News Adelaide Crows Camp Allegations and Rumors

[Mego Red]

Fairly on the money, except that if the club had handled the GF fallout better, things may have held together.

People forget, we already had CM engaged for much of that season. The power stance was a Tex thing that came out of CM sessions. They had already had an influence, because we had replaced the Leading Teams program with CM that year.

CM, until the camp, was that wanky mob you tolerate at work because the boss thinks it's a good idea. Some buy in, most don't. If their involvement had stayed at that, it would have been nothing more than a consultancy spend that was largely ineffective. In fact, David Leckie actually had some runs on the board in this regard, with his previous consultancy. Most of the credits on the CM promo material appear to relate to Leckie's prior work it seems.

The problem is, they engaged this mob to run a camp and didn't do their due diligence (admitted by the club). The camp relied on some fairly extreme ideology and pseudo science (refer Mankind Project) and was poorly executed. Amon Woulfe was a proponent of the Mankind Project and he drove the camp with many of those concepts.

All this aside, in my opinion it was what happened after the camp that was the most destructive. It caused divisions within the club, between player factions and also between players and admin. This happened because there was a lack of empathy from blokes like Burton (and maybe Pyke) towards those who had taken elements of the camp negatively. Don't forget, the coaching staff and football department had formed a view (perhaps correctly) that the playing group were mentally weak. Hence, in their minds, the need for something like the camp. It's fairly clear that they would have seen negative reactions to the camp as an extension of this weakness. I don't think it's a coincidence that those who arranged the camp (Burton, Pyke) were not around during the Walsh tragedy.

Players concerns were dismissed by admin, and player factions formed behind those who loved it (Tex, Sloane, DT etc) and those who didn't. What resulted was a fractured club. It took a clean out of pretty much everyone involved - admin, coaches and many players - for the club to have enough clean air to refresh and reset.

There's no doubt that journos like McClure sensationalized the camp. I think only Caro was fairly objective in her reporting, once sh*t hit the fan. There's no doubt, however, that the camp was a severe "miss" by the club. Had the people in charge done their due diligence, it's likely CM wouldn't have been engaged to run it. Had the people in charge not doubled down after it by dismissing players concerns, they may have avoided the fallout.

It doesn't matter that no laws were broken. It was a poorly executed camp founded in questionable ideology that resulted in a broken club.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also think we're letting hindsight rule in how CM and others were being viewed in the footy industry in 2017.

This is from Inside Football magazine - my memory is there were similar articles in the Age also.

The game in the brain

Why Richmond and Adelaide are winning the contest ‘above the shoulders’.

www.sen.com.au

 

[Mego Red]

I didn’t think you could defame a business/organization?

You can, but they can't sue for damages, I don't think.

I imagine Amon Woulfe would be suing in this case.

 

[feenix67]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also think we're letting hindsight rule in how CM and others were being viewed in the footy industry in 2017.

This is from Inside Football magazine - my memory is there were similar articles in the Age also.

The game in the brain

Why Richmond and Adelaide are winning the contest ‘above the shoulders’.

www.sen.com.au

Oh for sure, sporting clubs have always been looking for the holy grail in mental edge. Leading Teams was the first successful organisation in that space in the AFL.

The thing is though, had the club looked into the proposed program of the camp, it would have realised that it wasn't really an extension of the team based stuff CM had been doing at the club. If memory serves correctly, CM don't do camps per se. It was Woulfe who arranged the camp I believe, and it was based on camps he ran based around the Mankind Project.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Fairly on the money, except that if the club had handled the GF fallout better, things may have held together.

People forget, we already had CM engaged for much of that season. The power stance was a Tex thing that came out of CM sessions. They had already had an influence, because we had replaced the Leading Teams program with CM that year.

CM, until the camp, was that wanky mob you tolerate at work because the boss thinks it's a good idea. Some buy in, most don't. If their involvement had stayed at that, it would have been nothing more than a consultancy spend that was largely ineffective. In fact, David Leckie actually had some runs on the board in this regard, with his previous consultancy. Most of the credits on the CM promo material appear to relate to Leckie's prior work it seems.

The problem is, they engaged this mob to run a camp and didn't do their due diligence (admitted by the club). The camp relied on some fairly extreme ideology and pseudo science (refer Mankind Project) and was poorly executed. Amon Woulfe was a proponent of the Mankind Project and he drove the camp with many of those concepts.

All this aside, in my opinion it was what happened after the camp that was the most destructive. It caused divisions within the club, between player factions and also between players and admin. This happened because there was a lack of empathy from blokes like Burton (and maybe Pyke) towards those who had taken elements of the camp negatively. Don't forget, the coaching staff and football department had formed a view (perhaps correctly) that the playing group were mentally weak. Hence, in their minds, the need for something like the camp. It's fairly clear that they would have seen negative reactions to the camp as an extension of this weakness. I don't think it's a coincidence that those who arranged the camp (Burton, Pyke) were not around during the Walsh tragedy.

Players concerns were dismissed by admin, and player factions formed behind those who loved it (Tex, Sloane, DT etc) and those who didn't. What resulted was a fractured club. It took a clean out of pretty much everyone involved - admin, coaches and many players - for the club to have enough clean air to refresh and reset.

There's no doubt that journos like McClure sensationalized the camp. I think only Caro was fairly objective in her reporting, once sh*t hit the fan. There's no doubt, however, that the camp was a severe "miss" by the club. Had the people in charge done their due diligence, it's likely CM wouldn't have been engaged to run it. Had the people in charge not doubled down after it by dismissing players concerns, they may have avoided the fallout.

It doesn't matter that no laws were broken. It was a poorly executed camp founded in questionable ideology that resulted in a broken club.

A very well thought out post & imo you have nailed it!

 

[Slippery Pete]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I also think we're letting hindsight rule in how CM and others were being viewed in the footy industry in 2017.

This is from Inside Football magazine - my memory is there were similar articles in the Age also.

The game in the brain

Why Richmond and Adelaide are winning the contest ‘above the shoulders’.

www.sen.com.au

Lol.

Leddie is adamant that the Grand Final loss will be a powerful motivator for the Crows players, as it so often is for defeated teams (particularly those with a sense of injustice).

“It’s going to be burning really strongly,” Leddie said.

“When we were working with the Rabbitohs and they won it, they fell off the cliff the next year because it’s then a different equation in the mind,” Leddie said.

“That falling off the cliff often happens — look at the Western Bulldogs.

“But we’re not going to have trouble around motivation this year with the Crows.”

 

[Mego Red]

Oh for sure, sporting clubs have always been looking for the holy grail in mental edge. Leading Teams was the first successful organisation in that space in the AFL.

The thing is though, had the club looked into the proposed program of the camp, it would have realised that it wasn't really an extension of the team based stuff CM had been doing at the club. If memory serves correctly, CM don't do camps per se. It was Woulfe who arranged the camp I believe, and it was based on camps he ran based around the Mankind Project.

Yeah, you can't deny the club made a massive error.

Defining what the players really needed was the first part, and whether the camp was actually going to deliver what you're requiring was the other.

 

[Mego Red]

Lol.

Leddie is adamant that the Grand Final loss will be a powerful motivator for the Crows players, as it so often is for defeated teams (particularly those with a sense of injustice).

“It’s going to be burning really strongly,” Leddie said.

“When we were working with the Rabbitohs and they won it, they fell off the cliff the next year because it’s then a different equation in the mind,” Leddie said.

“That falling off the cliff often happens — look at the Western Bulldogs.

“But we’re not going to have trouble around motivation this year with the Crows.”

Yeah, it's kind of amazing to read in hindsight. This is December 2017, and they must have been planning the camp as this was bring written ...

 

[John Who]

So what particular facts did they claim that have been proven to be false?

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. The question should be "what particular facts did they claim prove a camp debacle/disaster?"

What was the issue that confirmed such a disaster from a 3 day event? Bearing in mind the issue they were suggesting was a very serious one, relating to emotional trauma in the players. This wasn't them saying "the camp was a joke, most found it unappealing". The tone in which they presented in writing and in verbal, was of a critical nature. So what was the critical fact(s)?

And I want to know facts. Not any other internal dialogues or opinions.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. The question should be "what particular facts did they claim prove a camp debacle/disaster?"

What was the issue that confirmed such a disaster from a 3 day event? Bearing in mind the issue they were suugesting is a very serious one, relating to emotional trauma in the players. This wasn't them saying "the camp was a joke, most found it unappealing". The tone in which they presented in writing and in verbal, was of a critical nature. So what was the critical fact(s)?

And I want to know facts. Not any other internal dialogues or opinions.

The critical fact is were there any facts claimed by the journalists that were false?

I can't recall any...

They can't just sue for damaged reputation because it was claimed the camp was a disaster... which it clearly was!

 

[John Who]

Yeah, it's kind of amazing to read in hindsight. This is December 2017, and they must have been planning the camp as this was bring written ...

I agree hindsight is so easy to pin someone to. You can't blame them for trying to put a positive spin though, because that's the business they're in - putting things into a positive spin.

 

[John Who]

The critical fact is were there any facts claimed by the journalists that were false?

I can't recall any...

They can't just sue for damaged reputation because it was claimed the camp was a disaster... which it clearly was!

As a consumer of news, I want to hear actual facts that relates to the article of the news.
What fact caused the disaster?

You're stating a false conclusion - "the season was a disaster, so therefore the camp news was the truth." I can think of plenty other reasons why 2018 was such a disaster.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

As a consumer of news, I want to hear actual facts that relates to the article of the news.
What fact caused the disaster?

You're stating a false conclusion - "the season was a disaster, so therefore the camp news was the truth." I can think of plenty other reasons why 2018 was such a disaster.

The camp was an unmitigated disaster as the club itself has admitted.

You can continue to claim this is false but I cannot help your delusion.

 

[John Who]

The camp was an unmitigated disaster as the club itself has admitted.

You can continue to claim this is false but I cannot help your delusion.

You can't help my delusion? What am I delusional about relating to McClure's wild claims? The club admits it could have been done better, but did not admit the camp was a disaster. You're adding false truth, and not seeking the truth.

 

[Mego Red]

The critical fact is were there any facts claimed by the journalists that were false?

I can't recall any...

They can't just sue for damaged reputation because it was claimed the camp was a disaster... which it clearly was!

That's not how defamation works.

McClure will have to prove that ANYTHING claimed or inferred by the article can be proven to be true.

There was a LOT that a reader would have inferred from the article's insinuations.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

You can't help my delusion? What am I delusional about relating to McClure's wild claims? The club admits it could have been done better, but did not admit the camp was a disaster. You're adding false truth, and not seeking the truth.

There is nothing false about claiming the camp was an unmitigated disaster. It destroyed our premiership window which upset me as a supporter.

I really couldn't give a toss about the media as I ignore them most of the time. As for whether they claimed anything they can be sued for, I can't recall & nor do I care. Of you do, then how about you do your own homework & read all the articles on the camp.

 

[Mego Red]

The camp was an unmitigated disaster as the club itself has admitted.

You can continue to claim this is false but I cannot help your delusion.

It's strange how passionate you are on this.

No one claims that the camp was a success.

I think it's reasonable to also hold the view that it wasn't the explosive debacle that McClure claimed either.

It was a *up, which in a different circumstance a footy club would have just shrugged off and moved on from.

McClure was trying to build his reputation on an expose, and that may prove to be very naive considering Australia's defamation laws

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

It's strange how passionate you are on this.

No one claims that the camp was a success.

I think it's reasonable to also hold the view that it wasn't the explosive debacle that McClure claimed either.

It was a fu**up, which in a different circumstance a footy club would have just shrugged off and moved on from.

McClure was trying to build his reputation on an expose, and that may prove to be very naive considering Australia's defamation laws

Anyone who wants success for our club should be annoyed that the camp fractured our playing group & coaches... otherwise you are just accepting that it is ok for our club to impode.

Again you are more concerned by thr media than the performance of our club.

 

[John Who]

There is nothing false about claiming the camp was an unmitigated disaster. It destroyed our premiership window which upset me as a supporter.

I really couldn't give a toss about the media as I ignore them most of the time. As for whether they claimed anything they can be sued for, I can't recall & nor do I care. Of you do, then how about you do your own homework & read all the articles on the camp.

That's rubbish. You're practically saying any reporter can talk s**t on your club, and if we end up bottom 4 again, then it must be all true.
You choose to not listen to the reporters, yet happy to gobble up all their s**t talking on your club?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

That's rubbish. You're practically saying any reporter can talk sh*t on your club, and if we end up bottom 4 again, then it must be all true.
You choose to not listen to the reporters, yet happy to gobble up all their sh*t talking on your club?

Which bit of i choose to ignore what most of the media say don't you understand?

You are the one who lets the sensationalist media get under your skin.

 

[1970crow]

The emotion we rode from July 2015 to that GF was heavy. The players couldn't get it done on the day but the total misread of the players' mental state after the GF loss by the football department was unforgivable.

What followed were three glaring mistakes:

1. Coaches/football department took no blame. Put it all on the players.
2. Coaches and leadership decided not to digest/review the loss immediately, instead letting it fester over the break.
3. The way the camp was run in relation to the players' mental state.

Trust between players and coaches evaporated and couldn't be retrieved to the level required. Cliques and tiers within the playing group became more obvious. Ultimately dysfunctional.

The cliques within the list had been mentioned a couple of years earlier. It's no surprise that pressure blew them apart. Even the apparent solution separated the players into groups. Neil's categorising players into the lesser backbone and crusher groups never left us, so is it any wonder that the players naturally embraced that culture among themselves.

Like all the other 'isolated' cockups that are routinely made, the regular reference to this multi-speed culture was swatted away as an individual's personal axe to grind. It's amazing how so many isolated pieces of evidence that raise their head can actually speak to a much larger problem existing under the surface.

 

[John Who]

Which bit of i choose to ignore what most of the media say don't you understand?

You are the one who lets the sensationalist media get under your skin.

Because they are bashing on my club that I barrack for, unashamedly with a pinch of floggery.
As a fan, I have every right to know of the facts of their insinuation.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Because they are bashing on my club that I barrack for, unashamedly with a pinch of floggery.
As a fan, I have every right to know of the facts of their insinuation.

Yet none of this would have happened if the club were not incompetent in running the camp.

It's the club which is not keen to let you know the facts.

Your anger is directed at the wrong people!

 

[1970crow]

My memory is words like "explosive" and "debacle" were used a lot more than "allegedly".

I think CM will be able to prove the commercial distress that has been caused on them by the articles, which were inflammatory at best and slanderous (on 5AA and other media) and defamatory at worst.

In any event - there's not much point us 5c legal experts arguing it. I think it's now a matter for the courts.

There was lots of s**t spoken by the entire industry, but the Wilson and McLure articles that they've focussed on, from memory, contained none of that stuff. People here seem to be conflating the general rubbish with the actual action that's been suggested. Those 2 aren't responsible for the bullshit that the rest of the talking heads sprouted. You even referring to AA evidences the misunderstanding around this.

 

[John Who]

Yet none of this would have happened if the club were not incompetent in running the camp.

Your anger is directed at the wrong people!

Let's be clear on this. I'm not denying there was a club implosion. I don't think anyone on here is denying it?

I'm only here on this thread, to point out that MClure/Wilson needs to give us fans the facts, and not the probables. That isn't the role of a journalist.
Also, what they're inciting is mere gossip and nothing to do with actual facts.

 

[1970crow]

Knowing what we know now

Do you think there really was a Window?

Nearly everyone that could have a career best year had one. The team wasn't young, it wasn't regenerating.

With hindsight, how many players knew they'd sh*t the bed and for most, it was their last chance and they likely knew it

We weren't that old though. None of our key players were at cliff drop off age. Retired since then are Otto Dougie, Sauce and Mackay. Only Sauce a key of those and he didn't fall off a cliff until 2019 and even then believed he had 2 more in him. Most would have thought they had a least 2-3 of their best footy ahead of them.