Worldwide Rally for Freedom.

Power Raid said:
different jurisdictions face different pressures and thus a different "balance" regarding protecting freedoms needs to be adopted
Click to expand...
What a load of waffle.

Power Raid said:
my reference to deaths in India and other places due to lock downs was only presented to highlight all decisions have costs (including death). Same said with being vaxxed or not being vaxxed.
Click to expand...
In India, what alternative to lockdowns would you have advocated? No lockdowns?

You're saying a lot of stupid things.
 
Power Raid said:
please feel free to create a new thread for drink driving laws

but feel free to comment here about:

This rally is about "taking a stand for 5 important Freedoms":

• Freedom of Speech.
• Freedom of Movement.
• Freedom of Choice.
• Freedom of Assembly.
• Freedom of Health.
Click to expand...
The rallying cry was for the "5 important freedoms" but as happens, certain groups and individuals hijack these honourable objectives and use them as a shield to promulgate their own doctrines.

For example, we had the far-right, the supremacist Christian Nationalists who marched because of all the above plus, to protest against a democratically elected Government(s) who put in place measures to try and control an out of control pathogen that threatens the lives and welfare of all the community. They do this because they feel that their freedom of movement and assembly is threatened and anyway, God's on their side and they're safe and to hell with everyone else; literally.

Anti-Vaxxers marched to affirm their freedom of choice. QAnon types marched because they reckon that all of their "five freedoms" are being violated and Mundine marched because he is standing up for equality for Aboriginal people and an end to institutionalised racism and violence.

The fascists and white supremacists marched because their perceived supremacy and therefore their "freedom", is being challenged by non-Christians, non-whites, leftists.

All the above groups have an axe to grind and if they had their way, then their way would be the ONLY way - so much for Freedom of Speech, Movement, Choice, Assembly, Health and I'd like to add Democracy, and that is why in this truly democratic country, our Governments are mandated by us to take the necessary measures to protect all of us.

The so called "Freedom Rallies" would have us believe that the citizens of Australia are being subjected to some world wide conspiracy to oppress us into slavery. This is a preposterous assumption and what is also very, very alarming, is how "dumbed down", to use an American term, Australians have become.

Our whole democracy is based upon the "5 important Freedoms" and that is what the majority of those who marched in the "freedom rally" have failed to stand up for and indeed, some have fully supported authoritarian laws which make a mockery of the "5 Freedoms" they reckon they are standing up for. For example, in 2018, the Australian Parliament made it a crime for charities to expose human rights violations and to communicate with the United Nations about those violations - so much for freedom of Speech.

Since the 11th of September, 2001 terrorist atrocities, Australian Federal Governments have legislated a raft of anti-democratic and authoritarian laws which have gone directly against the "5 Freedoms" and which have led to some grave injustices, eg. to Dr Muhamed Haneef, Bernard Collaery and Witness K, the AFP raids on the ABC and on the of News Corp journalist Annika Smethurst. There are unprecedented powers for AFP preventative detention orders, AFP control orders, and ASIO questioning and detention powers and these law changes were passed without a whimper of protest from the vast majority of those marching even though, these law changes impinge greatly upon their civil liberties.

In 2016, the Serious Crime Prevention Orders Bill and the Organised Crime and Public Safety Bill were simultaneously pushed through both houses of the NSW parliament by the State’s Liberal-National government in just 24 hours. These laws override fundamental legal and democratic rights. These two laws allow police officers to issue sweeping “crime prevention” and “public safety” orders, including forms of house arrest for up to five years without a charge, trial, or conviction. You can be put in jail for up to seven years for hindering a mining project and these laws can be used to suppress opposition, including industrial action by workers in response to the deepening assault on jobs, living standards and social conditions. The laws give police officers themselves virtually unchallengeable powers to impose orders that can strip individuals of their freedom of movement, employment and right to communicate but it seems that if some overseas outfit doesn't organise a "big day out" to protest, then ignorance is bliss!

The protestors yesterday were, for all intents and purposes, a "rent-a-crowd". How else could a KKK oi oi oi monster march next to a black fella marching next to a Christian Nationalist, next to a hippie, next to a neurotic conspiracy theorist etc etc.? Answer: find a "boogie man" to unite them all and the "boogie man" in this instance is/are, the democratically elected governments who are trying to protect all the citizens from a real and dangerous maiming and killing machine called SARS-CoV-2.

I'm sure we all get it that some people don't want to be vaccinated against anything but I'm sure, that if this person who refused to have their child vaccinated for whooping cough for example, sits next to me with my child in a bus and my little one contracts that highly infectious disease and dies, I'm sure that people would understand my savagery towards that person or do I just say, "good onya for sticking to your 5 Freedoms and the least I could do is sacrifice the life of my child so you can have the freedom to make a Choice, the freedom to choose what you reckon is good for your Health and your Health alone, the freedom to Move around wherever and whenever you want and the freedom to Assemble with like minded people with their unvaccinated infants."?

We are free in this country but we also have a duty to our fellow citizens, to our neighbours and loved ones to follow reasoned, logical and sensible direction from Government for the benefit of all and if you don't want to be vaccinated, that's cool, but abide by the rules of social distancing, the wearing of masks in public, of general hygiene for the safety of others even if you think that you are immune to the virus. If you think that the virus is a hoax even though the same scientists and doctors who gave your grand-mum a new knee and your Dad a new heart are liars, that's cool, but you are in the minority my son and if you choose to put my and my loved ones lives at risk by not following the logical and reasonable directions for public safety, then go to jail because you are taking away my Freedom to not associate with persons that are dangerous to me and my loved ones.

People are free to believe what they want to believe but in an advanced, secular and civilised democratic nation, we expect our Governments to put in place procedures for the protection of all citizens in times of crisis and the least we can do, regardless of our own beliefs, is to follow these directions to the best of our ability and conscience. If we are told to stay at home because it is not safe to go out of doors, then stay home even if you think the whole thing is an overreaction or not that serious. If you think the vaccinations aren't for you, don't have 'em but don't expect to be allowed to work in facilities where there are elderly, sick and/or vulnerable people - just accept that as we accept your right not to get vaccinated and that is the crux of all of this: it is impossible to put in place rules and regulations that are going to meet with the approval of ALL people and personally, I find it offensive that some, a minority and that's what they are, a minority going by all the elections that have taken place during the pandemic and the overwhelming approval by every opinion poll of the way that State Governments have handled this crisis; I find it offensive that the minority that protested reckon that their and only their "5 Freedoms" have been impacted by the necessary restrictions put in place for the benefit of all.

We have all been effected by the restrictions and they are not a threat to our "5 Freedoms". The restrictions are necessary in order to be able to get back to "normal" so we can all go about freely. They are not about oppressing anyone or any group of people. Unfortunately, the law-of-the-jungle, every-man-for-himself society that has emerged from the adoption of unbridled capitalism since the early 1980's, has led not only to a greedy, self centred mind set amongst many in our communities, it has also stripped away the comfort that came with the protection that was assured by the state and left people feeling vulnerable and cynical and along comes a biological weapon that doesn't discriminate, and we have the confluence of the greedy and the self centred with the disenfranchised and cynical and in that extraordinary point in time, and in the absence of decisive and honest leadership right from the top, these disparates are ripe for the picking and they have well and truly been plucked by the far-right who have got them to focus on a common enemy: "deep state actors" ie. Government's that are being being controlled by the "deep state". Where have we heard that before?
 
Stating the obvious I suppose. I guess the Anti-vaxxer conspiracists will just say this is part of the conspiracy, or that science doesn't matter. Or "Show us the empirical evidence!!"

thenewdaily.com.au

Conspiracy theorists lack critical thinking skills: New study

The more people believe in conspiracy theories, the worse they perform on critical thinking tests, a new study has confirmed.
thenewdaily.com.au thenewdaily.com.au
 
Northalives said:
The rallying cry was for the "5 important freedoms" but as happens, certain groups and individuals hijack these honourable objectives and use them as a shield to promulgate their own doctrines.

For example, we had the far-right, the supremacist Christian Nationalists who marched because of all the above plus, to protest against a democratically elected Government(s) who put in place measures to try and control an out of control pathogen that threatens the lives and welfare of all the community. They do this because they feel that their freedom of movement and assembly is threatened and anyway, God's on their side and they're safe and to hell with everyone else; literally.

Anti-Vaxxers marched to affirm their freedom of choice. QAnon types marched because they reckon that all of their "five freedoms" are being violated and Mundine marched because he is standing up for equality for Aboriginal people and an end to institutionalised racism and violence.

The fascists and white supremacists marched because their perceived supremacy and therefore their "freedom", is being challenged by non-Christians, non-whites, leftists.

All the above groups have an axe to grind and if they had their way, then their way would be the ONLY way - so much for Freedom of Speech, Movement, Choice, Assembly, Health and I'd like to add Democracy, and that is why in this truly democratic country, our Governments are mandated by us to take the necessary measures to protect all of us.

The so called "Freedom Rallies" would have us believe that the citizens of Australia are being subjected to some world wide conspiracy to oppress us into slavery. This is a preposterous assumption and what is also very, very alarming, is how "dumbed down", to use an American term, Australians have become.

Our whole democracy is based upon the "5 important Freedoms" and that is what the majority of those who marched in the "freedom rally" have failed to stand up for and indeed, some have fully supported authoritarian laws which make a mockery of the "5 Freedoms" they reckon they are standing up for. For example, in 2018, the Australian Parliament made it a crime for charities to expose human rights violations and to communicate with the United Nations about those violations - so much for freedom of Speech.

Since the 11th of September, 2001 terrorist atrocities, Australian Federal Governments have legislated a raft of anti-democratic and authoritarian laws which have gone directly against the "5 Freedoms" and which have led to some grave injustices, eg. to Dr Muhamed Haneef, Bernard Collaery and Witness K, the AFP raids on the ABC and on the of News Corp journalist Annika Smethurst. There are unprecedented powers for AFP preventative detention orders, AFP control orders, and ASIO questioning and detention powers and these law changes were passed without a whimper of protest from the vast majority of those marching even though, these law changes impinge greatly upon their civil liberties.

In 2016, the Serious Crime Prevention Orders Bill and the Organised Crime and Public Safety Bill were simultaneously pushed through both houses of the NSW parliament by the State’s Liberal-National government in just 24 hours. These laws override fundamental legal and democratic rights. These two laws allow police officers to issue sweeping “crime prevention” and “public safety” orders, including forms of house arrest for up to five years without a charge, trial, or conviction. You can be put in jail for up to seven years for hindering a mining project and these laws can be used to suppress opposition, including industrial action by workers in response to the deepening assault on jobs, living standards and social conditions. The laws give police officers themselves virtually unchallengeable powers to impose orders that can strip individuals of their freedom of movement, employment and right to communicate but it seems that if some overseas outfit doesn't organise a "big day out" to protest, then ignorance is bliss!

The protestors yesterday were, for all intents and purposes, a "rent-a-crowd". How else could a KKK oi oi oi monster march next to a black fella marching next to a Christian Nationalist, next to a hippie, next to a neurotic conspiracy theorist etc etc.? Answer: find a "boogie man" to unite them all and the "boogie man" in this instance is/are, the democratically elected governments who are trying to protect all the citizens from a real and dangerous maiming and killing machine called SARS-CoV-2.

I'm sure we all get it that some people don't want to be vaccinated against anything but I'm sure, that if this person who refused to have their child vaccinated for whooping cough for example, sits next to me with my child in a bus and my little one contracts that highly infectious disease and dies, I'm sure that people would understand my savagery towards that person or do I just say, "good onya for sticking to your 5 Freedoms and the least I could do is sacrifice the life of my child so you can have the freedom to make a Choice, the freedom to choose what you reckon is good for your Health and your Health alone, the freedom to Move around wherever and whenever you want and the freedom to Assemble with like minded people with their unvaccinated infants."?

We are free in this country but we also have a duty to our fellow citizens, to our neighbours and loved ones to follow reasoned, logical and sensible direction from Government for the benefit of all and if you don't want to be vaccinated, that's cool, but abide by the rules of social distancing, the wearing of masks in public, of general hygiene for the safety of others even if you think that you are immune to the virus. If you think that the virus is a hoax even though the same scientists and doctors who gave your grand-mum a new knee and your Dad a new heart are liars, that's cool, but you are in the minority my son and if you choose to put my and my loved ones lives at risk by not following the logical and reasonable directions for public safety, then go to jail because you are taking away my Freedom to not associate with persons that are dangerous to me and my loved ones.

People are free to believe what they want to believe but in an advanced, secular and civilised democratic nation, we expect our Governments to put in place procedures for the protection of all citizens in times of crisis and the least we can do, regardless of our own beliefs, is to follow these directions to the best of our ability and conscience. If we are told to stay at home because it is not safe to go out of doors, then stay home even if you think the whole thing is an overreaction or not that serious. If you think the vaccinations aren't for you, don't have 'em but don't expect to be allowed to work in facilities where there are elderly, sick and/or vulnerable people - just accept that as we accept your right not to get vaccinated and that is the crux of all of this: it is impossible to put in place rules and regulations that are going to meet with the approval of ALL people and personally, I find it offensive that some, a minority and that's what they are, a minority going by all the elections that have taken place during the pandemic and the overwhelming approval by every opinion poll of the way that State Governments have handled this crisis; I find it offensive that the minority that protested reckon that their and only their "5 Freedoms" have been impacted by the necessary restrictions put in place for the benefit of all.

We have all been effected by the restrictions and they are not a threat to our "5 Freedoms". The restrictions are necessary in order to be able to get back to "normal" so we can all go about freely. They are not about oppressing anyone or any group of people. Unfortunately, the law-of-the-jungle, every-man-for-himself society that has emerged from the adoption of unbridled capitalism since the early 1980's, has led not only to a greedy, self centred mind set amongst many in our communities, it has also stripped away the comfort that came with the protection that was assured by the state and left people feeling vulnerable and cynical and along comes a biological weapon that doesn't discriminate, and we have the confluence of the greedy and the self centred with the disenfranchised and cynical and in that extraordinary point in time, and in the absence of decisive and honest leadership right from the top, these disparates are ripe for the picking and they have well and truly been plucked by the far-right who have got them to focus on a common enemy: "deep state actors" ie. Government's that are being being controlled by the "deep state". Where have we heard that before?
Click to expand...

Excellent post and couldn’t agree more

What I feel a debate about freedoms are, is not a debate about absolute freedoms but freedoms in context of the environment. As the environment changes, so does the pendulum.

An example of the pendulum is freedom of speech vs hate speech and defamation. At different times, the pendulum relating to these competing principles moves.

What we also see is this issue mobilises many different types of people and it is interesting to hear there interpretation of freedoms.

I also question whether the right to bear arms actually includes the right for “towel heads and blacks” in the eyes of the KKK? Which is just another example of competing principles
 
Sweet Jesus said:
There is a huge backlash coming against anti-vaxxers.
Click to expand...

Do you feel this backlash will result in discrimination, impact freedoms, impact medical in confidence and impact children?

If so, to what degree do you feel is acceptable from government, individuals and private enterprises?
 
Power Raid said:
lol

I'm pro vax but in the relevant situation today it is the exact opposite.

Many pro-vaxers are enforcing their beliefs on others. We also have had calls here on BF for the navy to use merchant ships, with crew suffering from covid, as target practice.

We have premiers saying they would prefer to turn ships around and ignore our responsibility to provide health care to ships crew. This despite it is these very crewman (ships and planes) who keep millions of us alive.
Click to expand...

Where?

The rest of your post...??
Really, cherry picking a few crazy comments mate.

The protests are against masks and lock downs.
The shots are and always have been voluntary.
 
I'm actually a little bit stunned by this thread.

I can certainly understand having a little laugh a the nut bags attending a protest but the underlying debate presented of the various freedoms is a good thing.

Does anyone really support using health data or health apps, to be used in law enforcement? Especially when the government specifically claims there are safeguards to protect the data.
Does anyone really support lock downs under "best health advice", when the actual reality was the "under worst case scenario, that did not exist at the time, was adopted"?
Does anyone really feel compulsory vaccination is reasonable and compulsory disclosure of medical records as reasonable?

I'm also stunned by contrasts in position, such as:
Pro-diversity, anti-discrimination, tolerance and then let's discriminate against anti-vax, force them to receive medical procedures and hope certain groups die


I would suggest we have forgotten so quickly about religious wars from Australia's anglo backgrounds, our treatment of Aborigines, our treatment of women and our treatment of the mentally ill. All these are example of hatred of those different and preying upon there vulnerable position. That is gutless!

Preserving freedoms and stopping government over reach is what makes Australia the great nation it is. Breaking this down to the grass roots, this essentially means protecting individuals from the cruel masses motivated by fear.
 
Pie eyed said:
Where?

The rest of your post...??
Really, cherry picking a few crazy comments mate.

The protests are against masks and lock downs.
The shots are and always have been voluntary.
Click to expand...

I hear you

The protest headlines are about 5 important freedoms. For this I would hope all of us agree are extremely important and should celebrate discussion. I'd also hope we all agree these freedoms are balanced out in context to the environment including competing interests. No different to accounting principles of timeliness and accuracy being trade offs or freedom of speech and defamation.

In regards to masks, lock downs and vaccination; I would hope there was debate and challenges of ideas. Personally I find protests in the form of street marches inappropriate in any situation as they are bullying tactics, disruptive and cater to the lowest dregs of society. However:
health data is being used for law enforcement
vaccines have not been given full approvals (provisional approvals only) as they are not proven safe as yet
I'm pro vax and have had two pfizers already, but this is my body and my choice. People should not be forced to accept a medical procedure and if we change our minds as a society we should have a very long and careful debate.
We should also debate whether we should have to hand over our medical records to any individual, corporation or government. If we change our minds, we should have a debate and with that question whether it only applies to medicare.
It's interesting many would be anti burka but now pro mask. Again I feel there is nothing wrong with a debate, even if I personally agree in a sensible application context.


Sure most of these protestors are muppets but muppets vote and muppets have a right to speak their minds.



and no, I wasn't cherry picking. It is extremely relevant to highlight the most dangerous people are those that try and control others. Especially when they are blinkered and fail to see they are guilty of doing exactly what they accuse others of. Is that gaslighting?
 
HurleyHepsHird said:
I wonder about the current Q anon phenomena, does it lose steam or slowly morph into an ISIS style death cult, of car dealership owners and suburban soccer mums?
Click to expand...
~20% of Americans still think Trump won the last election.
I'm sure they'll find a new wagon to hitch their ideas to. UFOs or muslims are strong bets.
 
Power Raid said:
Do you feel this backlash will result in discrimination, impact freedoms, impact medical in confidence and impact children?

If so, to what degree do you feel is acceptable from government, individuals and private enterprises?
Click to expand...
Didn't you want to put all drugs users out in the middle of the desert with a clean up or leave in box option?
 
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