List Mgmt. 2018 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy

[Colonial]

This certainly makes sense to me. Its a tough conundrum

If im honest im a little concerned we arent going to draft a player who has a 2019 impact. I think one of those top selections needs to fill a role and be ready to go.

Probably because he doesnt act or look like someone who will stick it out.

Think the club is over players who cry for home.

Only reason why I can see us not signing players ready to rock and roll.

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[Teeso]

Anyone know if there are any knocks on Rozee's personality and whether he would be suitable to moving states?

If Carlton go Walsh and GCS go Lukosius and Rankine, wouldnt be against moving picks to maybe do a deal with the Saints and the Suns. If Suns can lose 6 (since they have 2+3) and get 9 with compensation going their way and the Saints lose 4 with compensation but get 6 in return and still getting a King twin, maybe we can get 4 and give up something in return. Really like the way Rozee plays and think his leap, strength and agility make him a very dynamic player which we could use.

If Duursma falls our way at our 2nd pick as well, would be rapt.

If we take Rozee, think him and Bonar would both be looking to make an impact in 2019. Taylor is a gun and if not already in our best 22 will be looking to cement himself there.

 

[Andre the Giant]

This certainly makes sense to me. Its a tough conundrum

If im honest im a little concerned we arent going to draft a player who has a 2019 impact. I think one of those top selections needs to fill a role and be ready to go.

I think this is really valid and I reckon it’s squarely in their thoughts.

Bottom line is we are in the window and have lost 3 impactful and important players from the squad. We also have for the most part been unable to replace these players through trading due to salary cap issues.

It is a conundrum as I look at a guy like Collier-Dawkins and he could be literally anything in a few years but would he even get a game next year? Me thinks not.

Jordan Clark is probably the prototype replacement for Heater and to my eyes looks a very safe choice, but he doesn’t address the lack of speed in the midfield.

Ben King could end up the gun that slips into our lap on draft night...do we seize the opportunity or do we think he will take 2 or 3 years which might be too late??

I am genuinely concerned about our lack of leg speed, we have a lot of hard gatherers but a distinct lack of speed.

Caldwell and Rozee would both be nice but suspect will just be off the board in front of us.

We could really use a Gold Coast curveball to get us a player we need for 19’.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Anyone know if there are any knocks on Rozee's personality and whether he would be suitable to moving states?

If Carlton go Walsh and GCS go Lukosius and Rankine, wouldnt be against moving picks to maybe do a deal with the Saints and the Suns. If Suns can lose 6 (since they have 2+3) and get 9 with compensation going their way and the Saints lose 4 with compensation but get 6 in return and still getting a King twin, maybe we can get 4 and give up something in return. Really like the way Rozee plays and think his leap, strength and agility make him a very dynamic player which we could use.

If we take him, think him and Bonar would both be looking to make an impact in 2019. Taylor is a gun and if not already in our best 22 will be looking to cement himself there.

What I’ve heard is he is one of the most mature kids in the pool and best placed to deal with moving. He would be rolled gold for us! But I doubt he gets passed Crows selection.

 

[Teeso]

What I’ve heard is he is one of the most mature kids in the pool and best placed to deal with moving. He would be rolled gold for us! But I doubt he gets passed Crows selection.

Agreed, wouldnt think he made it past Port at 5 to be honest, especially if the knocks on Smith's character are true dont think Port would touch him. If Rozee were available at 4, would definitely be keen to trade up to St. Kilda's pick 4 if we could organise a shuffle of picks with the Saints and GCS (for their pick 6).

 

[Andre the Giant]

Agreed, wouldnt think he made it past Port at 5 to be honest, especially if the knocks on Smith's character are true dont think Port would touch him. If Rozee were available at 4, would definitely be keen to trade up to St. Kilda's pick 4 if we could organise a shuffle of picks with the Saints and GCS (for their pick 6).

I would trade up for Rozee as well but unfortunately the price is probably too high. He was the best 16yo in the country, this year he had a down patch in the middle of the year and then came good at the end and showed what he could do.

He has that mix of skill and speed and the breakaway pace that all teams covet. In the interviews he conveyed very nicely as a no nonsense low maintenance kid and he has done the same in his media stuff. If I could handpick a player with everything including character it would probably be him or Walsh.

 

[Danny88]

I think this is really valid and I reckon it’s squarely in their thoughts.

Bottom line is we are in the window and have lost 3 impactful and important players from the squad. We also have for the most part been unable to replace these players through trading due to salary cap issues.

It is a conundrum as I look at a guy like Collier-Dawkins and he could be literally anything in a few years but would he even get a game next year? Me thinks not.

Jordan Clark is probably the prototype replacement for Heater and to my eyes looks a very safe choice, but he doesn’t address the lack of speed in the midfield.

Ben King could end up the gun that slips into our lap on draft night...do we seize the opportunity or do we think he will take 2 or 3 years which might be too late??

I am genuinely concerned about our lack of leg speed, we have a lot of hard gatherers but a distinct lack of speed.

Caldwell and Rozee would both be nice but suspect will just be off the board in front of us.

We could really use a Gold Coast curveball to get us a player we need for 19’.

I think you exaggerate the lack of pace. Last year Bonar tested =2nd in the 20 m sprint (2.9 sec), Daniels came 7th (2.95 sec) and shipley came 10th (2.97 sec) at the combine. It think the club is addressing the issue. We already have players like williams and kelly who play through the middle (at times) with good pace. Going back a bit others who get centre bounce time like deboer was a top 10 finish t his combine with a (2.97). Im not sure the list is as slow as you say.

Im not sure its possible to expect the inside guys like hopper/ cogs/ ward to maintain the size they need to compete in and under but also be able to blitz it on the outside as well... those players are rare. I would say those three make up for the lack of pace with decent decision making and use by foot. Shiel had that pace but it was offset by poor disposal and hack kicks forward.

 

[Teeso]

I would trade up for Rozee as well but unfortunately the price is probably too high. He was the best 16yo in the country, this year he had a down patch in the middle of the year and then came good at the end and showed what he could do.

He has that mix of skill and speed and the breakaway pace that all teams covet. In the interviews he conveyed very nicely as a no nonsense low maintenance kid and he has done the same in his media stuff. If I could handpick a player with everything including character it would probably be him or Walsh.

If Rozee available at 4, would a trade with the dogs and saints maybe work?

Saint lose 4 + 67, get 7 + 25 - can still potentially get Ben King or Bailey Smith
Dogs lose 7 + 63, get 9 + GWS 2019 2nd rd - can still get Jordan Clark (the small defender role may need some boosting with Ed Richards potentially looking to move into the midfield)
GWS lose 9 + 25 + 2019 2nd rd, get 4 + 63 + 67

If Briggs lasts beyond 19, depending on where bids fall, then we will have points to match for Briggs and potentially Walker without going over into next year's points.

 

[Andre the Giant]

If Rozee available at 4, would a trade with the dogs and saints maybe work?

Saint lose 4 + 67, get 7 + 25 - can still potentially get Ben King or Bailey Smith
Dogs lose 7 + 63, get 9 + GWS 2019 2nd rd - can still get Jordan Clark (the small defender role may need some boosting with Ed Richards potentially looking to move into the midfield)
GWS lose 9 + 25 + 2019 2nd rd, get 4 + 63 + 67

If Briggs lasts beyond 19, depending on where bids fall, then we will have points to match for Briggs and potentially Walker without going over into next year's points.

If it could happen that would be great! Rozee is a ripper.

 

[Andre the Giant]

I think you exaggerate the lack of pace. Last year Bonar tested =2nd in the 20 m sprint (2.9 sec), Daniels came 7th (2.95 sec) and shipley came 10th (2.97 sec) at the combine. It think the club is addressing the issue. We already have players like williams and kelly who play through the middle (at times) with good pace. Going back a bit others who get centre bounce time like deboer was a top 10 finish t his combine with a (2.97). Im not sure the list is as slow as you say.

Im not sure its possible to expect the inside guys like hopper/ cogs/ ward to maintain the size they need to compete in and under but also be able to blitz it on the outside as well... those players are rare. I would say those three make up for the lack of pace with decent decision making and use by foot. Shiel had that pace but it was offset by poor disposal and hack kicks forward.

Danny there is agility and there is speed. Blokes can run fast overall time in a combine but can they do it in a game?

Bonar to me is a crash and bash type who can throw his weight around and be very disruptive but he is not a speedster that creates separation.

Daniels is quick and can create separation from a defender and can chase like a drovers dog.

Hopper, Taranto, Ward and Perryman are slow, they have other fantastic attributes but speed is not there.

Coniglio and Lids are medium, not slow but not greyhounds and Kelly is more silky and evasive then quick.

Whitfield is very fast, he can create separation and is our most dangerous runner. I’d say Williams, Langdon and Adam Kennedy are our other fast players.

In the finals and through the year we just got smoked at different times. Richmond have exposed us, Collingwood have and Essendon are another team that can cut us up.

Speed is not everything, you have to get the ball and you need the skill to distribute it but with Scully and Shiel going out we do look one paced and I think in need of an injection of pace.

 

[Teeso]

Foxsports phantom draft has us taking Clarke, RCD and Briggs with our first 3 picks. They had Rozee going at 11 (after bids) to Port which I find very hard to believe. Adelaide would not take Chayce Jones ahead of Rozee and if Rozee were available at 9, would see us jumping at the opportunity. With that being said, if he does slip out of top 5, would try to work out a trade with GCS to get their pick 6 to beat Adelaide to him. RCD is a good prospect with a good ceiling but could see us going for Clarke/Duursma with our second instead since I can see RCD potentially sliding to our 3rd pick if Briggs isnt bid on so early.

 

[Danny88]

Foxsports phantom draft has us taking Clarke, RCD and Briggs with our first 3 picks. They had Rozee going at 11 (after bids) to Port which I find very hard to believe. Adelaide would not take Chayce Jones ahead of Rozee and if Rozee were available at 9, would see us jumping at the opportunity. With that being said, if he does slip out of top 5, would try to work out a trade with GCS to get their pick 6 to beat Adelaide to him. RCD is a good prospect with a good ceiling but could see us going for Clarke/Duursma with our second instead since I can see RCD potentially sliding to our 3rd pick if Briggs isnt bid on so early.

You speak of dream and fantasy and I love it

Hope you are right. Rozee would be a premium @9

 

[Danny88]

Danny there is agility and there is speed. Blokes can run fast overall time in a combine but can they do it in a game?

Bonar to me is a crash and bash type who can throw his weight around and be very disruptive but he is not a speedster that creates separation.

Daniels is quick and can create separation from a defender and can chase like a drovers dog.

Hopper, Taranto, Ward and Perryman are slow, they have other fantastic attributes but speed is not there.

Coniglio and Lids are medium, not slow but not greyhounds and Kelly is more silky and evasive then quick.

Whitfield is very fast, he can create separation and is our most dangerous runner. I’d say Williams, Langdon and Adam Kennedy are our other fast players.

In the finals and through the year we just got smoked at different times. Richmond have exposed us, Collingwood have and Essendon are another team that can cut us up.

Speed is not everything, you have to get the ball and you need the skill to distribute it but with Scully and Shiel going out we do look one paced and I think in need of an injection of pace.

Gee ur a stubborn old bugger aren’t you? My point was merely we addressed the deficiency you pointed out last year. FYI bonar is the next (better) shiel. U see him as crash and bash but he was also top 10 for the agility test and won the vertical jump. The kid has all the attributes to be a superstar

 

[Andre the Giant]

Gee ur a stubborn old bugger aren’t you? My point was merely we addressed the deficiency you pointed out last year. FYI bonar is the next (better) shiel. U see him as crash and bash but he was also top 10 for the agility test and won the vertical jump. The kid has all the attributes to be a superstar

I’m not stubborn it’s just a different view.

How could we address the problem when we lost Shiel and Scully after we recruited last years kids.

I really like Bonar but this year he played primarily up forward where he showed excellent contested marking ability and is a strong physically imposing type.

In the tapes of him I remember he showed nice ability in contested situations to crack in and get the ball, he has good speed especially when he gets going but it’s not his weapon.

When you lose two of your fastest players and you are already not a quick team it leaves a deficiency.

I’m confident Caruso and Co are weighing that factor heavily in their thoughts this year.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Logically losing Scully, sad though it is, cant impact relative to 2018, because he played one game this year.

Shiel is a loss but I think Taranto will play more midfield time and I expect he'll seize the opportunity.

I do think this "speed" thing ( defined as no meaning of the term I've ever seen before, where you ignore data and go with "feelings" ) is really a wish for the future that everyone predicted after 2015.

We haven't relied on running the ball and legspeed through the corridor as much since 2015, and that's typical of developing teams. The Bombers were great to watch last year, but few things are more predictable that they'll become less risk taking to achieve more consistent results.

As for outside run we were hit badly there last year. It seems likely Tomlinson can concentrate more on that aspect next year. Taranto and Kennedy will be big contributors in my view.

WRT simple legspeed, William's back is a real positive either in pushing upfield himself, or freeing Whitfield from the back 7.

Langdon was starting to achieve surprising figures in distance covered and in speed last year. I expect he will run through the midfield more next year, and hopefully Daniels is training this off season to develop a bigger tank and midfield skills as well.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Only people without a clue can not understand the difference between speed and agility.

There are people that over 100 metres can run a fast overall time but in situations where agility is required do not have the fast twitch and ability to move fast and cause separation. Normal people understand this, dungeon dwellers do not.

Only somebody without a sense of the game would think losing two of your fastest runners who are both mainstays of the team when fit and well would not effect output and overall speed.

Most people judge the success of a team by Premierships won. A season where a Premiership is not won may be beneficial for development but is ultimately a failure if you don’t win your last game.

Last time I checked we have lost every last game of the season we have played in. Until we win that last game we need to look to improve.

But everything is fine, we have the speed, Taranto is going to run in the Stawell Gift, Perryman is anchoring the 100m in Tokyo...we have a veritable fleet of greyhounds which will dazzle in 19’.

 

[sydney_gws]

Foxsports phantom draft has us taking Clarke, RCD and Briggs with our first 3 picks. They had Rozee going at 11 (after bids) to Port which I find very hard to believe. Adelaide would not take Chayce Jones ahead of Rozee and if Rozee were available at 9, would see us jumping at the opportunity. With that being said, if he does slip out of top 5, would try to work out a trade with GCS to get their pick 6 to beat Adelaide to him. RCD is a good prospect with a good ceiling but could see us going for Clarke/Duursma with our second instead since I can see RCD potentially sliding to our 3rd pick if Briggs isnt bid on so early.

Maybe we can trade 9,19 for 6 and 29 With gold coast. Gives us 6,11,25,29, the bid for Shipley might even come later as a result.

 

[Teeso]

Maybe we can trade 9,19 for 6 and 29 With gold coast. Gives us 6,11,25,29, the bid for Shipley might even come later as a result.

The only realistic player I would trade to 6 for would be Rozee. Not sure if our club has interviewed him but seemingly great character and has both a good current level of production as well as a very high ceiling. Would need lots of things to go right for that to happen - like GCS, Saints and Port to all pass on him with prior picks. Would need Walsh to Carlton, Lukosius and Rankine to GCS, M.King to Saints and Port to somehow forget about Rozee. But if available, would definitely be open to that suggestion. Might even consider packaging 25 + 29 for an earlier pick to ensure we can squeeze in another top end talent before Briggs. Ideally the pick needs to be before pick 16 from Adelaide since they are the ones seemingly showing interest and wanting to force us to match an earlier bid knowing we need another developing ruck. Maybe with Freo - 25 + 29 for 14 + 43 seeing as Hill is looking likely to fall out of top 20, so still gives them options on the board with potentially picks 25, 29 and 31. Gives us valuable points to match the Briggs bids later. Also Geelong may be an option if they want to split 12 + 51 into 25 + 29 seeing as their next pick is at 50. Really depends on who clubs like Geelong and Fremantle identify as needs since the guys from 10-30 are quite even and could be available at later picks.

 

[Danny88]

Only people without a clue can not understand the difference between speed and agility.

There are people that over 100 metres can run a fast overall time but in situations where agility is required do not have the fast twitch and ability to move fast and cause separation. Normal people understand this, dungeon dwellers do not.

Only somebody without a sense of the game would think losing two of your fastest runners who are both mainstays of the team when fit and well would not effect output and overall speed.

Most people judge the success of a team by Premierships won. A season where a Premiership is not won may be beneficial for development but is ultimately a failure if you don’t win your last game.

Last time I checked we have lost every last game of the season we have played in. Until we win that last game we need to look to improve.

But everything is fine, we have the speed, Taranto is going to run in the Stawell Gift, Perryman is anchoring the 100m in Tokyo...we have a veritable fleet of greyhounds which will dazzle in 19’.

It was your original post about a lack of speed that started the whole thing! You literally said he word speed 3 times! I address the SPEED point and now it’s agility!

 

[Andre the Giant]

It was your original post about a lack of speed that started the whole thing! You literally said he word speed 3 times! I address the SPEED point and now it’s agility!

Well let’s bring this to a close because I think in footy it’s agility which is most relevant. We need an injection of this, even if Taranto and Perryman step up next year which I suspect they will we need some more agility in the joint. If we don’t we will get mugged by the quick teams.

Hopefully this also pacifies dungeon boy.

 

[Giant Strides]

So, Andre the Giant, what are your thoughts on likely/preferred players? I know earlier you said you didn't want to focus on individuals, but throughout the last few pages you've nominated a few you'd like but perhaps we won't or shouldn't get (Rozee, but likely not there at our pick; Clark, but not quick; RCD, but not a ready-to-go player) and one you don't (Hill). I follow most of your thoughts - you earlier said speed isn't everything but it is an important factor - the agility vs combine speed results, but I'm interested in how that all shakes out when you also want to think about a ready-to-go-in-2019 player?

For mine, we should go best talent at the earlier picks (with speed/agility an important element in the choice); it seems likely now that our third or fourth pick is going to have to match for Keiran Briggs, so #52 would become the ready-made player by choosing a mature type, if we think that's important.

 

[Andre the Giant]

So, Andre the Giant, what are your thoughts on likely/preferred players? I know earlier you said you didn't want to focus on individuals, but throughout the last few pages you've nominated a few you'd like but perhaps we won't or shouldn't get (Rozee, but likely not there at our pick; Clark, but not quick; RCD, but not a ready-to-go player) and one you don't (Hill). I follow most of your thoughts - you earlier said speed isn't everything but it is an important factor - the agility vs combine speed results, but I'm interested in how that all shakes out when you also want to think about a ready-to-go-in-2019 player?

For mine, we should go best talent at the earlier picks (with speed/agility an important element in the choice); it seems likely now that our third or fourth pick is going to have to match for Keiran Briggs, so #52 would become the ready-made player by choosing a mature type, if we think that's important.

I think if available I would take Rozee (if slides) if he was there, next I would take Caldwell as both fit the profile of agile mids that can also play other utility positions.

If both of them are gone then I think we revert to best available with the first choice which is probably Clark. He is not express quick but he really does look like the perfect successor to Heater. The other best available option might be Ben King. With Lobb gone and Patton with a massive query perhaps that’s not a bad option??

Apparently we are heavily into Chayce Jones who I am not at all familiar with (vying with Crows to pick him). If we like him and Adelaide like him then the kid is probably a gun.

If we did go with one of those players I think the next two picks could be more focussed on agility.

I quite like Xavier Duursma who has good dash and X factor. I think he fits a need and should be there at our 2nd pick. I think he is polished enough to play next year if he has a good off season. If not Duursma maybe Stocker who looks really professional and I think of all the kids has the least go home factor.

For the third pick I quite like either Curtis Taylor or Ned McHenry. I think we will need Taranto to take a midfield role next year as we have lost Shiel so a smart kid that can go forward and be part of a mosquito fleet appeals. Understand we have Daniels and Langdon there so perhaps it is one too many but by gee you almost can’t have enough of those busy players, they just make the forward line more unpredictable.

For that mid 20’s pick im hoping we don’t have to match for Briggs but if we do we take him. If not it’s the pick we can take a punt on so I’d go Sydney Stack. He had some personal issues this year which is a red flag but talent wise he is sublime and would really be a point of difference.

From memory both you and I liked Jaidyn Stephenson as best pick last year. That would have worked out pretty good if he lasted.

What are your thoughts for this year’s draft??

 

[Giant Strides]

Thanks Andre. I think it's a case of there being plenty of options, depending on which factors you prioritise. Then add in the non-talent factors around go-home factor & ready-to-play just to further confuse matters! Ultimately, it will be up to Adrian Caruso and his team to choose correctly.

I too would like Rozee, but don't expect him to still be there. Similarly, I was keen on Smith but have cooled with some of the commentary around his desire not to leave Victoria. Clark and Duursma are high on my list, but they are not in the quickest & most agile but skilled and willing. I'd be very keen to use a later pick on Xavier O'Halloran. Although he's a Metro boy, he shows strong willingness on the field and can play both inside & outside with some speed and agility, with leadership ability too. He could be a player with strong upside. I think that some of those kids can play next year, but we also have Daniels, Bonar and Shipley from last year (& Cumming from before that) poised to get more first grade time.

But there's plenty of other choices that people can justify.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Thanks Andre. I think it's a case of there being plenty of options, depending on which factors you prioritise. Then add in the non-talent factors around go-home factor & ready-to-play just to further confuse matters! Ultimately, it will be up to Adrian Caruso and his team to choose correctly.

I too would like Rozee, but don't expect him to still be there. Similarly, I was keen on Smith but have cooled with some of the commentary around his desire not to leave Victoria. Clark and Duursma are high on my list, but they are not in the quickest & most agile but skilled and willing. I'd be very keen to use a later pick on Xavier O'Halloran. Although he's a Metro boy, he shows strong willingness on the field and can play both inside & outside with some speed and agility, with leadership ability too. He could be a player with strong upside. I think that some of those kids can play next year, but we also have Daniels, Bonar and Shipley from last year (& Cumming from before that) poised to get more first grade time.

But there's plenty of other choices that people can justify.

I find the whole thing fascinating. Ultimately we are all just having a guess but it’s really fun watching them come through some of them fulfilling expectations and others going the other way.

The best part about it is it gives all fans hope and hope is one of the greatest things in sport! I’m sure Adrian and Emma will do a great job.

 

[fridgeman]

My personal ratings for the players that the club may look at in order and taking into account the current picks the club has:
Caldwell Maybe gone
Duursma
Clark
Jones
O’Halloran
Stocker
RCD
I see higher risk with RCD and I think he could be an injury risk but it is just my personal opinion and I could be wrong but we won’t know for several years yet
Depending on how the draft goes for #25 I would look at Sturt or Taylor, I think the greater need is the midfield depth and I see these players as more risky picks and with Bonar on the list he plays that role as a medium forward and pinch hits in the midfield. Although McHenry is a talent I don’t see where he would fit in the list as a small forward with Langdon/Daniels on the list already. The other player mentioned often is Butters and I see him like Cumming as a lightweight undersized outside player that will take 2/3 years before they are ready to play senior football
It will be interesting to see where Ben King goes as he may around at the clubs picks but I don’t think the club will go near him and he could slip to the Cats or Crows if Port don’t pick him up