List Mgmt. Should We Add A Mature Age Ruckman To Our List?

[1954]

So is Frampton but imo as a CHF or CHB he's very promising.

I'm on the same page and see Billy as much more of a chance to make it at the higher level in a flexible role as opposed to being the number one ruckman, but that is not to write him off, as has apparently been suggested.

As an example of the need for a genuine back up, you may recall the game against the chooks last season when the Maggies couldn't buy a clearance for most of the first half, and their ruckman, who could be described as a journeyman at best, absolutely dominated.

So I have based my yes vote on what I have actually seen ( and on more than one occasion ), that insurance is required in case of injury to Ryder, and not on something that worked for the tiggers in the gf that may have only been a one off.

 

[bomberclifford]

Rucks
Ryder
Dixon
Frampton
—
Ladhams (2018 too soon)

Pinch-hitters
Westhoff
Watts
—
Howard?

I went with NO.

 

[Adz2332]

i voted NO but at most i would only as a rookie....
but where do you hide him? i want frampton to lead the ruck in the magpies. i want marshall to have free reign in the forward lines.
just sit him in the forward pocket when hes not giving frmapton a rest?

 

[Schulzenfest]

Anybody who lists Dixon as a ruckman in their reasoning is coming at this question from a fundamentally flawed perspective. If the one and only thing a cheap back-up ruckman does for our side is allow us to keep Dixon up forward, then he’s worth every cent.

 

[Us against the rest]

After what went down in 2016 with our rucks, it's yes from me.

 

[Byrons Firen]

Anybody who lists Dixon as a ruckman in their reasoning is coming at this question from a fundamentally flawed perspective. If the one and only thing a cheap back-up ruckman does for our side is allow us to keep Dixon up forward, then he’s worth every cent.

I take your point but as to my bold you'd better talk to Ken about that, since 2014? i've seen our FF on our HB line too often
for it to be an accident and as for 'up forward' that can often be a deserted no-mans land. Still we live in hope that 2018
will see our press maybe not quite so high. Was it Westhoff who had to run 1/2 the length of AO to soccer thru' our
only goal for the half?

 

[Us against the rest]

Imo we have become so reliant on Ryder because of our under performing mid field. The addition of Rocliff will reduce our dependency on our ruckman, as Rocky has good clearance skills. In saying that, I would still like one more ruckman.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I would rookie list Keegan Brooksby. I guess NEAFL standard isn't great but he seem to be able to find the ball regularly at that level and kicks goals playing as a key forward. He could play as a key forward mainly in the sanfl and would add experience and depth in ruck without impeding Frampton's progress. He could even pinch hit as a tall forward/back at AFL level if needed.

I would draft a young monster ruck too.

I admit I'm in the RussellEbertHandball camp of having a strong ruck presence on the list.

 

[Jonts]

So many ifs


If Hinkley didn't pick lobbe when Ryder was out for a full year ?

If lobbe can't get a game here and Carlton prefer lobbe on half a mil to some amateur we will pick up how is that guy gonna get a game here?

If we draft a ruck and we have several injuries , and we don't want to move a kpp to ruck will this ruckman be in good form enough to warrant picking at that time?



I'll give you something that is not a what if


A state league ruck will hinder the development of frampton and ladhams. That is not a what if. That's a certainty. You think we should develop Marshall by playing him at half back? Develop atley by playing him in a forward pocket?


**** it. Maybe we are at risk if Ryder goes down but that risk isn't negated by a state league ruck. That guy isn't going to fill Ryder's shoes whatsoever.

Ryder going down will be about making the best of a bad situation

Way to miss the point. The IFS were only to line up with the situations you previously made

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

So many ifs

If Hinkley didn't pick lobbe when Ryder was out for a full year ?

Are you talking about 2016? Lobbe wasn't much chop but he played the first 5 AFL games got dropped to the SANFL and did his PCL in that game and missed 13 weeks with that knee injury. He played one SANFL game and then played the last 3 AFL games.

 

[bomberclifford]

Anybody who lists Dixon as a ruckman in their reasoning is coming at this question from a fundamentally flawed perspective. If the one and only thing a cheap back-up ruckman does for our side is allow us to keep Dixon up forward, then he’s worth every cent.

Dixon rucks when Ryder is playing.

 

[Willsy10]

I think yes, i'm not sure what the debate is, surely there is room on the list for 1 more ruckman. 11 out and 3 in, of those 11 that have gone out 2 were back up rucks, Lobbe was probably surplus to requirements but wouldn't adding at least 1 replacement make perfect sense? They don't have to play, or hamper the development of Frampton and Ladhams, they just need to be there just in case sh!t hits the fan. And there are no guarantees Ryder can go through another full season without any injuries either.

What's the alternative? Find another Daniel Flynn or Johann Wagner to add to the rookie list instead?

 

[Pappagallo]

Dixon rucks when Ryder is playing.

Only sporadically though. It would be an absolute travesty if we moved Dixon out of the forward line to contest centre bounces as our main ruck if Ryder goes down.

He definitely belongs in the pinch-hitter list.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Keegan Brooksby isn’t even the best DFA ruck available from the Gold Coast, let alone the best DFA ruck available league-wide.

I didn't say take him as a DFA, rookie list only. And really he's a serviceable enough ruckman and if guys like Currie and Spencer are marginally better ruckmen than him is not the point. His main interest for me is he can play other positions so he doesn't impede Frampton's ruck development which will be mainly in the sanfl. You only had to look at how Lobbe was being used last year to see Port need a ruckman who can play other positions and allow Frampton plenty of on ball time.

 

[philthy05]

Are you talking about 2016? Lobbe wasn't much chop but he played the first 5 AFL games got dropped to the SANFL and did his PCL in that game and missed 13 weeks with that knee injury. He played one SANFL game and then played the last 3 AFL games.

Yeah but we've even missed Ryder through suspension haven't we and Hinkley still hasn't picked lobbe.

He ain't playing a state league ruck if Ryder went down so why bother listing one?

Unless the ruck has super potential to become a 1st ruckman which I don't think we are going to find (at least not in a ready made guy more developed than frampton/ladhams

 

[bomberclifford]

Only sporadically though. It would be an absolute travesty if we moved Dixon out of the forward line to contest centre bounces as our main ruck if Ryder goes down.

He definitely belongs in the pinch-hitter list.

I get that, but we're talking about 'what happens if.." worst case scenarios.

IMO Frampton will get games this year and will provide a suitable back up but, if things turn to s**t, we have the bodies to handle our ruck situation if and when needed.

 

[philthy05]

Way to miss the point. The IFS were only to line up with the situations you previously made

Your argument was if we lost our main ruck and if frampton or ladhams weren't ready and if we used one kpp predominantly in the ruck how much does that hurt our side if we can't replace those kpps adequately.

I got the point

I simply pointed out that if you wanna go that far with ifs then why stop ?


As I've said in this thread there isn't an if Ryder goes down scenario that isn't a net loss. It's not possible. The best thing we could do in that scenario is make the best of it.

 

[philthy05]

Way to miss the point. The IFS were only to line up with the situations you previously made

Which part of my statements are you referring to ?


Ryder can't be replaced by a ruckman as good as him?


That's not an if, its fact


That a state league ruck playing in the role we should be playing frampton and ladhams would slow their development ?

That's hardly an if. That is entirely likely.

 

[raptalia]

Yeah but we've even missed Ryder through suspension haven't we and Hinkley still hasn't picked lobbe.

He ain't playing a state league ruck if Ryder went down so why bother listing one?

Unless the ruck has super potential to become a 1st ruckman which I don't think we are going to find (at least not in a ready made guy more developed than frampton/ladhams

Hinkley couldn't pick Lobbe for most of 2016 because he went down with injury. He actually played the first five games was dropped, got injured in the SANFL but Hinkley picked him for the last 3 games when he had recovered. Hinkley dropped him for sure but to say that Hinkley did not pick him when Ryder was suspended is not correct. Lobbe was not picked in 2017 but Ryder played all but two games in 2017.

In 2016 not only did we lose Ryder but Lobbe also went down. What happens if history repeats itself and we lose Ryder and Frampton? There is no Jackson Trengove on the list now. You only have to look at West Coast last year to see how valuable a 'list clogging' Rookie pick can be. When Nathan Vardy was listed no one thought he would get a game but he did and did a competent job.

 

[MutleyDog]

 

[dirty2]

The bloke I want to consider this year is Scott Jones, the 22 year old from East Perth, so he has been training with the WCE guys and is better than Giles but was forced to play 2nd fiddle to him at East perth. He was highly rated as a 17 year old kid, had an AIS-AFL scholarship. Broke his ankle at the start of his U/18 year in 2013 and was ignored in the draft as he plummet down the ranks. Did his shoulder in 2015 and missed a big chunk of that season. He is 204cm and 109kgs so we don't have to feed him and develop his body.

Wouldn't be against a young promising ruckman... if given half a chance could make it.... with a body already developed... as for 26+ year old insurance cover.... no.

 

[DaTBird187]

I'm going with the Ryder plays scenario.

 

[philthy05]

Hinkley couldn't pick Lobbe for most of 2016 because he went down with injury. He actually played the first five games was dropped, got injured in the SANFL but Hinkley picked him for the last 3 games when he had recovered. Hinkley dropped him for sure but to say that Hinkley did not pick him when Ryder was suspended is not correct. Lobbe was not picked in 2017 but Ryder played all but two games in 2017.

In 2016 not only did we lose Ryder but Lobbe also went down. What happens if history repeats itself and we lose Ryder and Frampton? There is no Jackson Trengove on the list now. You only have to look at West Coast last year to see how valuable a 'list clogging' Rookie pick can be. When Nathan Vardy was listed no one thought he would get a game but he did and did a competent job.

I'm not convinced there is a Nathan Vardy lurking for us to pick up as a dfa

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Yeah but we've even missed Ryder through suspension haven't we and Hinkley still hasn't picked lobbe.

He ain't playing a state league ruck if Ryder went down so why bother listing one?

Unless the ruck has super potential to become a 1st ruckman which I don't think we are going to find (at least not in a ready made guy more developed than frampton/ladhams

So you don't buy health insurance you don't buy car insurance you don't but house insurance.

This is about insurance not finding a new #1 ruckman. What's this super potential stuff? Did Ah Chee have super potential? Did Young have super potential? Did Impey have super potentail? Yet we kept picking them and giving them contact after contract.

Its about not being complete and utter f**king idiots like 2014 and 2016 when we were caught out by non thinking list management saying she'll be right we only need 3 rucks on the list and in 2016 it was only 2 who the coach was ready to play in the season when we had a 2 year suspension hanging over the man guys head. We are talking about 1 player in 44 ie 2.27% of the list as it will be some disaster if we pick a ready to go ruck. Now that's marginal . Gain or no gain.

I want a 4th proper ruck ready to go if the cyclone hits the house. If we can find one in the national draft then so be it but he has to be developed enough to be ready if needed in round 1. If he isnt there, use the PSD or rookie draft.

I just don't get the thinking that we can't take out insurance because 1 extra ruck will somehow destroy our list and it's balance.

 

[Andre]

Imo we have become so reliant on Ryder because of our under performing mid field. The addition of Rocliff will reduce our dependency on our ruckman, as Rocky has good clearance skills. In saying that, I would still like one more ruckman.

Yep, our midfield should be at least competitive to a losing ruck. If they aren’t we’re going to be losing games we should win, as even Ryder won’t win his position every game.

Given that an additional back up (beyond Frampton) is insurance for a case where:
1. Ryder is out
2. Frampton is out
3. It’s beyond a couple of games, where we could go with pinch hitters.

We’ve got 4 KPD’s and 3 KPF’s (leaving aside Hoff and Howard going forward). With limited list spots these are ones that worry me more for lack of coverage due to injuries or suspensions.