options to just go in. There's no point playing an young inside mid on a wing - it doesn't help their development.

Yeah you dont put a Tom Mitchell out on the wing.

But if Hawthorn has no kids with decent engines who can spend time on a wing, so much so that they actually went and got a mature recruit in Henderson to play that role, than they are in more trouble than I think they are.

It's been explained. Many times. Try and think beyond the words 'stopgap' being incompatible with 'rebuild'.

Hawthorn has plenty of veterans, recruiting stop-gap senior role players doesnt make sense if they are actually rebuilding.

This is the important thing, a club like North made a call that their list wasn't going to win a flag, they cut veterans who perhaps could have played another year to invest in the next wave.

IMO Hawthorn entered 2017 thinking that they were a legit shot at a flag.

And that is where I believe they have ballsed it up, they actually thought they were a chance at going deep in September again in 2017.

Slotting in Vickery to not expose Pittonet or O'Brien doesnt help the future, adding Henderson in case Smith goes down...it was all about 2017.

They were comfortable moving on one of Mitchell or Lewis, but didnt want to lose both in the one hit...that was a stuff up. Unprecedented to move on your top two from the BnF.

They were confident they could get JOM back on the park, and him and T.Mitchell would give a huge boost to the midfield. That they could de-Richmond Vickery and turn him into another D.Hale, and that their senior players were still good enough that they could challenge again.

Roughy as an unkown trump card, add him back and top4 chance on the cards.

It was all smooth sailing in the off-season, Roughy back, JOM burning up the track. Rd1 hits and the Hawks have another crack team...on paper.

But they got it wrong, mid way point of the season with a % in the 70s is the domain of uncompetitive teams...I guess that is what happens when you lose your best two players and the spirit from the group, replace them with a couple of stop-gaps and a bloke who spends all his time in 'training blocks'.

Misreading where the list was at in 2016 was also why they were happy to offload their first and second round picks in 2017, as they were confident they would be mediocre picks....whoops.

 

[Fetnarr]

In no way is it possible to build a list from the ground up simply through FA and trading, first of all, both of those routes mean you will be paying through the nose in salary cap and draft picks.

Imagine trading or going the FA route trying to put together a list of Franklin, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughead, Hodge etc, not doable and not realistic.

Everyone has said FA and trading is part of the puzzle not the be all and end all. Hawks went trade and FA route last draft and let's say they do the same again this year and land 2 more best 22 players. They then hit the draft for the next 3 years and get 2 young players per year that become best 22. That's 11 new players in 5 years plus the core that are already playing plus the young players currently on the list that are not playing. Of those 11, 5 are ready made senior footballers who don't need much developing. It can work, and writing the list off 6 months into a planned regeneration is just short sited and arrogant. You could be proved right in 5 years time or not but no one knows what is going to happen.

 

[andrewb]

Maybe I'll rephrase

You're not going to get anywhere near it with your current list

Every team in the competition is going to get better than you will in the coming off season, because they have more assets to trade and draft.

You won't have an opportunity to draft top end talent until 2018, which means you'll only start to see the smalls you draft reaching their peak in 2022 and the bigs in 2024

By 2022 who else is left? Hodge, Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall, Gibson, Smith et al will be 32 or over. Even guys like Stratton, Frawley and Rioli will be 30+.

You'll be left with a core of guys like Shiels, Breust, Mitchell, O'Meara, Burton, Sicily surrounded by some kids. That will be a putrid list. Absolutely putrid.

You needed to hit the draft hard last year and this year but instead went the top up route while also trading out your hard earned culture.

Questions should be asked of club management. But they won't. You're all too busy thinking that Hawthorn has some special sauce that will make this process less painful than it has been for everyone else.

 

[Pessimistic]

See my signature.



It was 13 > 1 prior to the introduction of zoning.

Hawthorn only bridged the gap because the VFL decided to hand Hawthorn extra zoning concessions as they were so bad.

Hawthorn had won 1 flag and 11 spoons prior to being given these concessions. The concessions netted the Hawks 8 flags.

Once the VFL became the AFL and the zoning concessions washed out, surprise surprise Hawthorn became a basket case once again.

Then there was the draft concessions of the early-mid 00s the AFL gave Hawthorn because they were so bad. This along with the compromised drafts netted the Hawks 4 flags.

Now that the effects of the compromised drafts have washed out and the players that Hawthorn recruited with their draft concessions are either retired or cooked, surprise surprise the Hawks are once again a basket case.

Take away all these concessions that Hawthorn have received from the VFL/AFL and they are as unsuccessful as St Kilda.

Would have thought the Geelong zone was the Best in the land
Oh yes it was buckets of talent but no cigars just handbags

 

[Pessimistic]

Maybe I'll rephrase

You're not going to get anywhere near it with your current list

Every team in the competition is going to get better than you will in the coming off season, because they have more assets to trade and draft.

You won't have an opportunity to draft top end talent until 2018, which means you'll only start to see the smalls you draft reaching their peak in 2022 and the bigs in 2024

By 2022 who else is left? Hodge, Burgoyne, Roughead, Birchall, Gibson, Smith et al will be 32 or over. Even guys like Stratton, Frawley and Rioli will be 30+.

You'll be left with a core of guys like Shiels, Breust, Mitchell, O'Meara, Burton, Sicily surrounded by some kids. That will be a putrid list. Absolutely putrid.

You needed to hit the draft hard last year and this year but instead went the top up route while also trading out your hard earned culture.

Questions should be asked of club management. But they won't. You're all too busy thinking that Hawthorn has some special sauce that will make this process less painful than it has been for everyone else.

Define putrid on a scale of zero to Essendon 2016

We drafted eight players in 2015 by the way

 

[HeHateMe]

Nothing worth reading there. More fun over on the port board.

Pretty funny after your melt at Lance. Any chance of addressing the post, or just more deflection as usual?

Lmao alright bud, because the two are remotely comparable, turn off notifications for this thread and steer clear because it's obvious you can't engage in normal civilised discussion about your club without getting all emotional and attacking posters and making a dill of yourself trolling players mental health conditions.

You two need a cup of concrete.
Stop having a massive whinge because someone doesnt agree with you. Its embarrassing.

 

[HeHateMe]

Hawks need players in the 23-27 age group. Take hodge, Gibson, Burgoyne out of the team and our avg age is 21.

Thats way to young. Drafting 6 18 yr olds this year wont help. But brining in 2 acadamy kids and a FS along with upgrading cousins and getting a FA and a mature age prospect is a better spread of age.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Gavin Excell]

Yeah, and Geelong have won 19 flags, or whatever other crap you've been posting.

43 flags

 

[andrewb]

Define putrid on a scale of zero to Essendon 2016

We drafted eight players in 2015 by the way

Essendon 2016 at a minimum but I think we will need to go back a few years further for a proper scale.

Btw, in 2015 you drafted 3 and rookied 4.

 

[Saint]

I think the only people who don't know that Hawthorn are in a rebuild and won't be good for another 3-5 years are a handful of fans.

What I don't understand is why the coaching/football committee hasn't openly stated it, they keep saying things like 'we have a list that is capable of winning a flag'.

Nobody outside of Hawthorn thinks the current Hawthorn list is even a remote prospect of winning a flag in the next 3 years. Even if they got Fyfe (they won't, but let's say it's possible) this year on a million a year, they lose Hodge, Burgoyne, Gibson who are probably all on that combined and Hodge/Burgoyne are still amongst the best players this year.

Add another year onto the age of Smith, Breust, Roughy, Rioli, Birchall, Puopolo, the team is still on the downward trajectory, and will be until well into next year, then they've got a big mountain to climb.

 

[blaisee]

I think the only people who don't know that Hawthorn are in a rebuild and won't be good for another 3-5 years are a handful of fans.

What I don't understand is why the coaching/football committee hasn't openly stated it, they keep saying things like 'we have a list that is capable of winning a flag'.

Nobody outside of Hawthorn thinks the current Hawthorn list is even a remote prospect of winning a flag in the next 3 years. Even if they got Fyfe (they won't, but let's say it's possible) this year on a million a year, they lose Hodge, Burgoyne, Gibson who are probably all on that combined and Hodge/Burgoyne are still amongst the best players this year.

Add another year onto the age of Smith, Breust, Roughy, Rioli, Birchall, Puopolo, the team is still on the downward trajectory, and will be until well into next year, then they've got a big mountain to climb.

Who is an eligible free agent player for the hawks this year, IE is Gunstan or Bruest a free agent?

This could be the strategy to get rid of a couple of free agents to get a pick in the top 5 of the draft.

Is this possible?

 

[blaisee]

The other thing I don't understand is why Lewis and Mitchell were traded out for peanuts?

Why did Hawthorn allow this to occur, while at the same time Richmond got a 1st round draft pick and a 3rd round draft pick for Deledio.

Lewis and Deledio are the same age, and at the time would have had the same amount of football left in them, What happened?

It looks like a monumental balls up from Hawthorn, as they should of at least got some currency back in for 2 all time greats.

It doesn't make any sense when you compare what the tigers got for Deledio

 

[WWSD]

Who is an eligible free agent player for the hawks this year, IE is Gunstan or Bruest a free agent?

This could be the strategy to get rid of a couple of free agents to get a pick in the top 5 of the draft.

Is this possible?

No.

There's a reason why Hawthorn signed these six players up long term. They are in that middle part of their careers and are the only Hawks who are 26-28 year bracket. They are the only core players for Hawthorn.

Smith (28) contracted until the end of 2018
Gunston (25) contracted until the end of 2019
Breust (26) contracted until the end of 2021
Shiels (26) contracted until the end of 2019
Rioli (27) contracted until the end of 2020
Stratton (28) contracted until the end of 2019

 

[HeHateMe]

The other thing I don't understand is why Lewis and Mitchell were traded out for peanuts?

Why did Hawthorn allow this to occur, while at the same time Richmond got a 1st round draft pick and a 3rd round draft pick for Deledio.

Lewis and Deledio are the same age, and at the time would have had the same amount of football left in them, What happened?

It looks like a monumental balls up from Hawthorn, as they should of at least got some currency back in for 2 all time greats.

It doesn't make any sense when you compare what the tigers got for Deledio

Yeah i agree with you. But the reason was:

Hawks wanted to give back to these guys for the few years they have knocked back offers (more $$$) from rivals to stay at the club and win premerships. Accepting offers lower thrn there asking price.

They wanted to return the favor by making there exits as easy as possible.

Hawthorn most certainly wanted more for Lewis. But after the Mitchell deal thet was never going to happen.

Its an awkward situation to be in but in the end hawthorn made the right decision sticking to there word.

What are your thoughts on this blaisee?
Im really torn which way to feel.
I argued to the moon and back that hill was worth more than a high 2nd on here and he is proving so. I want a more hungry aggressive hawthorn this trade period. No more accepting unders.

 

[Pessimistic]

I think the only people who don't know that Hawthorn are in a rebuild and won't be good for another 3-5 years are a handful of fans.

What I don't understand is why the coaching/football committee hasn't openly stated it, they keep saying things like 'we have a list that is capable of winning a flag'.

Nobody outside of Hawthorn thinks the current Hawthorn list is even a remote prospect of winning a flag in the next 3 years. Even if they got Fyfe (they won't, but let's say it's possible) this year on a million a year, they lose Hodge, Burgoyne, Gibson who are probably all on that combined and Hodge/Burgoyne are still amongst the best players this year.

Add another year onto the age of Smith, Breust, Roughy, Rioli, Birchall, Puopolo, the team is still on the downward trajectory, and will be until well into next year, then they've got a big mountain to climb.

It's quite possible players get better with age btw. If not tell sydney cos buddys got five years to run on his contract

 

[yodellinhank]

Define putrid on a scale of zero to Essendon 2016

We drafted eight players in 2015 by the way

Its past essendon 2016 levels. Not at Ric Sprake levels yet.

 

[Saint]

It's quite possible players get better with age btw. If not tell sydney cos buddys got five years to run on his contract

There's not a club in the competition that would sign Buddy for the next 5 years on the money he'd be on.

More likely Sydney pay part of his salary in offloading him.

If Hawthorn don't trade away one of those guys on long contracts, they're going to have to rely on bringing in free agents, but just like Sydney did with Tippett and Franklin, you have to pay overs for free agents. With Hawthorn's current ladder position unlikely to improve much, they're going to have to pay a lot over. This is where they've probably made a mistake in their recruiting strategy. They would have been assuming they might still be a destination club of choice. But they're currently ranked last of all Victorian clubs, hardly a destination any more.

So basically all they're left with is to offer more cash than their 8 Melbourne rivals who are all above them on the ladder.

 

[deflated]

It's quite possible players get better with age btw. If not tell sydney cos buddys got five years to run on his contract

Buddy can decline from his lofty perch and still be a dominant, game-winning KPF. Players like Stratton and Smith are going to decline from good to mediocre.

 

[Pessimistic]

There's not a club in the competition that would sign Buddy for the next 5 years on the money he'd be on.

More likely Sydney pay part of his salary in offloading him.

If Hawthorn don't trade away one of those guys on long contracts, they're going to have to rely on bringing in free agents, but just like Sydney did with Tippett and Franklin, you have to pay overs for free agents. With Hawthorn's current ladder position unlikely to improve much, they're going to have to pay a lot over. This is where they've probably made a mistake in their recruiting strategy. They would have been assuming they might still be a destination club of choice. But they're currently ranked last of all Victorian clubs, hardly a destination any more.

So basically all they're left with is to offer more cash than their 8 Melbourne rivals who are all above them on the ladder.

Let's play ladder positions for a moment

All but two vic clubs have two wins or less than more than the Hawks. IE all but two vic clubs have a 50% or less win ratio

Long post no real point

 

[Pessimistic]

Buddy can decline from his lofty perch and still be a dominant, game-winning KPF. Players like Stratton and Smith are going to decline from good to mediocre.

You'd be saying that about buddy if he was still a hawk be man enough to admit it

 

[deflated]

You'd be saying that about buddy if he was still a hawk be man enough to admit it

Absolutely. Sam Mitchell is the same, when you're that good you've got a long way to fall before the pack catches up.

 

[Saint]

You'd be saying that about buddy if he was still a hawk be man enough to admit it

Buddy's still equal top of the goalkicking with a game in hand. Every club in the comp would have him this year and next, maybe a 3rd, but it's the 4th and 5th year that you'd be struggling to bank on a return.

AFL players aren't stupid, they can see a side on the decline vs a side on the improve. Hawthorn's percentage is appalling.

 

[Pessimistic]

Buddy's still equal top of the goalkicking with a game in hand. Every club in the comp would have him this year and next, maybe a 3rd, but it's the 4th and 5th year that you'd be struggling to bank on a return.

AFL players aren't stupid, they can see a side on the decline vs a side on the improve. Hawthorn's percentage is appalling.

Sounds like buddy was 'stupid' going to Sydney but it wasn't about success really was it?

Anyway my point was even 'older' players can improve

Quite a lot of Hawks fans thought we might have seen the best of hodge in 2010-11. Many of his peers were declining or retired already

Then 2012-2015 happened

 

[Saint]

Sounds like buddy was 'stupid' going to Sydney but it wasn't about success really was it?

Anyway my point was even 'older' players can improve

Quite a lot of Hawks fans thought we might have seen the best of hodge in 2010-11. Many of his peers were declining or retired already

Then 2012-2015 happened

You're just making up your own history.

Who thought Hodge was finished at 26 years of age? The same fans who now think he's about to have a resurgent golden age?

If you're relying on 28+ yr olds to improve to be your future, you're in real trouble.

 

[SA HAWK]

Hawks need players in the 23-27 age group. Take hodge, Gibson, Burgoyne out of the team and our avg age is 21.

Thats way to young. Drafting 6 18 yr olds this year wont help. But brining in 2 acadamy kids and a FS along with upgrading cousins and getting a FA and a mature age prospect is a better spread of age.

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Which team the one that played Saturday or our best 22?

That figure doesn't sound right at all.