Coaching Staff Eye on our Coaching (Ratten, Lade, Batchelor, Slater sign on)

[austinnn]

So is it the coach or players?

Because if what you state is true. We don't have great players then. Because the real greats grab their teams by the scruff of the neck and drags the team with them.

Great players aren't always great leaders. Especially when they're young. I think many of our questions will be answered by the end of this season.

 

[StCicatriz]

i was a massive knocker of dunstan but even i would concede he improved in the 2nd half of last year

 

[Mowman]

i was a massive knocker of dunstan but even i would concede he improved in the 2nd half of last year

He sure did

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

He sure did

Yes Dunstan sure did improve last year.
And Koby & Armo are playing ahead of him because?

 

[Impatient Saint]

Straight from an umpires mouth.

I just feel angry at the moment towards the Saints with everything we have watched and heard lately. I guess I demand a response from the club. Not just once off but a block of really strong performances starting this weekend .

Stravo is that just this year or longer?

Surely there are players running around for the Saints that have leadership qualities or a past in leadership experience?

From my playing experience teams who are confident and have a solid belief are more likely to communicate. When I was coaching I always believed that a game should have been like a running commentary as supporting your team mates by voice was as important as there actions.

The talk is something that is engendered and encouraged at training. It lifts individuals, gives them self belief and a real team ethos. Hence all the training drills mirror what you expect during games. So to hear a team is silent during games raises major alarm bells. What is being driven on the training track?

It was concerning after the team lost the senior players that there would be a leadership vacuum. Perhaps its about the transition between Roo and his strong leadership style and the current lists lack of confidence?

We are looking for answers but in reality all that has been recently raised leads back to the one role - coaching.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Interesting reading this thread. Not surprisingly opinions are dived on this. A couple of insights from me:

1. I have a good mate I studied with that has worked as a sports psychologist consultant for a variety of clubs and sports from the US college system, English FA and Premier league clubs and is very familiar with the AFL environment. In his role he has one-on-one consultations with managers/coaches.

He’s pretty unequivocal in his opinion that Aussie Rules as a sport is a long way behind the rest of the world tactics-wise, mainly due to isolation, but also due to an old-school mentality on who can coach (he sees the US system as the most advanced on this with many top-line coaches never having played but have superior tactical minds and teaching skills).

It’s one thing going and visiting other codes, seeing how it is done and getting their IP but another thing totally being able to adapt it to Aussie Rules and then teach it to players. Hawthorn, because of Clarkson, has all of the above and they are cleaning up because of it.

It’s not just him though, you can get a Clarkson disciple (Bevo and Hardwick both come from the Clarkson school) to deliver the goods.

2. Sports tactics are like a virus, they constantly mutate and evolve. In sports played around the world, you simply get more people trying to evolve gameplans etc. It’s globalization in a nutshell. In Aussie Rules? We have the main league, then some state leagues and that’s it! No wonder blokes like Clarkson that look to other sports are gaining a competitive advantage over their peers.

I’m a sports junkie and watch Soccer, Ice Hockey and NFL religiously. There are so many tactics from these global sports that you can take if you are willing to learn. When I see our players not be able to get through the most basic flood like Brad Scott’s on the weekend, it’s very alarming and, yes, that is a coaching issue. The players got flustered, lacked composure and creativity to work their way through the most basic of tactics, one we have seen since Rocket Eade started it all those years ago. That they can be tripped up by such a basic tactic says it all. Do you remember when we tried to flood the Hawks a few years back when we were re-building? Didn’t go to well did it, to the tune of 140 points.

When an inferior team tries to flood, we need to win that game every time and the coaches should teach the players exactly how to do it.

I find it interesting that there are a few posters that put our current predicament more at the feet of the players than the coaches. Well, if that’s true, then we are well and truly ****ed. We are in for many more years of pain, Melbourne style. I actually think we have the players but that they are losing faith with the coaching staff and their methods.

They have not being given the tools to take on and beat other teams. They are being taught to “work hard” for sure but they now know that it isn’t enough in a professional sports environment to “work hard.” Such old school tactics, especially when pitched at millennials, are dying out across sports pretty quickly. Pressure needs to be applied intelligently, not in a haphazard manner like it is being done for us now. Millennials will buy in, like Richmond did, if they see a method to the madness.

But with Richo it is all pressure and no structure (like Luke Dunstan pointed out).

If this list gets the right teacher and tactician for this group (and they are out there for sure) I have no doubt everything will turn quickly. If they stay as they are, welcome to our new reality: we will be the new Melbourne. It’s a critical time in our club’s history.

 

[triggering bro]

Interesting reading this thread. Not surprisingly opinions are dived on this. A couple of insights from me:

1. I have a good mate I studied with that has worked as a sports psychologist consultant for a variety of clubs and sports from the US college system, English FA and Premier league clubs and is very familiar with the AFL environment. In his role he has one-on-one consultations with managers/coaches.

He’s pretty unequivocal in his opinion that Aussie Rules as a sport is a long way behind the rest of the world tactics-wise, mainly due to isolation, but also due to an old-school mentality on who can coach (he sees the US system as the most advanced on this with many top-line coaches never having played but have superior tactical minds and teaching skills).

It’s one thing going and visiting other codes, seeing how it is done and getting their IP but another thing totally being able to adapt it to Aussie Rules and then teach it to players. Hawthorn, because of Clarkson, has all of the above and they are cleaning up because of it.

It’s not just him though, you can get a Clarkson disciple (Bevo and Hardwick both come from the Clarkson school) to deliver the goods.

2. Sports tactics are like a virus, they constantly mutate and evolve. In sports played around the world, you simply get more people trying to evolve gameplans etc. It’s globalization in a nutshell. In Aussie Rules? We have the main league, then some state leagues and that’s it! No wonder blokes like Clarkson that look to other sports are gaining a competitive advantage over their peers.

I’m a sports junkie and watch Soccer, Ice Hockey and NFL religiously. There are so many tactics from these global sports that you can take if you are willing to learn. When I see our players not be able to get through the most basic flood like Brad Scott’s on the weekend, it’s very alarming and, yes, that is a coaching issue. The players got flustered, lacked composure and creativity to work their way through the most basic of tactics, one we have seen since Rocket Eade started it all those years ago. That they can be tripped up by such a basic tactic says it all. Do you remember when we tried to flood the Hawks a few years back when we were re-building? Didn’t go to well did it, to the tune of 140 points.

When an inferior team tries to flood, we need to win that game every time and the coaches should teach the players exactly how to do it.

I find it interesting that there are a few posters that put our current predicament more at the feet of the players than the coaches. Well, if that’s true, then we are well and truly ******. We are in for many more years of pain, Melbourne style. I actually think we have the players but that they are losing faith with the coaching staff and their methods.

They have not being given the tools to take on and beat other teams. They are being taught to “work hard” for sure but they now know that it isn’t enough in a professional sports environment to “work hard.” Such old school tactics, especially when pitched at millennials, are dying out across sports pretty quickly. Pressure needs to be applied intelligently, not in a haphazard manner like it is being done for us now. Millennials will buy in, like Richmond did, if they see a method to the madness.

But with Richo it is all pressure and no structure (like Luke Dunstan pointed out).

If this list gets the right teacher and tactician for this group (and they are out there for sure) I have no doubt everything will turn quickly. If they stay as they are, welcome to our new reality: we will be the new Melbourne. It’s a critical time in our club’s history.

Great post - thanks for sharing

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

Interesting reading this thread. Not surprisingly opinions are dived on this. A couple of insights from me:

1. I have a good mate I studied with that has worked as a sports psychologist consultant for a variety of clubs and sports from the US college system, English FA and Premier league clubs and is very familiar with the AFL environment. In his role he has one-on-one consultations with managers/coaches.

He’s pretty unequivocal in his opinion that Aussie Rules as a sport is a long way behind the rest of the world tactics-wise, mainly due to isolation, but also due to an old-school mentality on who can coach (he sees the US system as the most advanced on this with many top-line coaches never having played but have superior tactical minds and teaching skills).

It’s one thing going and visiting other codes, seeing how it is done and getting their IP but another thing totally being able to adapt it to Aussie Rules and then teach it to players. Hawthorn, because of Clarkson, has all of the above and they are cleaning up because of it.

It’s not just him though, you can get a Clarkson disciple (Bevo and Hardwick both come from the Clarkson school) to deliver the goods.

2. Sports tactics are like a virus, they constantly mutate and evolve. In sports played around the world, you simply get more people trying to evolve gameplans etc. It’s globalization in a nutshell. In Aussie Rules? We have the main league, then some state leagues and that’s it! No wonder blokes like Clarkson that look to other sports are gaining a competitive advantage over their peers.

I’m a sports junkie and watch Soccer, Ice Hockey and NFL religiously. There are so many tactics from these global sports that you can take if you are willing to learn. When I see our players not be able to get through the most basic flood like Brad Scott’s on the weekend, it’s very alarming and, yes, that is a coaching issue. The players got flustered, lacked composure and creativity to work their way through the most basic of tactics, one we have seen since Rocket Eade started it all those years ago. That they can be tripped up by such a basic tactic says it all. Do you remember when we tried to flood the Hawks a few years back when we were re-building? Didn’t go to well did it, to the tune of 140 points.

When an inferior team tries to flood, we need to win that game every time and the coaches should teach the players exactly how to do it.

I find it interesting that there are a few posters that put our current predicament more at the feet of the players than the coaches. Well, if that’s true, then we are well and truly ******. We are in for many more years of pain, Melbourne style. I actually think we have the players but that they are losing faith with the coaching staff and their methods.

They have not being given the tools to take on and beat other teams. They are being taught to “work hard” for sure but they now know that it isn’t enough in a professional sports environment to “work hard.” Such old school tactics, especially when pitched at millennials, are dying out across sports pretty quickly. Pressure needs to be applied intelligently, not in a haphazard manner like it is being done for us now. Millennials will buy in, like Richmond did, if they see a method to the madness.

But with Richo it is all pressure and no structure (like Luke Dunstan pointed out).

If this list gets the right teacher and tactician for this group (and they are out there for sure) I have no doubt everything will turn quickly. If they stay as they are, welcome to our new reality: we will be the new Melbourne. It’s a critical time in our club’s history.

Great post Nark. Agree its a pivotal moment in our journey to either success or wasteland

 

[stavro#4]

Stravo is that just this year or longer?

Surely there are players running around for the Saints that have leadership qualities or a past in leadership experience?

From my playing experience teams who are confident and have a solid belief are more likely to communicate. When I was coaching I always believed that a game should have been like a running commentary as supporting your team mates by voice was as important as there actions.

The talk is something that is engendered and encouraged at training. It lifts individuals, gives them self belief and a real team ethos. Hence all the training drills mirror what you expect during games. So to hear a team is silent during games raises major alarm bells. What is being driven on the training track?

It was concerning after the team lost the senior players that there would be a leadership vacuum. Perhaps its about the transition between Roo and his strong leadership style and the current lists lack of confidence?

We are looking for answers but in reality it all that has been recently raised leads back to the one role - coaching.

Apparently only Rooey was overly vocal... Not always encouraging but accountable. Joey at times.

Current group? Apparently they are all mice

 

[StCicatriz]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...r-poor-holiday-spectacle-20180403-p4z7m9.html

NOT GOOD!!!!

 

[stavro#4]

https://amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl...riday-shocker-richardson-20180403-p4z7hm.html

 

[Impatient Saint]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...r-poor-holiday-spectacle-20180403-p4z7m9.html

NOT GOOD!!!!

No surprises and dont blame the AFL with our marquee games record.

 

[Saint Watto]

So to hear a team is silent during games raises major alarm bells. What is being driven on the training track?

I certainly found stavro's comment alarming to say the least............they were a noisy mob at training tonight tho.

 

[triggering bro]

I certainly found stavro's comment alarming to say the least............they were a noisy mob at training tonight tho.

Dunstan out there mate?

 

[Saint Watto]

If this list gets the right teacher and tactician for this group (and they are out there for sure) I have no doubt everything will turn quickly. If they stay as they are, welcome to our new reality: we will be the new Melbourne. It’s a critical time in our club’s history.

Sensational post there Narkles.....a great and fascinating read.

If as you say......it's a coaching issue.......and nothing is done about it....that is a depressing/gut churning prospect.

 

[Saint Watto]

Dunstan out there mate?

Yes he was triggering....kept a close eye on him....all looks good.

 

[Greg1853]

pass it on to who though ?
the guys they should have been passing it on to were Tom Lynch (now at the Crows) Rhys Stanley (now at Geelong) Nick Heyne (not in AFL) Nick Winmar (in the WAFL) Will Johnson (not in AFL) Jamie Cripps (now at WCE) Sam Crocker (not in AFL) Tom Ledger (now in WAFL) Arryn Siposs (not in AFL).... these were the guys who would have near on 10 years under Rooey, Joey, Dempster and Fisher to learn off of also years under BJ, Dal, Lenny, Milne, Kosi.... these guys would be the leaders at the club now but none are here we got in the age demographic in Steven Bruce Carslie & Savage but none of them are natural leaders...

I think this is the crux of our issues. That gaping hole in our list which was never going to be solved in just a couple of years, and why our re-build was never going to be a straight line improvement each year. Whilst in many ways we have been re-building for 5 years, we were still going backwards in certain aspects during the re-build. So, as we started to move up from the bottom a couple of years ago, that void of mature players kept getting bigger and bigger.

The quickest fix is probably just getting another 20-22 rounds per season into the developing players, and hopefully get a free agent or two. We add 464 games of experience this year, and probably lose noone out of our best 22 off our list. I wish there was a different way to do it, but I think this is the only option at this point in time.

 

[George]

https://amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl...riday-shocker-richardson-20180403-p4z7hm.html

 

[austinnn]

Rooey was asked about it and said something along the lines of 'It's one thing to lead by being evrybody's friend. But sometimes you have to draw a line in the ground and demand standards.' I took that as a comment about Geary's style. Maybe he doesn't have that harsh edge to him. You know...the kind of boss nobody is scared of rather than one who when he walks onto the factory floor, everybody works a little harder.

I couldn't agree more with the big Roo there. We need some players who aren't afraid to appear up themselves to assume authority, and with their actions not just empty words.

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...r-poor-holiday-spectacle-20180403-p4z7m9.html

NOT GOOD!!!!

Counting the cost of Fridays match....

Thinking its in the $10M range over the next 3 years.
Memberships, gate takings, sponsorships, FA's the list goes on. Its gotta hurt and we'll lose Good Friday to one of the bigger clubs.

 

[austinnn]

Counting the cost of Fridays match....

Thinking its in the $10M range over the next 3 years.
Memberships, gate takings, sponsorships, FA's the list goes on. Its gotta hurt and we'll lose Good Friday to one of the bigger clubs.

Yep, we picked the worst time to fail, yet again. You'd almost think it was on purpose! I hope Finnis and Summers are furious with Richo and his crew and put a big rocket up the lot of them, make them realise what these occasions mean and representing the club means.

No marquee game in our future sadly, we'll struggle on without. Shot ourselves in the foot there, just like leaving Waverley, just like with Tasmania, just like with Seaford, etc. Another lesson we learned too late.

 

[maanco]

It's actually done the polar opposite. Whole club was so rapt to be back at Moorabbin, when I went down there a couple weeks ago you could sense a shift. Which makes the result on Friday even more baffling. Players had everything at Moorabbin set up for them. They literally had to walk in the door and put their personal belongings in their lockers.

It's definitely no excuse for the shocking performance. Again I reiterate that these are professional footballers. If you get distracted moving lockers maybe the games not for you.

Being a professional Footballer doesn't make moving lockers less distracting, they don't move lockers every week.

I think it could be a factor, but a very minor one at that. There is a lot more at play, i.e. kicking effienciency

 

[ScrappyDo]

Interesting reading this thread. Not surprisingly opinions are dived on this. A couple of insights from me:

1. I have a good mate I studied with that has worked as a sports psychologist consultant for a variety of clubs and sports from the US college system, English FA and Premier league clubs and is very familiar with the AFL environment. In his role he has one-on-one consultations with managers/coaches.

He’s pretty unequivocal in his opinion that Aussie Rules as a sport is a long way behind the rest of the world tactics-wise, mainly due to isolation, but also due to an old-school mentality on who can coach (he sees the US system as the most advanced on this with many top-line coaches never having played but have superior tactical minds and teaching skills).

It’s one thing going and visiting other codes, seeing how it is done and getting their IP but another thing totally being able to adapt it to Aussie Rules and then teach it to players. Hawthorn, because of Clarkson, has all of the above and they are cleaning up because of it.

It’s not just him though, you can get a Clarkson disciple (Bevo and Hardwick both come from the Clarkson school) to deliver the goods.

2. Sports tactics are like a virus, they constantly mutate and evolve. In sports played around the world, you simply get more people trying to evolve gameplans etc. It’s globalization in a nutshell. In Aussie Rules? We have the main league, then some state leagues and that’s it! No wonder blokes like Clarkson that look to other sports are gaining a competitive advantage over their peers.

I’m a sports junkie and watch Soccer, Ice Hockey and NFL religiously. There are so many tactics from these global sports that you can take if you are willing to learn. When I see our players not be able to get through the most basic flood like Brad Scott’s on the weekend, it’s very alarming and, yes, that is a coaching issue. The players got flustered, lacked composure and creativity to work their way through the most basic of tactics, one we have seen since Rocket Eade started it all those years ago. That they can be tripped up by such a basic tactic says it all. Do you remember when we tried to flood the Hawks a few years back when we were re-building? Didn’t go to well did it, to the tune of 140 points.

When an inferior team tries to flood, we need to win that game every time and the coaches should teach the players exactly how to do it.

I find it interesting that there are a few posters that put our current predicament more at the feet of the players than the coaches. Well, if that’s true, then we are well and truly ******. We are in for many more years of pain, Melbourne style. I actually think we have the players but that they are losing faith with the coaching staff and their methods.

They have not being given the tools to take on and beat other teams. They are being taught to “work hard” for sure but they now know that it isn’t enough in a professional sports environment to “work hard.” Such old school tactics, especially when pitched at millennials, are dying out across sports pretty quickly. Pressure needs to be applied intelligently, not in a haphazard manner like it is being done for us now. Millennials will buy in, like Richmond did, if they see a method to the madness.

But with Richo it is all pressure and no structure (like Luke Dunstan pointed out).

If this list gets the right teacher and tactician for this group (and they are out there for sure) I have no doubt everything will turn quickly. If they stay as they are, welcome to our new reality: we will be the new Melbourne. It’s a critical time in our club’s history.

I remember recently, nate brown couldn't hold in his chuckles when asked what Saints footy was in an interview. Could Richo have lost the players already? It wouldnt surprise.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Being a professional Footballer doesn't make moving lockers less distracting, they don't move lockers every week.

I think it could be a factor, but a very minor one at that. There is a lot more at play, i.e. kicking effienciency

Maybe being back at Moorabbin, and back in the epicentre of trendy Bayside coffee outlets, the boys have become so infused with caffeine that they have been unable to sleep, thus leading to a deterioration in skills and a general lethargy.

They may have to try substituting a few Chai Lattes or Hot Chocolates if this trend continues [emoji848]

 

[Saint Watto]

The quickest fix is probably just getting another 20-22 rounds per season into the developing players, and hopefully get a free agent or two. We add 464 games of experience this year, and probably lose noone out of our best 22 off our list. I wish there was a different way to do it, but I think this is the only option at this point in time.

Agree Greg1853..............I too believe this is our only option at this point.

But my monumental worry is if it is our development system that's not doing the job it should be.........and I'm no expert......then this option won't get the right/desired results.

If as many allude to that the problem is the coach with his methods and beliefs........this compounds the development issues and the whole thing is a mighty big mess.

God I hope they know what their doing down there......a little part of me thinks they do.