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List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
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Joffaboy said:
Well the dealer shouldn't demand the cost of a Lexus for the Camry
Click to expand...


I 100% agree I've said his value is probably a guaranteed $500k and some bonuses that he hasn't yet achieved as a driver. You wouldn't replace him for anything close to that.
 
gringo2011 said:
He looked like a long term project when he was at Sandy but showed glimpses. He was not much of a ruckman even at VFL level but marking and game sense seemed good for a big guy. Probably similar to Marshall.
Click to expand...
Saw McLean play at Sandy he looked good with potential. Just cannot understand why we did not pick him up as a rookie the year before he was drafted by Swans or even grab him in the draft.
Now that he has time at Swans we will grab him at the highest draft pick cost possible.
Just does not make any sense...it would be a damning indictment of our recruiting processes...as he was right under our nose and let him go


On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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g_TRAIN said:
I see Billings as a non-turbo Ford Focuss only when we brought it we thought it was turbo and now we have buyers remorse.
Click to expand...

NAh more an Aurion, Camry body with a Lexus V6 engine. Doesn't look much but is deceiving in delivery and performance ;)
 
Tommy Wigs said:
Yep, get in
Click to expand...
Quandry with recruiting a good 2nd ruckman- Where do you play him? Ryder is one of the top ruckmen in the league and is a key driver with this team. Marshall is advocated as a top ruckman also and at the minute is THE ruckman, and he is supported by ruckmen we recruited who are basically good SANFL players or the like. The team has got itself into a situation where " cant win unless we have Paddy and Marshall playing at the same time" Thats ok they both team very well together but Marshall does not have the impact on his own that Paddy has !! Posters have denied putting Marshall in any other position except the ruck. So where does Colman Jones for e.g fit? He wont play in the magoos thats for sure and will be on a nice quid. Forward line?- no because all and sundry are chasing B.King who will play CHF if recruited.

People blame the midfield for failures at centre bounces and stoppages- if so, what is being done about that? We (posters) are chasing a ruckman on the reliance of Paddy being injured for half of 2022 or that being his last season, I have no idea what the club thinks. 2 young ruckmen in the wings but are 2 years away from what I hear. IMO, forget King- recruit a good back-up ruckman Chol/C-Jones or mason cox and play Marshall at CHF.
 
BigMonty said:
Saw McLean play at Sandy he looked good with potential. Just cannot understand why we did not pick him up as a rookie the year before he was drafted by Swans or even grab him in the draft.
Now that he has time at Swans we will grab him at the highest draft pick cost possible.
Just does not make any sense...it would be a damning indictment of our recruiting processes...as he was right under our nose and let him go


On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...


I remember reading about Marshall and they were saying that lots of clubs were watching him but were waiting for him to partially develop before they jumped and we flinched first. I think with McLean it might have been similar, he looked very promising but probably 4 or 5 years off regular games. They almost need a seperate ruck-mans draft or ruck rookie list where clubs can develop them outside the primary list. He was super raw when he was playing VFL so probably fair to get some return on their development to be honest. Doubt he'd be worth much either. Probably a future third rounder at most.
 
Premium said:
Seb Ross was the best mid in a very average side , we need a good midfield and even Jones has by far surpassed Ross and having Crouch , Steele in the middle we really need to get the youth time through the midfield and playing Ross instead of Gresham , Clark , Bytel , Byrne.
Keep him for depth but he would know he will battle to hold his spot is a stronger 22 and it the reason he is looking else where and we really can't afford to hide him in another position - time to get rid of the Richo click / Geary / Ross / Billings / Newnes
Click to expand...

I think your pretty close to the mark there. Clark is the one who needs to have a big pre season and have a big year through the middle. Gresham will slot straight back in if he is injury free.

I would be looking at including Sinclair in the midfield group permanently next year. Great spread speed and power out of stoppage with great running power, decision making, marking and importantly disposal. He could well become a competition top 30 in my view but probably not from a half back flank.

I’m a huge fan of Billings team first attitude, which he has displayed his whole career and as such think we must stick to our moniker/slogan and show him loyalty. His football will always be best 22 on account of his efficient foot skills and decision making.

Bytel and Byrnes have showed enough promise to round out the group.

I would keep Dunstan as depth because he would come reasonably cheap for the output we get from him.

We will forget about Ross pretty quickly.
 
gringo2011 said:
If we are playing the too average to play for the Saints we'll only have a handful of players. We have to cull hard to live by your standards.
Click to expand...

My point is that for what we’re paying Ross, he shouldn’t be average or as he can sometimes be a complete liability. He ain’t getting better and there’s a chance we actually get a little return for him which might see as avoid a draft deficit for our NGA lads.

I take your point there is a lot of average players but if we accept the Ross’s of the world to continue on indefinitely, then we really will be a middling team forever.

High wage, on the decline and average performance breeds dissent and it’s a problem we need to stamp out.
 
I think everyone can agree we need Hunter Clark to have a big pre-season. Can be a difference maker in the guts for us.
 

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gringo2011 said:
Billings is a Camry or something that an old person would drive. A bit boring but is low maintenance and reliable. He won't get you a speeding ticket but it probably seems too much to pay for such a dull unit but pays it's self off in trouble free motoring.

Agreed, should talk the dealer down on price but you don't go to buy a Camry and expect to get it for the price of a Corolla either.
Click to expand...

If JB is anything he’s a super reliable German car…

We thought we were getting a Porsche but got a Audi instead


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
joydivision22 said:
My point is that for what we’re paying Ross, he shouldn’t be average or as he can sometimes be a complete liability. He ain’t getting better and there’s a chance we actually get a little return for him which might see as avoid a draft deficit for our NGA lads.

I take your point there is a lot of average players but if we accept the Ross’s of the world to continue on indefinitely, then we really will be a middling team forever.

High wage, on the decline and average performance breeds dissent and it’s a problem we need to stamp out.
Click to expand...


I disagree, cull all the okay players and rely on youth to improve when you don't even have many is a bottom out rebuild. I'd say we are either convinced that we botched it like North did and rebuild properly or try the Carlton model of a half in rebuild while staying competitive. If we are rebuilding get them to come out and ask for patience and stop bullshitting us along. Cull a dozen like North did and rebuild hard.

This ambiguous culling but buying similar average talent for high prices doesn't seem to be a sustainable model. For all the work we've done in 3 year under Lethlean we seem to be exactly where we were under Trout and Richo but with a different group of average talent apart from King and Steele. Back then it was Riewoldt/Bruce and Stuv.

No one wants to over pay anyone but if we can get him for what isn't insulting we should be doing that. None of our imported talent since Steele is that high end any way. Swapping ours out will cost a higher wage and some kind of capital to trade them in.
 
Winmar2Lockett said:
If JB is anything he’s a super reliable German car…

We thought we were getting a Porsche but got a Audi instead


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


You don't get anything more relliable than a Toyota. JB is a bit too boring for a German car, maybe one of those big old 1980s Volvos with the orthopaedic-sandal style bumper bars in vanilla beige.
 

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BrutThough said:
The 18-year old question also depends on how many other list changes we make. And what range of the draft we would end u having.

I'm fine with letting Dunstan go. Think it is in the best interest of both parties. We have the players to replace him and his form in the 2nd half of the year has turned his return from nothing into a potentially useable pick.

Ross is a more interesting one. Not the end of the world if he lost him but if the choice was between him or a fresh draftee from where the compo pick is likely be, I would prefer Ross. He is better than he gets credit for and is still very much a best 22 player. I think the rate of improvement Byrnes and Bytel would need to to have would be extremely high for them to pass Ross as a player next year.
Click to expand...
But it’s not just next year.
These FA’s are all up for career defining contracts.
So the arguments about them being better than their replacements, or providing depth etc, need to be valid for not just 2022. But 2023, 2024 ….
That’s the crux of the matter.
You, or gringo2011 , or Yawkey way , might very well be justified in your arguments for 2022.
But that position is weakened with each passing year.
We may very well find Bytel and Byrnes move past Ross and Dunstan within 12 months and we are left with very expensive depth for perhaps another two + years. Especially considering that there will be another layer under their replacements from this year’s draft as well.
Billings is a slightly different argument: either his compensation is commensurate with proven output, or we gain a valuable draft pick.
That‘s the risk of accepting the argument supporting the FA’s retention.
The counter argument (ScrappyDo , Mowman etc) of offloading the FA’s loads all the risk into one year: 2022.
Because we currently have the cover for two of them, and potentially another layer under them from this year’s draft, and because we either retain a good player at better cost or else turn him into something more valuable.
Either argument carries risk.
That’s why this discussion is going on so long.

In prior years we were debating whether Jelly would or wouldn’t come.
A much simpler proposition.
 
sunny3193 said:
But it’s not just next year.
These FA’s are all up for career defining contracts.
So the arguments about them being better than their replacements, or providing depth etc, need to be valid for not just 2022. But 2023, 2024 ….
That’s the crux of the matter.
You, or gringo2011 , or Yawkey way , might very well be justified in your arguments for 2022.
But that position is weakened with each passing year.
We may very well find Bytel and Byrnes move past Ross and Dunstan within 12 months and we are left with very expensive depth for perhaps another two + years. Especially considering that there will be another layer under their replacements from this year’s draft as well.
Billings is a slightly different argument: either his compensation is commensurate with proven output, or we gain a valuable draft pick.
That‘s the risk of accepting the argument supporting the FA’s retention.
The counter argument (ScrappyDo , Mowman etc) of offloading the FA’s loads all the risk into one year: 2022.
Because we currently have the cover for two of them, and potentially another layer under them from this year’s draft, and because we either retain a good player at better cost or else turn him into something more valuable.
Either argument carries risk.
That’s why this discussion is going on so long.

In prior years we were debating whether Jelly would or wouldn’t come.
A much simpler proposition.
Click to expand...


They do both have risk but from experience the last time we followed this exact model is why we have half a dozen GOPs being paid like stars because we shipped out the older generations for these guys to get a clear run at it. We are paying Hill and Hanners each the kind of money that would have paid for two of them. It's a bit rich to have to cull your core players because you spent up big on a bunch of overpriced shit boxes that went nowhere. Luckily we had to spend that money because we wouldn't have been able to otherwise and leadership and stuff.

I'm not sure how much time the club thinks it can spend being uncompetitive. If Bytel and Byrnes don't come on then we are looking at waiting for the layer under them to come on.
 
gringo2011 said:
I disagree, cull all the okay players and rely on youth to improve when you don't even have many is a bottom out rebuild. I'd say we are either convinced that we botched it like North did and rebuild properly or try the Carlton model of a half in rebuild while staying competitive. If we are rebuilding get them to come out and ask for patience and stop bullshitting us along. Cull a dozen like North did and rebuild hard.

This ambiguous culling but buying similar average talent for high prices doesn't seem to be a sustainable model. For all the work we've done in 3 year under Lethlean we seem to be exactly where we were under Trout and Richo but with a different group of average talent apart from King and Steele. Back then it was Riewoldt/Bruce and Stuv.

No one wants to over pay anyone but if we can get him for what isn't insulting we should be doing that. None of our imported talent since Steele is that high end any way. Swapping ours out will cost a higher wage and some kind of capital to trade them in.
Click to expand...

I think I tend to agree with your strategy point of view. I do not want us to undertake a bottom out rebuild as you’ve described.

All I’m suggesting we do is offload 1 okay player in Ross and where we obviously disagree is his value/output. I would absolutely keep Billings and Dunstan for reasons I’ve outlined earlier.

Moving on just Ross for hopefully a pick which nets us enough for NGA kids, also gets us back his salary and we can absolutely (IMO and seemingly St.K officials opinion thankfully) replace Ross’s on field output with simply the injured players lost games from this season in 20 from Gresham and about 10 from Jones. I don’t believe we need to trade in anyone to replace him. Bank his dollars for a rainy day.
 
sunny3193 said:
But it’s not just next year.
These FA’s are all up for career defining contracts.
So the arguments about them being better than their replacements, or providing depth etc, need to be valid for not just 2022. But 2023, 2024 ….
That’s the crux of the matter.
You, or gringo2011 , or Yawkey way , might very well be justified in your arguments for 2022.
But that position is weakened with each passing year.
We may very well find Bytel and Byrnes move past Ross and Dunstan within 12 months and we are left with very expensive depth for perhaps another two + years. Especially considering that there will be another layer under their replacements from this year’s draft as well.
Billings is a slightly different argument: either his compensation is commensurate with proven output, or we gain a valuable draft pick.
That‘s the risk of accepting the argument supporting the FA’s retention.
The counter argument (ScrappyDo , Mowman etc) of offloading the FA’s loads all the risk into one year: 2022.
Because we currently have the cover for two of them, and potentially another layer under them from this year’s draft, and because we either retain a good player at better cost or else turn him into something more valuable.
Either argument carries risk.
That’s why this discussion is going on so long.

In prior years we were debating whether Jelly would or wouldn’t come.
A much simpler proposition.
Click to expand...
But if Ross and Dunstan both only get us a band 3 compensation, then those picks will be about 40 and 41.
So then we'll have two 3rd round 18yo draftees in the best 22 every week instead of two seasoned GOP's. How will that make us better sunny3193 ?
 
ScrappyDo said:
But if Ross and Dunstan both only get us a band 3 compensation, then those picks will be about 40 and 41.
So then we'll have two 3rd round 18yo draftees in the best 22 every week instead of two seasoned GOP's. How will that make us better sunny3193 ?
Click to expand...
next year it won't
the years after it hopefully will
I guess that's the point
 
Apologies if has been posted but:

According to Hawks insider with a very good track record (Hodgeball for those of you playing at home):

Josh Battle is disgruntled and gettable. Wants to be a forward instead of a Mr Fix It and wouldn't be surprised if he isn't at Saints in 2022 despite contract. Collingwood and Melbourne went hard a few years ago.
 
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