Training 2017/2018 Pre-season Thread

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Arguably the most underrated position on the football field is tagger. Especially in an attacking side, as it acts to either help offensively by shutting down a talismen or helps to mitigate when the offense is failing.

Certainly throwing a curve ball at the other team and interrupting their balance isn't something we have specialised in. Would be interesting to see us go down this path after backing our system in for so long.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Guns on show....

No wonder Thommo had to leave ... with his tail between his legs

 

[Stiffy_18]

Do we really need a tagging player? Like honestly? We are such an attacking side, again I just don’t like the idea and how it suits us.

Our youngsters have so much more to offer in so many more areas, and yet we are going to plonk this 31 year old on the field.

I’ll happily concede that I was wrong if this all works out, I just really don’t like the idea to begin with.

Really?!

We must have been watching different sides last year! We started taking our game to another level by beating sides that used whip our backside once we implemented a tagging tactic last year. We got beaten by team that we didn't have an adequate tagger for their big body midfielders. Sam Gibson has teh size to play on those players. He is also a tagger that plays both way. Not only will he limit his direct opponent but will also get enough of the football himself to have an offensive impact.

You make him sound like a dud who played well in an average side for a season. Gibson has consistently been the top 10 in North Melbourne's Best and Fairest for his entire AFL career. In that time Roos have played off in prelim finals and Gibson has been one of their most consistent and best performers.

Again, just because you think we shouldn't be doing something doesn't make it right. I personally would have liked to have had the option of a big bodied tagger that we could have played on Dusty Martin on a GF day, Would it have made a difference? Who knows but it sure would have been nice to have an option.

Premiership sides have a certain age and games played profile that we are a club are rightly conscious of given where our best players are in terms of their career.

Sam Gibson is by no means a star but what he is a tough nut who makes positive contributions to his football team. That has been proven throughout his AFL career. He provides some much needed toughness, big body in the midfield and the ability to curtail influence of oppositions best midfielder. Just because people don't agree with the philosophy it doesn't make it any less valuable.

 

[mattymac]

Cannot agree at all with comments that we shouldn't be tagging.

A. We've seen first hand what it does to us when Sloane was hard tagged

B. Some of our best wins came when we finally started tagging, e.g. beating Geelong convincingly twice after ages of being their bitches

 

[azza77]

Really?!

We must have been watching different sides last year! We started taking our game to another level by beating sides that used whip our backside once we implemented a tagging tactic last year. We got beaten by team that we didn't have an adequate tagger for their big body midfielders. Sam Gibson has teh size to play on those players. He is also a tagger that plays both way. Not only will he limit his direct opponent but will also get enough of the football himself to have an offensive impact.

You make him sound like a dud who played well in an average side for a season. Gibson has consistently been the top 10 in North Melbourne's Best and Fairest for his entire AFL career. In that time Roos have played off in prelim finals and Gibson has been one of their most consistent and best performers.

Again, just because you think we shouldn't be doing something doesn't make it right. I personally would have liked to have had the option of a big bodied tagger that we could have played on Dusty Martin on a GF day, Would it have made a difference? Who knows but it sure would have been nice to have an option.

Premiership sides have a certain age and games played profile that we are a club are rightly conscious of given where our best players are in terms of their career.

Sam Gibson is by no means a star but what he is a tough nut who makes positive contributions to his football team. That has been proven throughout his AFL career. He provides some much needed toughness, big body in the midfield and the ability to curtail influence of oppositions best midfielder. Just because people don't agree with the philosophy it doesn't make it any less valuable.

Again, I am not saying that any opinion is wrong or right, you are entitled to it, I just don't agree with the reasoning behind your/other's opinion that he should be in the best 22.

And all this stuff about top 10 in North's BnF, and that they played in prelims etc, I'm sorry but I don't buy into that anywhere near as much. Let's be honest, North were lucky to get as far as they did in those finals. Again, they don't exactly have a star studded line up that provides a lot of competition for the spots do they. They have Ziebell, Higgins and Cunnignton running through the midfield and they are about the only ones of real note.

I don't mind people like Knight tagging because he has other strings to his bow. Admittedly he is a bit small for the real big guys, but at least he contributes in other areas. I just don't see Gibson doing this. He's slow and he's as vanilla as they come, hence why I think his selection in the side purely as a tagger is a waste of a spot and a backwards step.

Imo we should be looking to take our midfield to the next step yet again, and work on how to collectively combat game breakers and momentum swings. Not be recruiting some 31 year old to correct this issue.

Who would Essendon rather select in their side going forward as an example, a Heath Hocking or a Jayden Laverde? That's how I'm looking at it.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Sam Gibson is by no means a star but what he is a tough nut who makes positive contributions to his football team. That has been proven throughout his AFL career. He provides some much needed toughness, big body in the midfield and the ability to curtail influence of oppositions best midfielder. Just because people don't agree with the philosophy it doesn't make it any less valuable.

Every side needs specific role players ......otherwise you end up like a GWS

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Ooohhhh......someone has been working out !

 

[Redleg Crow]

Whilst very much outside the normal scope of drafting, I still think Brad Crouch and Luke Brown belong on that list.

yes good point. I’ll finagle something

 

[DJ75]

Ooohhhh......someone has been working out !

Looks like a football player now, rather than a cricketer playing football. Good to see.

 

[conVINCEd]

You mean the Essendon that crapped their pants in the first week of the finals this year, vs the Crows who finished minor premiers and made the GF?

I'm happy to have Gibson in our squad given his absolute professionalism and toughness.

 

[Ramify]

Again, I am not saying that any opinion is wrong or right, you are entitled to it, I just don't agree with the reasoning behind your/other's opinion that he should be in the best 22.

And all this stuff about top 10 in North's BnF, and that they played in prelims etc, I'm sorry but I don't buy into that anywhere near as much. Let's be honest, North were lucky to get as far as they did in those finals. Again, they don't exactly have a star studded line up that provides a lot of competition for the spots do they. They have Ziebell, Higgins and Cunnignton running through the midfield and they are about the only ones of real note.

I don't mind people like Knight tagging because he has other strings to his bow. Admittedly he is a bit small for the real big guys, but at least he contributes in other areas. I just don't see Gibson doing this. He's slow and he's as vanilla as they come, hence why I think his selection in the side purely as a tagger is a waste of a spot and a backwards step.

Imo we should be looking to take our midfield to the next step yet again, and work on how to collectively combat game breakers and momentum swings. Not be recruiting some 31 year old to correct this issue.

Who would Essendon rather select in their side going forward as an example, a Heath Hocking or a Jayden Laverde? That's how I'm looking at it.

I have a lot of time for your P.O.V mate, but in this instance Im wondering if you have acrually seen much of Gibsons play?
For some reason this guy always finds his way into one of my fantasy sides and so Ive watched him a lot and have come to really appreciate what he is and what he bring even though he continues to disapoint as far as fantasy land gos. No way would I call him vanilla. He is a stayer with grunt but lacks polish. We have plenty of polish we need grunt and by that I mean grunt that lasts longer than a quarter which is this guy to a tee.

We got shown up in the GF because we are all polish and no plan-B (shutdown a dominant mid if needed etc).

His(Gibson)selection to me shows that Pyke has the capacity to identify areas of need along with flexibility and Im predicting along with it,a more dynamic and well rounded gameplan.

No use having an absolute lightning speed attacking gameplan if the instant a Martin, Danger, Gaz or whoever decide to have a field day we have no answer and just sit there pulling our pud whilst backing in plan-A.

I predict Gibson to be a very valuable asset in the next couple of seasons.

 

[Pea Nut]

Ooohhhh......someone has been working out !

Damn, that's impressive. I thought I saw that he was currently on a restricted training plan ?? He looks like he is training more than anyone looking like that.

 

[Pea Nut]

Again, I am not saying that any opinion is wrong or right, you are entitled to it, I just don't agree with the reasoning behind your/other's opinion that he should be in the best 22.

And all this stuff about top 10 in North's BnF, and that they played in prelims etc, I'm sorry but I don't buy into that anywhere near as much. Let's be honest, North were lucky to get as far as they did in those finals. Again, they don't exactly have a star studded line up that provides a lot of competition for the spots do they. They have Ziebell, Higgins and Cunnignton running through the midfield and they are about the only ones of real note.

I don't mind people like Knight tagging because he has other strings to his bow. Admittedly he is a bit small for the real big guys, but at least he contributes in other areas. I just don't see Gibson doing this. He's slow and he's as vanilla as they come, hence why I think his selection in the side purely as a tagger is a waste of a spot and a backwards step.

Imo we should be looking to take our midfield to the next step yet again, and work on how to collectively combat game breakers and momentum swings. Not be recruiting some 31 year old to correct this issue.

Who would Essendon rather select in their side going forward as an example, a Heath Hocking or a Jayden Laverde? That's how I'm looking at it.

I would agree with this assesment if you were describing Clint Jones. Sam Gibson, not so much. I think you might be surprised.

 

[azza77]

I have a lot of time for your P.O.V mate, but in this instance Im wondering if you have acrually seen much of Gibsons play?
For some reason this guy always finds his way into one of my fantasy sides and so Ive watched him a lot and have come to really appreciate what he is and what he bring even though he continues to disapoint as far as fantasy land gos. No way would I call him vanilla. He is a stayer with grunt but lacks polish. We have plenty of polish we need grunt and by that I mean grunt that lasts longer than a quarter which is this guy to a tee.

We got shown up in the GF because we are all polish and no plan-B (shutdown a dominant mid if needed etc).

His(Gibson)selection to me shows that Pyke has the capacity to identify areas of need along with flexibility and Im predicting along with it,a more dynamic and well rounded gameplan.

No use having an absolute lightning speed attacking gameplan if the instant a Martin, Danger, Gaz or whoever decide to have a field day we have no answer and just sit there pulling our pud whilst backing in plan-A.

I predict Gibson to be a very valuable asset in the next couple of seasons.

Fair enough.

I've watched quite a lot of him as I have a North mate and watch as much footy as I can regardless. He just doesn't strike me as someone to be getting excited about bringing into the 22. I know he runs all day, I know he's hard at the contest, but again his use of the ball by foot is extremely average in my eyes, and with the addition of Gibbs I'm not really sure where he fits. If he isn't in the midfield then I don't think he gives us much in other areas of the ground.

I disagree to an extent with the whole "no grunt" notion being thrown around here a bit. Crouch Bros, Sloane, (a fit) Greenwood, add Gibbs with McGovern back, did have Cameron at the time (of the GF). I consider that a pretty decent haul of 'grunt' players. I think in the GF we were more-so overawed than anything. We got smashed in contested possession I know, but I don't think "more grunt" is the key answer to the issues we had that day, we need to be smarter than that. Let's not stray too far from the path here and end up with another Sando like contested possession bullocking team.

If Gibson was 200cm with his skill set and replacing Jenkins, then go for it and throw him in! Atkins is soft as shit, but unfortunately comparing Gibson's kicking and distribution to Atkins' is chalk and cheese, and Atkins is in the team for his outside ability, so you can see my concern there.

I could possibly see him taking a Mackay or Douglas spot even, and I'm open to that idea, but I had other's pencilled. I'd rather see Milera and Gallucci play first, but that's just me.

If we didn't recruit Gibbs also, then despite his limited ability I think I'd be a lot more open to Gibson walking straight in.

 

[kulak]

We can all remember what we want to hear after the event, particularly if our argument requires additional invention to support it

The club did not say all those things at all. It was commented on at the the time, and the contemporaneous accounts (which I recall well) did not include the extra mayo

Nor did the actual comments from Ben Hart

Let me assist.

1. I don’t really remember how Sam Gibson plays, or even what he looks like

2. I know he tagged Sloane that one time, that sounds like a midfield thing

3. everyone knows taggers aren’t good kickers. If they were good kickers they wouldn’t be taggers! And Brodie Smith was a good kicker so Gibson can’t replace him.

4. I am pretty sure someone posted Gibson is going to play midfield and they were pretty confident about it, and everyone who read that post also posted he is going to play midfield, you can’t argue with consensus

Based on the above he is definitely going to play midfield run with roles.

Now a skeptic might think they could actually check whether the club said Gibson will play midfield.

They might think of checking the AFL app heat maps for the last several games in 2017 and discover Gibson got 70% of his possessions in the defensive part of the ground - almost as if he is already playing the small defender / runner role Sanders is so stubbornly alledging we will use him for!

Of course I’m just a group think big footy poster guy and I don’t have time for all that, so I’ll stick to saying Gibson is going to be a run with midfielder.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Updated table with Brad Crouch

No idea how to fit in Luke Brown - as he was actually part of the trade that got us mini draft pick #2, but was not actually a pick we made.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Updated table with Brad Crouch

No idea how to fit in Luke Brown - as he was actually part of the trade that got us mini draft pick #2, but was not actually a pick we made.

View attachment 441023

Dear and O'Brien are surely running out of time - 3 years without a game? And CEY has rather impressively been able to stay on an AFL list for 6 seasons without playing a full season's worth of games...

 

[crows dude]

Dear and O'Brien are surely running out of time - 3 years without a game? And CEY has rather impressively been able to stay on an AFL list for 6 seasons without playing a full season's worth of games...

O’Brien played 2 in 2016. We need to keep him. Sauce only has 3-4 years left

 

[Sanders]

Let me assist.

1. I don’t really remember how Sam Gibson plays, or even what he looks like

2. I know he tagged Sloane that one time, that sounds like a midfield thing

3. everyone knows taggers aren’t good kickers. If they were good kickers they wouldn’t be taggers! And Brodie Smith was a good kicker so Gibson can’t replace him.

4. I am pretty sure someone posted Gibson is going to play midfield and they were pretty confident about it, and everyone who read that post also posted he is going to play midfield, you can’t argue with consensus

Based on the above he is definitely going to play midfield run with roles.

Now a skeptic might think they could actually check whether the club said Gibson will play midfield.

They might think of checking the AFL app heat maps for the last several games in 2017 and discover Gibson got 70% of his possessions in the defensive part of the ground - almost as if he is already playing the small defender / runner role Sanders is so stubbornly alledging we will use him for!

Of course I’m just a group think big footy poster guy and I don’t have time for all that, so I’ll stick to saying Gibson is going to be a run with midfielder.

I see you’re experienced in the workings of the hive mind

 

[kulak]

I see you’re experienced in the workings of the hive mind

That’s because I’m in it mate. I don’t have time to think through every question.

This time while the popular call is Gibson to midfield, I reckon you are correct and we have him in to play that ‘wing back’ role. That’s where has recently played for NM and that’s where the vacancy in our team is.

Another reason - we won’t need Smith’s bullet passes to slice through congestion as much because our midfield is now a strength. We will be quite happy to use Gibson as a run and connector, and fight a land war in midfield if we need to.

 

[GrommoT]

... No idea how to fit in Luke Brown - as he was actually part of the trade that got us mini draft pick #2, but was not actually a pick we made. ..

Adelaide has completed a deal to secure Norwood teenager Luke Brown and also intends to select promising 17-year-old Brad Crouch at Monday’s mini-draft.
The Crows have given Greater Western Sydney the compensation pick offered to Adelaide for losing Phil Davis, plus pick 10 from the 2011 draft, to secure the pair.

What a dog's breakfast the 2011 draft was ... Crows would have had pick #4 if it wasn't for GWS and them being given picks 1,2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15 in the first round [wikipedia] that year. Our otherwise pick #4 ended up as pick 10, which along with Davis we traded to GWS for BC & Luke.

Correction:
Crows got pick 27 (Kerridge) from GC for pick 24, Crows got 24 from Hawks as part of Gunston trade.

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[1.4mb] ... KEEP ANYWAY

 

[DJ75]

Adelaide has completed a deal to secure Norwood teenager Luke Brown and also intends to select promising 17-year-old Brad Crouch at Monday’s mini-draft.
The Crows have given Greater Western Sydney the compensation pick offered to Adelaide for losing Phil Davis, plus pick 10 from the 2011 draft, to secure the pair.

What a dog's breakfast the 2011 draft was ... Crows would have had pick #4 if it wasn't for GWS and them being given picks 1,2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 and 15 in the first round [wikipedia] that year. Our otherwise pick #4 ended up as pick 10, which along with Davis we traded to GWS for BC & Luke. Also our compo pick for losing Davis ended up being pick 26 (Kerridge).

So I think you could say Luke "was" 2011 pick 10.

Further, since the OMeara & Crouch were pre-draft of the 2011-draft, I think we can consider OMeara as pick 1*, Crouch as pick 2* and Brown as pick 12*.

What did GWS end up with out of the picks we gave?

 

[GrommoT]

What did GWS end up with out of the picks we gave?

They used pick 10 from us to draft Liam Sumner ... and they got Phil Davis from us.


Ed. Deleted incorrect (I think) ramblings about the Brouch/Brown for #10 + Davis compo trade. The wikipedia above indicated Adelaide did include their Davis compo pick in the trade trade but doesn't indicate any further on-trade of the compo pick from GWS yet the only end of r1 compo pick in 2011 was actually used by Brisbane.

Ed2. Tried to track further into what went on in the 2011 draft - I was right that is was a dog's breakfast. It looks like Crows did get pick 28 as compo for Davis, which was then traded (with pick 10) to GWS for Brouch/Brown.
GWS subsequently traded pick 28 to Port as part of the Brogan/CCornes trade - I think this aspect of that trade is not mentioned in the wikipedia page - found this reference: As part of the deal, the Eagles also gave their round two selection (pick No.45) to the Power, while Port Adelaide handed over its end-of-round-one priority pick (No.28) and its round three selection (No.49), which came from Greater Western Sydney as part of the deal that took Dean Brogan and Chad Cornes to the Giants). (Port trade for Ebert)
Pix in spoiler is of spreadsheet of trades - reasons for some of the initial compo picks is unclear.

Spoiler: ... Spreadsheet ...

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[DJ75]

They used pick 10 from us to draft Liam Sumner ... and they got Phil Davis from us.

But we gave up a compensation pick PLUS pick 10. Phil was the reason we got the compensation pick.
So who were the two players they got with the compensation pick and pick 10?

Got to love the way the AFL screwed everyone over with the GWS concessions. They steal a player from another club and because of all the specials picks they have, they get the compensation pick back as well! Unbelievable.

 

[GrommoT]

But we ...

See ninja edit


Ok, a chubby ninja.

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