Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

[Brishawk]

We couldn’t have asked for a better start to find out where we are at. Clarko has said in the past that it takes about 5 rounds to get an understanding of how you’re going.

We’re 17th. Even if we’re a tiny bit better than that, it’s time to look for different ways to improve other than those we’ve tried.

I don’t know why you are asking me this as though it supports what you’re saying. I agree that we need to find players for the future of our defence and forward line and play them together as often as possible!

If you can agree that Scrimshaw and Lewis fit that description (and have done for quite some time), then you can understand my feelings towards their omission from the round one side.

You are saying it is time to move on from the people in the side now. I’m saying it is a completely new backline and forward line and needs time. The answer to my questions is 4 or less games together. That is it. That is all the time they have had together as a group.

I completely reject the idea that playing kids before they are ready is somehow a faster way to develop them, especially in a side that has already had a great deal of change and hasn’t formed a cohesive unit.

I completely reject the idea that not playing Lewis every game last year was bad for him. He wasn’t fit in round one and he wasn’t fit by the end of the season. We all saw it. He couldn’t get across the ground and he couldn’t put in repeat efforts. Playing him every week would likely have been terrible for him. This year he is clearly a lot fitter but when given a chance in the senior team he still wasn’t able to muster the effort to compete hard until the final quarter. That isn’t good enough. Lewis was much better against freo so hopefully he builds on that.

And while he and Kosi and jeka are still trying to work out how to just be competitive (let alone perform well) I can see Clarko picking tob a lot. It really is on those to to show they can perform better than a player we all agree is a substandard kpf. Tob has set a low bar and if they can’t demonstrate they are on that level at vfl level they aren’t going to do it at AFL level.

 

[Brishawk]

There was no VFL last season.

We can't look at Moore, Morrison and CJ and say they've hit the ground running this season because they paid their dues developing in the VFL last year.

That argument, whilst valid in relation to a lot of players over the years, can't be used with those three. Also:

Brockman - no VFL, straight into the team
Day - hardly any VFL, straight into the team

Not all players are equal and not all players are equally ready. Preseasons count for a lot too.

 

[TheFourPillars]

There was no VFL last season.

We can't look at Moore, Morrison and CJ and say they've hit the ground running this season because they paid their dues developing in the VFL last year.

That argument, whilst valid in relation to a lot of players over the years, can't be used with those three. Also:

Brockman - no VFL, straight into the team
Day - hardly any VFL, straight into the team

EXACTLY. What does that tell u about everyone else that isnt getting a game. I will let u answer that yourself

 

[Judd2Sewell]

You are saying it is time to move on from the people in the side now. I’m saying it is a completely new backline and forward line and needs time. The answer to my questions is 4 or less games together. That is it. That is all the time they have had together as a group.

I completely reject the idea that playing kids before they are ready is somehow a faster way to develop them, especially in a side that has already had a great deal of change and hasn’t formed a cohesive unit.

I completely reject the idea that not playing Lewis every game last year was bad for him. He wasn’t fit in round one and he wasn’t fit by the end of the season. We all saw it. He couldn’t get across the ground and he couldn’t put in repeat efforts. Playing him every week would likely have been terrible for him. This year he is clearly a lot fitter but when given a chance in the senior team he still wasn’t able to muster the effort to compete hard until the final quarter. That isn’t good enough. Lewis was much better against freo so hopefully he builds on that.

And while he and Kosi and jeka are still trying to work out how to just be competitive (let alone perform well) I can see Clarko picking tob a lot. It really is on those to to show they can perform better than a player we all agree is a substandard kpf. Tob has set a low bar and if they can’t demonstrate they are on that level at vfl level they aren’t going to do it at AFL level.

Lewis has performed better in his two games this year than TOB has in recent memory.

Jeka has kicked 11(?) goals in the last two games in the VFL.

Nash has been in the bests (or near abouts) every week in the VFL. He's been a standout.

Those two couldn't possibly play much better in order to earn a call up into the senior team.

We can't claim that VFL form is required before being selected, because TOB was straight back in the team after his deserved dropping without playing in the VFL. He had no form to base his inclusion off. He has then yet again had another bad game.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Not all players are equal and not all players are equally ready. Preseasons count for a lot too.

True, I'm not disregaring pre-season and personal growth in maturity. That's obviously a factor.

But what wasn't a factor was toiling away in the VFL.

 

[Brishawk]

Lewis has been taking contested marks.

Are you ignoring Kosi? Against Geelong Kosi took 3 marks and Lewis took 3. Tob got dropped after taking 6 the week before. But not because of his mark tally. It was because he didn’t compete hard enough and gave up marks to his opponent. The last quarter from Lewis was possibly all that redeemed him for the whole game. To that point they were both awful. Do you think that maybe their poor showing is why tob was brought back?

 

[burner1]

Clarko almost always goes conservative with 2-3 selections a week. It’s why our list and development is in a mess. Players like howe, Phillips, Hartigan, TOB, ceglar, Hartley, don’t get games in a rebuilding team.

Yes you can find specific examples of Clarko fast tracking a certain kid but there is far more counter examples.

Clarko is conservative at selection and player development - I’m not sure why this is contentious.

To compare to other coaches look at the amount of kids beveridge has played in last few years to fast track a young team or Longmire in last two years. Chalk and cheese to our approach. Hardwick is in a slightly different situation since 2017 but is still turning over his list aggressively moving on middle of the road players to free up slots and draft picks (tiges would have added more young talent to list than us since 2016).

Our list is in a massive hole - the only way out is to fast track youth and cop some pain over next 18 months. Yes ideally you drip feed players in etc but that’s not where our list is at nor what is needed. Since 2016 we haven’t been able replace talent quick enough and there’s a another wall coming in 3 years as silk, BB, cegs, Hartigan, breust, shiels, Gunston, Mitchell, JOM either retire or start regressing as players (noting our midfield already sucks as it is). To even replace the above in 3 years is a massive task - let alone actually improve all the other list holes we have. We’ve stuffed around for the last 4 years - if we keep on stuffing around for another 2 years I don’t think the north Melbourne calls will be far off.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Are you ignoring Kosi? Against Geelong Kosi took 3 marks and Lewis took 3. Tob got dropped after taking 6 the week before. But not because of his mark tally. It was because he didn’t compete hard enough and gave up marks to his opponent. The last quarter from Lewis was possibly all that redeemed him for the whole game. To that point they were both awful. Do you think that maybe their poor showing is why tob was brought back?

Not ignoring Kosi at all, I agree that he had a rough game.

Maybe I was being pedantic but you had said none of them were taking marks. I assumed you were referring to Lewis too?

 

[Brishawk]

Not ignoring Kosi at all, I agree that he had a rough game.

Maybe I was being pedantic but you had said none of them were taking marks. I assumed you were referring to Lewis too?

Lewis took 3 in the game tob missed. Is that the benchmark?

kosi took more marks with tob in the team against Richmond. Lewis took more marks with tob in the team against freo. Might be a coincidence. Or maybe tob doesn’t take his man to the wrong spots and make intercepting easier? Maybe he draws attention away from the other key forward? There is a lot more to senior AFL football than taking some marks.

 

[Mercy Seat]

There was no VFL last season.

We can't look at Moore, Morrison and CJ and say they've hit the ground running this season because they paid their dues developing in the VFL last year.

That argument, whilst valid in relation to a lot of players over the years, can't be used with those three. Also:

Brockman - no VFL, straight into the team
Day - hardly any VFL, straight into the team

As many have said, some players have the X factor to play AFL from day 1. Most don’t.

As for no VFL, these players weren’t ready last year, that’s just a fact. Many here wanted CJ dropped when he played in 2020. It’s not just VFL, it’s having another preseason, the right amount of training, the right mentors, and the right senior players around them.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Clarko almost always goes conservative with 2-3 selections a week. It’s why our list and development is in a mess. Players like howe, Phillips, Hartigan, TOB, ceglar, Hartley, don’t get games in a rebuilding team.

yeah dude ur right we should play Harry Pepper or Ned Reeves as our full-back given our list is flush with young KPDs

 

[Milkshaker]

This is the mindset I don’t get. It’s one thing to say “I don’t understand why he’s picked” but the common approach here is “he’s clearly sh*t and shouldn’t be picked” - despite the poster having zero access to the information that underpins such decisions.

I think most people understand this (BOLDED).

The problem with posters having this mindset is (player x must be playing their role because they keep getting picked) it limits discussion. If we all sit back and say 'player x is just following team rules' it would be a pretty limited discussion board.

Currently we have won 4 of our last 20 or so games. (Essendon, North, Carlton and GCS). Despite the bolded above people will keep talking footy and discussing our players.

It's the personal abuse of players which needs to stop. There is just no need for it, especially given your post and others around team selection and the team first ethos/methodology employed by the club, which none of us are privy to.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Lewis has performed better in his two games this year than TOB has in recent memory.

Jeka has kicked 11(?) goals in the last two games in the VFL.

Nash has been in the bests (or near abouts) every week in the VFL. He's been a standout.

Those two couldn't possibly play much better in order to earn a call up into the senior team.

We can't claim that VFL form is required before being selected, because TOB was straight back in the team after his deserved dropping without playing in the VFL. He had no form to base his inclusion off. He has then yet again had another bad game.

Including TOB's game against Essendon this year? I'm sorry you are being biased. TOB was instrumental and involved in just about every contest in that 3rd qtr that led to a goal. If you don't believe me try and watch the game again. He was better in that game than Lewis and Kosi have been this whole year. For players that have never played in the side. The path way to the seniors is through the VFL. There is no other way. The poor performance of Kosi and Lewis meant that TOB came back into the side. He was ready to play

 

[JR33]

Including TOB's game against Essendon this year? I'm sorry you are being biased. TOB was instrumental and involved in just about every contest in that 3rd qtr that led to a goal. If you don't believe me try and watch the game again. He was better in that game than Lewis and Kosi have been this whole year. For players that have never played in the side. The path way to the seniors is through the VFL. There is no other way. The poor performance of Kosi and Lewis meant that TOB came back into the side. He was ready to play

This whole year?! Lol

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

This whole year?! Lol

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

I think most people understand this (BOLDED).

The problem with posters having this mindset is (player x must be playing their role because they keep getting picked) it limits discussion. If we all sit back and say 'player x is just following team rules' it would be a pretty limited discussion board.

Currently we have won 4 of our last 20 or so games. (Essendon, North, Carlton and GCS). Despite the bolded above people will keep talking footy and discussing our players.

It's the personal abuse of players which needs to stop. There is just no need for it, especially given your post and others around team selection and the team first ethos/methodology employed by the club, which none of us are privy to.

yeah I agree with this. People keep confusing 'I don't understand' with 'I do understand, but don't like it'

 

[TheFourPillars]

This whole year?! Lol

Yes the games they have played this year. I should have said this year.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Morrison looks completely transformed over one preseason. So does Cj for that matter.

All he has done is transfer his BHH form into the AFL. Finally, he has a spot and an opportunity after sitting behind Hendo and Scully. Wihtout creating space the kids have no chance.

 

[theiaofseed]

Yes the games they have played this year. I should have said this year.

Lewis has been far from poor.

 

[burner1]

yeah dude ur right we should play Harry Pepper or Ned Reeves as our full-back given our list is flush with young KPDs

That’s what you took from the post? Really?
Of course we don’t have any kpd options - but the fact we don’t highlights something is broken.

But the broader point is we’re still playing too many guys who shouldn’t be in a rebuilding team - they’re sucking up spots/development time.
And yes the guys coming in will be in- experienced - but the only way to fix it is to cop some pain. We’re in far too much of a hole to drip feed 1-2 in as is Clarkos way.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Lewis has been far from poor.

The quote was that Lewis had played better than any games TOB played in recent memory. Lewis hasn't been poor but he isn't lighting it up either.

 

[burner1]

All he has done is transfer his BHH form into the AFL. Finally, he has a spot and an opportunity after sitting behind Hendo and Scully. Wihtout creating space the kids have no chance.

I agree on the opportunity point - need to create space.

However, I’m not even sure Harry is playing that well. Scully would likely be having a greater impact if still playing. And if 2019 hendo was playing the comparison to Harry would be stark - but at present he only has to look a better winger than howe or Phillips (not a high bar). He’s a handy link player who’s playing his role but way way behind the standards of smith and hendo - and I reckon he’ll never get close (and yes he’s still young etc but is never going to have the line breaking run of smith or elite skills of hendo). Wouldn’t be hard to see downie or bramble go past him in 12-18 months time if we are really trying to move to a more modern game style. Our standards have dropped.

 

[theiaofseed]

The quote was that Lewis had played better than any games TOB played in recent memory. Lewis hasn't been poor but he isn't lighting it up either.

" The poor performance of Kosi and Lewis meant that TOB came back into the side. He was ready to play "

Did you watch that last quarter against Geelong? He was the reason we were able to score and was playing against far better opponents. Let alone his whole game last week.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

That’s what you took from the post? Really?
Of course we don’t have any kpd options - but the fact we don’t highlights something is broken.

But the broader point is we’re still playing too many guys who shouldn’t be in a rebuilding team - they’re sucking up spots/development time.
And yes the guys coming in will be in- experienced - but the only way to fix it is to cop some pain. We’re in far too much of a hole to drip feed 1-2 in as is Clarkos way.

i disagree with your whole premise that 'x' players don't get games in rebuilding teams

let's take a look at some of these teams that are 'rebuilding' properly

Brisbane are probably the best example, let's examine their team in 2017

Ryan Lester, Ryan Bastinac, Rohan Bewick, Josh Walker, Claye Beams, Ryan Harwood and Tom Bell all played substantial games for this team. These are blokes in the age range of the people you mentioned, who are now out of the league (except Walker). However, you wouldn't call their rebuild unsuccessful, would you?

Hodge also got significant game time the year after when they finished bottom 4 again.

Teams don't just throw away experienced, but average players because they're rebuilding. It's simply not what happens. They play a role in the team, if they underperform, they get dropped if someone else can play their role better. Acting as though we are the only team that does this is ridiculous. We did the same thing in 05/06. Not to mention at this point Brisbane had a glut of high draft picks, much more likely to be afl ready at a young age, compared to our current list.

 

[grumbleguts]

We couldn’t have asked for a better start to find out where we are at.

Yes we could. This shows you're either trolling now or you have no idea what you are talking about.

If we played 4 teams destined for or predicted to finish mid table, then we would know where we are at. As it stands, we played both of last years premiers in the first 3 rounds. Hardly a great way to find out where we are at.