Politics Hypocrisy of The Right.

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EasternTiger said:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

And no, we will not be playing the 'list how they differ' game. You will not be allowed to deflect and obfuscate the issue here. I am aware of your mind games, and I am not easily intimidated.

I was talking about how Lefties resemble the NAZIS:

Indoctrination - CHECK

Group think - CHECK

Clearly identified enemy of the people (privileged white males) - CHECK

Dehumanize opponents - CHECK

Punishment for speaking against the 'movement' - CHECK

Ratcheting up of aggressive rhetoric - CHECK

Burning and toppling of monuments and artifacts important to the enemy - CHECK

We always said we should have stopped Hitler at Munich. Can we stop this movement before it's too late? I do not have an answer to that. :(
Click to expand...
Well, if you applied that list to US Republicans they would all check it off. Maybe not the statues, but heh, we can replace those with supporting police murders, so heh.
 
EasternTiger said:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

And no, we will not be playing the 'list how they differ' game. You will not be allowed to deflect and obfuscate the issue here. I am aware of your mind games, and I am not easily intimidated.

I was talking about how Lefties resemble the NAZIS:

Indoctrination - CHECK

Group think - CHECK

Clearly identified enemy of the people (privileged white males) - CHECK

Dehumanize opponents - CHECK

Punishment for speaking against the 'movement' - CHECK

Ratcheting up of aggressive rhetoric - CHECK

Burning and toppling of monuments and artifacts important to the enemy - CHECK

We always said we should have stopped Hitler at Munich. Can we stop this movement before it's too late? I do not have an answer to that. :(
Click to expand...
Once upon a time this would have seemed an absurd notion, but now not so much.

However, I DO think that's it not all of the left. I think there's still plenty of sane lefties, especially center-lefts, but there's (what you describe) an increasing number of what I've seen called the New Left. Probably the same thing as the radical left in actuality but maybe the difference is the New Left actually does move ever closer to fascism.

My feeling is social media and the perennial outrage culture is driving it. People log on, get outraged, get into a fight, log off feeling angry at the world. Repeat. It's not healthy.

What ever happened to a genuine calm discourse.
 

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T2B_ said:
Once upon a time this would have seemed an absurd notion, but now not so much.

However, I DO think that's it not all of the left. I think there's still plenty of sane lefties, especially center-lefts, but there's (what you describe) an increasing number of what I've seen called the New Left. Probably the same thing as the radical left in actuality but maybe the difference is the New Left actually does move ever closer to fascism.

My feeling is social media and the perennial outrage culture is driving it. People log on, get outraged, get into a fight, log off feeling angry at the world. Repeat. It's not healthy.

What ever happened to a genuine calm discourse.
Click to expand...

Good post.

There's no chance of calm rational discourse with the Lefties. They will deconstruct and put together a new you until even you think you're evil. They will tell you what they think you mean, and then you're stuck with the label they give you. It's insidious.

We can talk about how we got here: 'the long march through the institutions', the internet, Twitter, Evergreen State etc. The most concerning thing if you listen carefully is they are starting to talk revenge for past injustice.

We all thought they just wanted to get rid of Trump and use pronouns like Pixiekin, and then they will eventually quieten down and go back to normal programming.

No. They've made it clear that is only the beginning. In the space of a year they have gone from arguing about the positives of Unisex toilets to burning down cities and shooting mothers in the street for daring to say "All Lives Matter."

It's very concerning.

Hitler was resentful of the Treaty of Versailles and blamed it for his country's woes, then sought revenge against the jews.

Luffties have a whole list of past and present injustices that must also be avenged.

Slavery
Racism
Trump
Police
Karens

And guess who the bad guy is in every one of those? You guessed it! The privileged white male/any white male.

Given the right set of conditions - Left wing party in power, Charismatic leadership, constant media propaganda - things could get very ugly for the average white Joe just going about his business.
 
I think it has more to a narrowing of media sources people are consuming, and more group think. Plus, 30 years of limited wage growth and poorer and poorer government support.

On T2B_ 's comments, I'm not sure what basis there is to say any material part of the left is embracing fascism. Sure, there are some extreme groups who have done some violent stuff, but who are the broad left groups, or coalitions, that are acting to promote fascism? What are some examples? What divisive or authoritarian platforms did Obama, Hillary or Biden run/are running on?

Whereas on the right, in the US, you have the main party and its head refusing to hold trials and call witnesses, firing prosecutors who look at the wrong person, pardoning individuals who have been convicted because they're friends and allies, refusing to allow members of government to testify, persecuting whistleblowers, breaking hundreds of years of democratic tradition to strengthen their hold on the courts, running on platforms that are deliberately divisive, attacking the media, stopping media briefings, using violence against protesters, encouraging police violence, supporting arming the police further, pushing for voter disenfranchisement, strip American citizens of voting rights, actively stripping specific groups of rights, allowing discrimination for their followers, and pushing for stronger surveillance laws. This is the main party doing these things, not fringe groups.

And let's remember, which side of politics has been the main source of US domestic terrorism. It's not the left.

So on one side you've got some groups who are a bit violent and some social media pile ons, while on the other you have the main party actively working to reduce democracy so that they can stay in power. Yet its the left who are fascist?

The real irony here is that African Americans are majority socially conservative. They're actually a natural fit for many of the conservative ideals. But the Republican party's southern strategy effectively forced them to choose between Democrats and a party that targeted them. Which means when they now protest at a raft of injustices, it's all lumped as "the left".
 
EasternTiger said:
Good post.

There's no chance of calm rational discourse with the Lefties. They will deconstruct and put together a new you until even you think you're evil. They will tell you what they think you mean, and then you're stuck with the label they give you. It's insidious.

We can talk about how we got here: 'the long march through the institutions', the internet, Twitter, Evergreen State etc. The most concerning thing if you listen carefully is they are starting to talk revenge for past injustice.

We all thought they just wanted to get rid of Trump and use pronouns like Pixiekin, and then they will eventually quieten down and go back to normal programming.

No. They've made it clear that is only the beginning. In the space of a year they have gone from arguing about the positives of Unisex toilets to burning down cities and shooting mothers in the street for daring to say "All Lives Matter."

It's very concerning.

Hitler was resentful of the Treaty of Versailles and blamed it for his country's woes, then sought revenge against the jews.

Luffties have a whole list of past and present injustices that must also be avenged.

Slavery
Racism
Trump
Police
Karens

And guess who the bad guy is in every one of those? You guessed it! The privileged white male/any white male.

Given the right set of conditions - Left wing party in power, Charismatic leadership, constant media propaganda - things could get very ugly for the average white Joe just going about his business.
Click to expand...
That's one hell of a strawman you've got going there.
 
Ants said:
Whereas on the right, in the US, you have the main party and its head refusing to hold trials and call witnesses, firing prosecutors who look at the wrong person, pardoning individuals who have been convicted because they're friends and allies, refusing to allow members of government to testify, persecuting whistleblowers, breaking hundreds of years of democratic tradition to strengthen their hold on the courts, running on platforms that are deliberately divisive, attacking the media, stopping media briefings, using violence against protesters, encouraging police violence, supporting arming the police further, pushing for voter disenfranchisement, strip American citizens of voting rights, actively stripping specific groups of rights, allowing discrimination for their followers, and pushing for stronger surveillance laws. This is the main party doing these things, not fringe groups.
Click to expand...

Sure, but to be honest my interest isn't really in the highest level of politics in the US. US politics has been a joke for years and god knows what's going to eventuate there. I usually observe the whole thing as a circus, as many probably do.

I'm more interested and fascinated in the way that people, everywhere, are reacting and behaving, especially online. The "you're either with us and all we believe, or your nothing" mentality, the justified censorships, justified violence, cancel culture etc etc previously mentioned in this thread all feels a little too close to, at least, heading towards something like fascism. This isn't to say those on the left are deliberately embracing fascism, that would seem absurd, but I think it's the result of a runaway effect of tactics and groupthink they are embracing.

I'm sure it would debated to the cows come home whether labeling it fascism is totally correct but my hope would be when people like that are faced with that label, maybe they will have a hard look at everything they are doing or advocating for and perhaps put the handbrake on some things before it all goes too far. For the record I don't pidgeon hole myself into being in one camp or the other, I've always swung a bit depending on the issues before me. I used to be and voted left some years ago, then was usually probably considered centre-left or centre-right depending on the issue, then when the insanity of recent times took off no doubt some of my views would be labelled absolutely right-wing. But I call it as I see it and I'm not sure why that's seen as a bad thing. I've seen people abused online for not being hard-line one way or the other and that's mind-boggling to me.

I think it has more to a narrowing of media sources people are consuming, and more group think.
Click to expand...
Yeah there's certainly a lot of truth to that part I reckon.

Somewhat related, it's why I also think people should embrace having their own domain and websites/blog (easy enough nowadays for even non-techy people to do) where they post their thoughts to first, and then aggregate them to their chosen media platforms, combined with a healthy dose of getting away from the keyboard and experiencing nature once in a while. The first one is because it encourages people to take back their own content and be in full control of it. If something gets censored on a particular platform, at least your original content still exists and people can follow you at the source if they wish. Hopefully it might also encourage independent thought and expanding on their sources for news media but that might be hoping for too much.
And the latter point of nature is simply to get away from the internet just long enough to detox from the online outrage which is contagious. Probably sounds hokey pokey to some but I don't think it's an unreasonable idea.

Anyway that's probably getting quite away from the point of the thread but that's my small bit of mind spew for the afternoon.
 
T2B_ said:
Sure, but to be honest my interest isn't really in the highest level of politics in the US. US politics has been a joke for years and god knows what's going to eventuate there. I usually observe the whole thing as a circus, as many probably do.

I'm more interested and fascinated in the way that people, everywhere, are reacting and behaving, especially online. The "you're either with us and all we believe, or your nothing" mentality, the justified censorships, justified violence, cancel culture etc etc previously mentioned in this thread all feels a little too close to, at least, heading towards something like fascism. This isn't to say those on the left are deliberately embracing fascism, that would seem absurd, but I think it's the result of a runaway effect of tactics and groupthink they are embracing.

I'm sure it would debated to the cows come home whether labeling it fascism is totally correct but my hope would be when people like that are faced with that label, maybe they will have a hard look at everything they are doing or advocating for and perhaps put the handbrake on some things before it all goes too far. For the record I don't pidgeon hole myself into being in one camp or the other, I've always swung a bit depending on the issues before me. I used to be and voted left some years ago, then was usually probably considered centre-left or centre-right depending on the issue, then when the insanity of recent times took off no doubt some of my views would be labelled absolutely right-wing. But I call it as I see it and I'm not sure why that's seen as a bad thing. I've seen people abused online for not being hard-line one way or the other and that's mind-boggling to me.


Yeah there's certainly a lot of truth to that part I reckon.

Somewhat related, it's why I also think people should embrace having their own domain and websites/blog (easy enough nowadays for even non-techy people to do) where they post their thoughts to first, and then aggregate them to their chosen media platforms, combined with a healthy dose of getting away from the keyboard and experiencing nature once in a while. The first one is because it encourages people to take back their own content and be in full control of it. If something gets censored on a particular platform, at least your original content still exists and people can follow you at the source if they wish. Hopefully it might also encourage independent thought and expanding on their sources for news media but that might be hoping for too much.
And the latter point of nature is simply to get away from the internet just long enough to detox from the online outrage which is contagious. Probably sounds hokey pokey to some but I don't think it's an unreasonable idea.

Anyway that's probably getting quite away from the point of the thread but that's my small bit of mind spew for the afternoon.
Click to expand...
There's also what I'd call deliberate misrepresentation by both sides of opposition views and both sides trying to lay claim to the political centre.

This is a thought provoking post, and it's clear you've put an amount of time into getting to this viewpoint, so it'd be a disservice to you to just reject what you've said at face value. However, in a lot of ways this reads like you've watched some Joe Rogan or listened to Sam Harris - or Jordan Peterson - and have accepted prima facie their arguments about 'the left'; something that is easy to do without due exposure. Part of the problem is that there is a terrible amount of conflation between the Left - which is a school of thought governing distribution, economics and organisation - and social progressivism - which governs identity, attitudes towards change, and interrelation between individuals and groups. This is done very frequently to smear the Left - as though they're one titanic ubiquitous blob, without different reasons or attitudes towards things - with progressivism.

There's also the fact that Fascism is quite a specific thing, and there's far more to it that mere dehumanisation (as EasternTiger would have it). It involves an alliance between the wealthy who want the government taking less interest in their affairs, the right who will say whatever their audience wants to hear to achieve power; it involves demonisation of minorities and the identification of the real enemy as being the entirety of the Left; as Robert Paxton put it in his book, The Anatomy of Fascism:

We need a generic term for what is a general phenomenon, indeed the most important political novelty of the 20th century, a popular movement against the Left.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to tell you what to think, or even to agree with me. What I am going to tell you is to fact check the claims to truth made in what you consume, in order to ensure that you're not being gulled. Due in part to what you've said in your post - the rise of the internet, and the opinionisation of the news - truth is remarkably difficult to ascertain most of the time, and without knowing definitively that what a source is saying is true one is drawn into partisan he said/she said.

There's also the recourse that we have other things to do with out time - maybe not so much at the moment, but in general - than research the veracity of everything we think or hold an opinion on. I do this all the time, but that changes the esteem by which I judge the value of my own opinion in that area. Simply put, if I don't know enough, I say so.
 
Uh oh, the right is NOT going to like this...
www.reuters.com

Pentagon issues de facto ban on Confederate flag at military bases

Defense Secretary Mark Esper has issued a policy ushering in a de facto ban on displaying the Confederate flag at U.S. military installations around the world by authorizing only certain flags that promote unity, according to a copy of his memo, seen by Reuters on Friday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Gethelred said:
There's also what I'd call deliberate misrepresentation by both sides of opposition views and both sides trying to lay claim to the political centre.

This is a thought provoking post, and it's clear you've put an amount of time into getting to this viewpoint, so it'd be a disservice to you to just reject what you've said at face value. However, in a lot of ways this reads like you've watched some Joe Rogan or listened to Sam Harris - or Jordan Peterson - and have accepted prima facie their arguments about 'the left'; something that is easy to do without due exposure. Part of the problem is that there is a terrible amount of conflation between the Left - which is a school of thought governing distribution, economics and organisation - and social progressivism - which governs identity, attitudes towards change, and interrelation between individuals and groups. This is done very frequently to smear the Left - as though they're one titanic ubiquitous blob, without different reasons or attitudes towards things - with progressivism.

There's also the fact that Fascism is quite a specific thing, and there's far more to it that mere dehumanisation (as EasternTiger would have it). It involves an alliance between the wealthy who want the government taking less interest in their affairs, the right who will say whatever their audience wants to hear to achieve power; it involves demonisation of minorities and the identification of the real enemy as being the entirety of the Left; as Robert Paxton put it in his book, The Anatomy of Fascism:



I'm not going to tell you what to think, or even to agree with me. What I am going to tell you is to fact check the claims to truth made in what you consume, in order to ensure that you're not being gulled. Due in part to what you've said in your post - the rise of the internet, and the opinionisation of the news - truth is remarkably difficult to ascertain most of the time, and without knowing definitively that what a source is saying is true one is drawn into partisan he said/she said.

There's also the recourse that we have other things to do with out time - maybe not so much at the moment, but in general - than research the veracity of everything we think or hold an opinion on. I do this all the time, but that changes the esteem by which I judge the value of my own opinion in that area. Simply put, if I don't know enough, I say so.
Click to expand...
Fair post Gethelred, and food for thought. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Regarding the second paragraph I actually haven't listened to either Joe or Sam (I'm not actually sure who Sam Harris is. Guessing some would say that's a good thing), although I consumed a bit of Jordan Peterson a few years ago. I'm not naive enough to think, though, that I'm safe from bias. We all have our pre-conceived biases, to deny as much would be silly.

To be honest I'm tired of this whole thing of essentially putting people into two different camps, as if it's some tribal warfare. Even though my previous post I probably did exactly that as well. It always feels like each respective side has to "win", and it gets to a point where facts either don't matter or get misrepresented.

I don't know what the ultimate answer is though. Due to the outrage issue of online engagement and political warfare it seems the divide has never been stronger. I'm sure none of it is essentially new, just very amplified.
 
T2B_ said:
Fair post Gethelred, and food for thought. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Regarding the second paragraph I actually haven't listened to either Joe or Sam (I'm not actually sure who Sam Harris is. Guessing some would say that's a good thing), although I consumed a bit of Jordan Peterson a few years ago. I'm not naive enough to think, though, that I'm safe from bias. We all have our pre-conceived biases, to deny as much would be silly.

To be honest I'm tired of this whole thing of essentially putting people into two different camps, as if it's some tribal warfare. Even though my previous post I probably did exactly that as well. It always feels like each respective side has to "win", and it gets to a point where facts either don't matter or get misrepresented.

I don't know what the ultimate answer is though. Due to the outrage issue of online engagement and political warfare it seems the divide has never been stronger. I'm sure none of it is essentially new, just very amplified.
Click to expand...
Good response.

Essentially, IMO the answer is simply to be happier to admit we don't know. Doing so is both the end of an argument and the beginning of admitting that your 'team' doesn't have all the answers. I think that's the outcome we need to move towards; moving away from right vs left, progressivism vs conservatism, liberalism vs illiberalism, and simply into good ideas/responses vs bad ones.

No side has a moratorium on good ideas. There are solutions, and those solutions can be good or bad; everything else is ideology.

Each of the lads I mention have good and bad ideas, but the problem is that between them they create an complete image of the left, and are gateways into each other. You listen to one, you are more likely to accept the different facets of each other's arguments concerning their ideological opposite. It's rather clever, and it's certainly very interesting, but it's also rather manipulative. Take each set of ideas individually, and they're not so bad and seem logical; take them together and they confect a man of straw which they call the Left, who they then proceed to beat around with a stick for their - and their audience's - entertainment.
 
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T2B_ said:
Sure, but to be honest my interest isn't really in the highest level of politics in the US. US politics has been a joke for years and god knows what's going to eventuate there. I usually observe the whole thing as a circus, as many probably do.

I'm more interested and fascinated in the way that people, everywhere, are reacting and behaving, especially online. The "you're either with us and all we believe, or your nothing" mentality, the justified censorships, justified violence, cancel culture etc etc previously mentioned in this thread all feels a little too close to, at least, heading towards something like fascism. This isn't to say those on the left are deliberately embracing fascism, that would seem absurd, but I think it's the result of a runaway effect of tactics and groupthink they are embracing.

I'm sure it would debated to the cows come home whether labeling it fascism is totally correct but my hope would be when people like that are faced with that label, maybe they will have a hard look at everything they are doing or advocating for and perhaps put the handbrake on some things before it all goes too far. For the record I don't pidgeon hole myself into being in one camp or the other, I've always swung a bit depending on the issues before me. I used to be and voted left some years ago, then was usually probably considered centre-left or centre-right depending on the issue, then when the insanity of recent times took off no doubt some of my views would be labelled absolutely right-wing. But I call it as I see it and I'm not sure why that's seen as a bad thing. I've seen people abused online for not being hard-line one way or the other and that's mind-boggling to me.
......
Click to expand...
What is cancel culture? It is a combination of boycotting and protesting outside offices, except in the 21st century utilising social media. It's nothing new, it's been happening for decades by all sides of politics. All that is new is that the current platforms it can occur on have given significantly more weight, and voice, to the masses. On both sides, for good or ill. Even the creating a name for it and projecting on the left isn't new, the right created the myth of political correctness.

But you're post you said the left is embracing fascism. That just seems like a lot of ridiculousness, while you have Trump removing US attorney's who are investigating him or his friends, federal officers who are grabbing protesters off the street of Portland without identifying themselves and detaining them (see below), attacks on the press, and calling for the deployment of the military against protesters, that it is the left that there is a concern about fascism with.

Yes, you said you weren't so concerned about the highest levels of politics, but when the people with power are cutting out prosecutors investigating them and their pals, using emergency powers to allocate funds to their own pet projects, refusing to allow government employees to testify to congress, grabbing people off the streets without identifying themselves as police, calling for violence by the police, to get concerned about people effectively boycotting/protesting against some people and calling it cancel culture seems pretty ridiculous.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-identification-forced-unmarked-minivan.html
 
Ants said:
What is cancel culture? It is a combination of boycotting and protesting outside offices, except in the 21st century utilising social media. It's nothing new, it's been happening for decades by all sides of politics. All that is new is that the current platforms it can occur on have given significantly more weight, and voice, to the masses. On both sides, for good or ill. Even the creating a name for it and projecting on the left isn't new, the right created the myth of political correctness.

But you're post you said the left is embracing fascism. That just seems like a lot of ridiculousness, while you have Trump removing US attorney's who are investigating him or his friends, federal officers who are grabbing protesters off the street of Portland without identifying themselves and detaining them (see below), attacks on the press, and calling for the deployment of the military against protesters, that it is the left that there is a concern about fascism with.

Yes, you said you weren't so concerned about the highest levels of politics, but when the people with power are cutting out prosecutors investigating them and their pals, using emergency powers to allocate funds to their own pet projects, refusing to allow government employees to testify to congress, grabbing people off the streets without identifying themselves as police, calling for violence by the police, to get concerned about people effectively boycotting/protesting against some people and calling it cancel culture seems pretty ridiculous.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-identification-forced-unmarked-minivan.html
Click to expand...

As Portland burns and courthouses set on fire cop cars set on fire by terrorists Antifa and the like. And the mayor's and governors sit back and watch their city burn,while cops are getting doxed by people if not stood down in some states.

Trump sending in feds and undercover cop cars are the issue to some......talk about drinking the kool aid. Have you asked yourself why it's got to this in Portland?
If the officials can't control their own states the Potus has to step in.

And I wonder after all the damage done in Portland(for example) if the mayor's and officials will be asking for aid of Trump like another state did and got rejected..

Mayor Lightfoot from Chicago
doesn't need any help either apparently she has it all under control......no unmarked cars in her state no no no..... as people get shot all around her every day.

The rest of your post is an anti Trump rant that Rachel Maddow would be proud of.
 
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Night Train said:
As Portland burns and courthouses set on fire cop cars set on fire by terrorists Antifa and the like. And the mayor's and governors sit back and watch their city burn,while cops are getting doxed by people if not stood down in some states.

Trump sending in feds and undercover cop cars are the issue to some......talk about drinking the kool aid. Have you asked yourself why it's got to this in Portland?
If the officials can't control their own states the Potus has to step in.

And I wonder after all the damage done in Portland(for example) if the mayor's and officials will be asking for aid of Trump like another state did and got rejected..

Mayor Lightfoot from Chicago
doesn't need any help either apparently she has it all under control......no unmarked cars in her state no no no..... as people get shot all around her every day.
Click to expand...
So to be clear, you are happy with unmarked government agents taking people off the street without identifying themselves, without arresting the individuals, and without saying why they're being grabbed?
Night Train said:
The rest of your post is an anti Trump rant that Rachel Maddow would be proud of.
Click to expand...
Sure it was a bit of a rant. Unfortunately, that doesn't make any element of it incorrect/untrue. One party is stomping on established norms, refusing to be open, and firing prosecutors while pardoning friends. Are you a supporter of this damage to democracy?
 
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