Rumour GFC 2017 Player Trading, Drafting, FA, Rumours, and Wish lists - PT2

[David the Cat]

Who?


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Smith

 

[Boxhead_31]

He wasn’t let go, signed an extension.

Huh?

FREMANTLE back-up ruckmen Zac Clarke and Jonathon Griffin are among five Dockers who have been delisted as the rebuilding club prepares for another active NAB AFL Trade Period.

Full-back Sam Collins, plus rookies Josh Deluca and Matthew Uebergang, also haven't been offered new contracts.

The five players follow retiring defenders Zac Dawson and Garrick Ibbotson out the door.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-06/freo-talls-clarke-and-griffin-among-five-dockers-delisted

 

[Pure_Ownage]

He wasn’t let go, signed an extension.

Freo delisted Collins this week.

 

[Turbocat]

I think we are agreeing aren't we? House, Esava, Gardner are all long long shots. 12 months from being potentially delisted. Isn't that the point of list management to identify the gaping holes on a list and plan for stretch situations. Buzza has shown far more and has earnt the right for more years to develop.

Although we have done it... 2 years is quick to delist a tall. Not all picks work even early ones can fail but I feel Wells tend to work on a value can be found in players needing time and development. Id say House and Gardner have time yet to show prove themselves especially now there will be opportunity.

 

[Cronin]

It's not just about physical dimensions.

Rance was better 6 years ago too.

I'm not saying Kolodjashnij WILL be as good as Rance, I was making a comparison in the two player's sizes when Jake's physical attributes were being questioned as to why he couldn't play as a KPD.

Having said that, with the right development I don't see why he couldn't become a future All-Australian CHB.

 

[Two Planks]

Having said that, with the right development I don't see why he couldn't become a future All-Australian CHB.

I would be happy if he ever became the All Geelong CHB.

 

[catempire]

It's not just about physical dimensions.

Rance was better 6 years ago too.

Rance was fairly maligned six years ago. He came a long way in a short period of time.

 

[Cronin]

I would be happy if he ever became the All Geelong CHB.

They way I look at it and this is just my opinion; Taylor, Henderson and Kolodjashnij all have to play in defence next year with two likely scenarios:

a).
Taylor - FB
Henderson - CHB
Kolodjashnij - 3rd tall

b).
Henderson - FB
Kolodjashnij - CHB
Taylor - 3rd tall

I could see why they would go with scenario A). but personally I like B). Because it stamps Henderson as our best defender and gives him the most responsibility, begins the development of Kolodjashnij as our next CHB and allows Taylor to play as a floating, intercept marking defender in the same mould as a Tom Harley.

I guess another scenario would be to get games into Ryan Gardner but I'd be disappointed if he got games in defence instead of Kolodjashnij.

 

[Turbocat]

As Terry Wallace said "I'll spew up" if I see one more stat that tells punters Watts is elite in any way shape or form

WATCH the actual game instead of all this garbage. He's lazy but his biggest knock is that he never gets more than a foot off the ground for a player that also hates boding up in a contest. He literally never jumps at or into a contest. You don't get hurt when you don't jump. Compare how say a Jake Reiwoldt goes about it.

He was dropped multiple times. Why do people think after a decade players suddenly wake up. We saw Exhibt A with Stanley. A good game here or there but he will NEVER change.

Hawkins also has some mindboggling amount of F50 tackles but bc we watch him every week we all though that is absolute horse dung in terms of locking the ball in. Tom's the master of being last man in when the ball is dead.

Just play Buzza or throw 450K at a Schace. We have seen Jack's ceiling and it's not something that will bridge our gap over the next 24 months.

Why I can relate to some of your comments on Watts..the Schache recommendation is a bit contrary ..id actually say that so far he is a very early tall player pick , just like Watts was , who has exhibited similar traits..a lack competitiveness and finding the bigger bodies a tougher road to hoe than the u18's.. and like Watts is a very good convertor. and good ball in hand. To me , he is probably is close to Watts when he was younger. I presume the appeal is.. get him to our system earlier he may be better long term. Both have more forward pedigree than our young talls but both lack the sort of athletic vigour our late picks guys exude.

The ceiling that Watts has shown , if he could produce it , would be quite good enough for us in a better side. Different player..but just like Ottens..he is an early pick that has spent years in a ordinary side..playing in a better side can see his best football appreciated more.. especially if he does it in big games.


Codicil : My first preference would be to go to the draft this year and next. This time next year 2018 picks will be even more valuable and if we keep cap room available who knows who we may be able to move. I can live with getting Watts or even Schache in as long as we dont touch 2018 for the likes of them.

 

[Cronin]

Why I can relate to some of your comments on Watts..the Schache recommendation is a bit contrary ..id actually say that so far he is a very early tall player pick , just like Watts was , who has exhibited similar traits..a lack competitiveness and finding the bigger bodies a tougher road to hoe than the u18's.. and like Watts is a very good convertor. and good ball in hand. To me , he is probably is close to Watts when he was younger. I presume the appeal is.. get him to our system earlier he may be better long term. Both have more forward pedigree than our young talls but both lack the sort of athletic vigour our late picks guys exude.

The ceiling that Watts has shown , if he could produce it , would be quite good enough for us in a better side. Different player..but just like Ottens..he is an early pick that has spent years in a ordinary side..playing in a better side can see his best football appreciated more.. especially if he does it in big games.


Codicil : My first preference would be to go to the draft this year and next. This time next year 2018 picks will be even more valuable and if we keep cap room available who knows who we may be able to move. I can live with getting Watts or even Schache in as long as we dont touch 2018 for the likes of them.

At the end of the day we still lack a mobile CHF who can take a mark and that's been our problem since 11' so if they think that a Jack Watts could fill that void then I guess go for it.

 

[Turbocat]

A lot of high end stuff in that vid... his best makes one wonder why a club would let him go. I do love the way he converts... he puts pay to the oft used fallacy that you have to kick thru the ball. He doesn't over kick it which is a method I feel is reliable and steady kicking it hard enough to make the distance yet when further out still kicks the ball well.

 

[Turbocat]

At the end of the day we still lack a mobile CHF who can take a mark and that's been our problem since 11' so if they think that a Jack Watts could fill that void then I guess go for it.

Like with most things ..its about cost... and its worth remembering that past performance is not always relevant to future performance. The small forwardline of the last two years will probably get more common... the in vogue "pressure" attribute seems to be even more popular than pure talent.
So putting Watts in our forwardline wold have its attributes..I think we have to ensure we have a couple of extra angry ants .. if fit we have the role covered but we have too often been sucked in , waiting for the perennial injured to have a better run of luck. Some times it just doesn't happen. We cant just role up and hope Linc stays fit in 2018.

 

[Turbocat]

That's definitely one positive attribute that he would bring to the club, no doubt.

Hopefully with Thurlow coming into the 22 and the potential recruitments of Watts and Ablett our foot skills should be much improved for next season.

More importantly though David we need to start playing a couple more guys ahead of the footy so that when these blokes are able to get a hold of it they've actually got some viable options to kick the ball to rather than having to back track and go sideways.

It's no coincidence that earlier on in the season when we were infact playing more numbers ahead of the ball and spreading the field out we were able to score more heavily aswell as allowing Hawk and Menzel to have a bigger influence on games.

Then as the season progressed Scott decided that he wanted to tighten up his team defence and push more numbers up the ground which only made it harder for our forwards to get themselves into dangerous positions. Scott over compensated in this area IMO. The Richmond final in particular sticks out as a game where we simply had no forward structure whatsoever and it just made it way too hard for the team to score with any sort of regularity.

The point I'm making is that we can have all of the best ball users in the world but unless Scott can find the right balance between team defence and team offence it isn't going to count for much at all. Hopefully with better personnel he might be more willing to open the game up a little bit more and give our forwards more of a chance to play closer to goal.

Good post Stan...

 

[Cronin]

Like with most things ..its about cost... and its worth remembering that past performance is not always relevant to future performance. The small forwardline of the last two years will probably get more common... the in vogue "pressure" attribute seems to be even more popular than pure talent.
So putting Watts in our forwardline wold have its attributes..I think we have to ensure we have a couple of extra angry ants .. if fit we have the role covered but we have too often been sucked in , waiting for the perennial injured to have a better run of luck. Some times it just doesn't happen. We cant just role up and hope Linc stays fit in 2018.

I think teams have to play to their strengths; ours is contested ball and quick ball movement, which allows us to score heavily from turnover and makes our forwardline look half competent when there's space to move.

But when we aren't winning contested ball or our ball movement is slow and pathetic then we look like a 2nd rate side.

 

[Turbocat]

West Coast did with Troy Wilson.

There have been several over the years , several backmen like Egan ... not may like Pods and at his age. The way its seemed to just be a perfect alignment need and opportunity . He was only coming down here to set himself up for post footy till he did drills with Scarlett and others and their feed back made us give him a go.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Good post Stan...

Whilst correct, I found his post quite ironic. He's forever critical of Motlop but this is the exact reason why he isn't influencing games like he should be.

Motlop works as hard as anyone but when he gets the ball there's nobody to kick it to further up the field and he often hesitates and becomes indecisive. (I've already tried to explain this to no avail so I find It surprising he's gone ahead and used it now in defense of the team) Motlop plays on instinct and he's at his best when he can run directly towards goal and either use the ball well or create scoring opportunities. Our system and structures have been detrimental to his natural game. Motlop shouldn't be pushing up to the back half all game. He needs to be influencing contests either through the middle or predominantly forward of centre. We all seen throughout the final series how dangerous he can be when he plays on instinct and can use his pace and skill to the sides advantage.

This defense first system and overuse of handball coming forward hasn't just disadvantaged Motlop either. It's also had a negative impact on Hawkins. By the time Hawk marks the ball in the forward line he's too energy sapped to have a reliable shot on goal.

 

[Turbocat]

I think teams have to play to their strengths; ours is contested ball and quick ball movement, which allows us to score heavily from turnover and makes our forwardline look half competent when there's space to move.

But when we aren't winning contested ball or our ball movement is slow and pathetic then we look like a 2nd rate side.

The quickest movement of the ball comes from kicking it rather than leg speed. Legs speed is a great weapon but not many players can out run a kicked ball... so why don't we kick it long more often and why do we mess around with it so much. If you put so many players around the ball to win it , if you play a loose man back ..then once you have gained possession.. you look up and see a lot of empty green. We dont' seem to setup to win 1o1's across the ground ..we setup to maintain possession. Scott seems to place a higher emphasis on stopping the other side scoring than having us score. In our possession they do not score but the cost of that is the speed of advance and the extra burden the guys like hawkins have to carry ..get max treatment and yet poor service from his mids. When he does get good service more often than not has a good day.
So personally its not so much us winning contested ball..its more about us winning the ball when the field still has the players dispersed.. if we get beaten in the middle at centre bounces.. even if we stop the ball in d , our way out of d is usually slow. Its one reason why I like Bews as he can break the lines and take on players and break zones.

 

[catempire]

On the eve of trade week, my ideal (but realistic) list changes over the coming weeks:

In: Watts, Ablett, Lloyd

Out: Mackie (retired), Lonergan (retired), Pick 33 (for Watts), Lang (for Ablett), Pick 51 (for Lloyd), Cowan (delisted), Hayball (delisted)

Keep: Motlop (unlikely, granted), Menzel, 2018 picks

To the draft with picks 20, (Motlop compo if he goes), 70. Target a goal kicker with skills at 20 and good kicking skills with the rest. No key position or rucks.

Open to trading Murdoch and GHS if they want opportunity or if we need list/TPP space and/or delisting Ruggles.

 

[pussygalore]

I can't believe that people are so anti Watts.
IMO way better than Stringer.

 

[Cronin]

The quickest movement of the ball comes from kicking it rather than leg speed. Legs speed is a great weapon but not many players can out run a kicked ball... so why don't we kick it long more often and why do we mess around with it so much. If you put so many players around the ball to win it , if you play a loose man back ..then once you have gained possession.. you look up and see a lot of empty green. We dont' seem to setup to win 1o1's across the ground ..we setup to maintain possession. Scott seems to place a higher emphasis on stopping the other side scoring than having us score. In our possession they do not score but the cost of that is the speed of advance and the extra burden the guys like hawkins have to carry ..get max treatment and yet poor service from his mids. When he does get good service more often than not has a good day.
So personally its not so much us winning contested ball..its more about us winning the ball when the field still has the players dispersed.. if we get beaten in the middle at centre bounces.. even if we stop the ball in d , our way out of d is usually slow. Its one reason why I like Bews as he can break the lines and take on players and break zones.

Agree with all of that.

I think structurally we are too defensive and it's only with some individual brilliance from guys like Dangerfield, Motlop or Cockatoo that are able to break the lines and allow us to score quickly; as soon as we slow the ball down, we rarely score because our forward setup is incoherent and reactive, while our skills delivering the ball inside 50, apart from a couple of players, are a disgrace.

 

[Cezz The Catter]

Rance was fairly maligned six years ago. He came a long way in a short period of time.

For years he was known as the guy involved in that gruesome head bump with Troy Selwood!

 

[Warhorse]

That's definitely one positive attribute that he would bring to the club, no doubt.

Hopefully with Thurlow coming into the 22 and the potential recruitments of Watts and Ablett our foot skills should be much improved for next season.

More importantly though David we need to start playing a couple more guys ahead of the footy so that when these blokes are able to get a hold of it they've actually got some viable options to kick the ball to rather than having to back track and go sideways.

It's no coincidence that earlier on in the season when we were infact playing more numbers ahead of the ball and spreading the field out we were able to score more heavily aswell as allowing Hawk and Menzel to have a bigger influence on games.

Then as the season progressed Scott decided that he wanted to tighten up his team defence and push more numbers up the ground which only made it harder for our forwards to get themselves into dangerous positions. Scott over compensated in this area IMO. The Richmond final in particular sticks out as a game where we simply had no forward structure whatsoever and it just made it way too hard for the team to score with any sort of regularity.

The point I'm making is that we can have all of the best ball users in the world but unless Scott can find the right balance between team defence and team offence it isn't going to count for much at all. Hopefully with better personnel he might be more willing to open the game up a little bit more and give our forwards more of a chance to play closer to goal.

I get what you are saying..

Problem is we have plodders such as menegola and blicavs who are slow and get burnt going the other way.

 

[Two Planks]

On the eve of trade week, my ideal (but realistic) list changes over the coming weeks:

In: Watts, Ablett, Lloyd

Out: Mackie (retired), Lonergan (retired), Pick 33 (for Watts), Lang (for Ablett), Pick 51 (for Lloyd), Cowan (delisted), Hayball (delisted)

Keep: Motlop (unlikely, granted), Menzel, 2018 picks

To the draft with picks 20, (Motlop compo if he goes), 70. Target a goal kicker with skills at 20 and good kicking skills with the rest. No key position or rucks.

Open to trading Murdoch and GHS if they want opportunity or if we need list/TPP space and/or delisting Ruggles.

Unfortunately your theory breaks down due to salary cap restrictions.

 

[Turbocat]

Whilst correct, I found his post quite ironic. He's forever critical of Motlop but this is the exact reason why he isn't influencing games like he should be.

Motlop works as hard as anyone but when he gets the ball there's nobody to kick it to further up the field and he often hesitates and becomes indecisive. (I've already tried to explain this to no avail so I find It surprising he's gone ahead and used it now in defense of the team) Motlop plays on instinct and he's at his best when he can run directly towards goal and either use the ball well or create scoring opportunities. Our system and structures have been detrimental to his natural game. Motlop shouldn't be pushing up to the back half all game. He needs to be influencing contests either through the middle or predominantly forward of centre. We all seen throughout the final series how dangerous he can be when he plays on instinct and can use his pace and skill to the sides advantage.

This defense first system and overuse of handball coming forward hasn't just disadvantaged Motlop either. It's also had a negative impact on Hawkins. By the time Hawk marks the ball in the forward line he's too energy sapped to have a reliable shot on goal.

Did he mention Motlop in that post? If so I must have missed..it. and this is a good post too. I agree with so much in this post.

I know you like Mots.. I have liked Mots work at times when others have not and sometime he has done stuff that has annoyed me when others seem less worried. To me Motlop has been disadvantage by our method or style. He will be a very damaging player in an attacking SA side , especially playing on wider ground. I disagree with your 100% emphasis that all of his departure lies at the feet of football supporters but I certainly agree some people need to keep civil tongues in their heads. One thing to barrack at the ground but some people take it too far and some are more affected by this than others. Of course some people are not made for this public demand.. I doubt Id be good with it..being good at footy doesn't make one automatically a Danger like personality.

On his departure..I think there is plenty of reasons and blame to share around which includes some for him personally ... but our use of him seems to me be a major cause of a lot of resulting commentary. If we played a more attacking style then his strengths would have been displayed more often .. he is a hard runner , poor on the left but in spite of this manage to kick the much needed goal more often than not . He is not really ideal to play rugby.

 

[Turbocat]

Esava has done as much as Buzza in his first year IMO. Its the coming year that counts for him.
If Gardner stays its because the club thinks he is a better player than some one from late in the draft.
House has had injury but has come back well. If he stays it means the Club want to see what he does in 2018.
Ditto Henry.

They could all be delisted this year or next year. Or one or two might break through.
End 2018 the club will know.

In the meantime 2 or 3 more late picks /Rookies will come in and we will repeat.

Sav has enough potential..just needs to get his kicking for goal sorted or all that natural talent will only cause frustraition and waste. The club need to do it now if he is to succeed.