Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[GWT6]

Are you stupid mate?

The Mitchell story is well documented BY EVERYONE INVOLVED. It simply did not happen as you ferociously claim. Did not happen. Get it?

Lewis wanted 3 years. Hawthorn does not offer more than one year deals to players over 30. This is not conjecture. This is fact. It goes back to Nick Holland being paid big money on a long deal and barely being able to get on the park. What you are asserting with Lewis did not happen. He was offered a year, wanted three and was traded to club willing to give it to him. Get it?

Hodge's situation is a bit more clouded. It may well have happened exactly as you suggested. But given you have missed the mark on the other two by the length of the Hume Freeway, I'd very much doubt it.

Ok, answer the questions;

(1) Did Jordan Lewis get called into Clarksons office, and he thought he was being made captain, but was told that he should look at moving to another club?

(2) Was it suggested to Mitchell that he should look at opportunities with another club if they are there?

Stop spinning, and answer the question rather than thinking you are part of the team defending your teammates.

 

[GWT6]

In common parlance the term equates to "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one", or "make as few assumptions as possible", although the philosophical version is a fair bit more complicated than that, and it is the layperson version most people are referring to when they use the term. Clearly I was referring to the common understanding, and it made complete sense in the context. "Media lies" is way simpler than trying to understand the complex reasons why we'd shop around a contracted player who doesn't want to go, and has a history of having hissy fits when shopped around. "media lies" is probably way simpler than any other competing hypothesis. Of course I'm sure you understood all of that, although your lack of understanding of the nuances of Hawthorn's previous trading history makes we wonder.

Haha - that's a lot of words to try and recover. Love the use of the words "parlance" "hypothesis" and "philosophical". Yep, you are smart.

 

[hk89]

Haha - that's a lot of words to try and recover. Love the use of the words "parlance" "hypothesis" and "philosophical". Yep, you are smart.

And you're not, but that's ok too.

 

[La Dispute]

You read Sam Mitchell's autobiography?

No?

I suggest you do. Then come back here and apologise.

I read it a couple of years ago, and it was probably one of the more interesting footy autobiographies I've got through. Contrast it with someone like Chris Judd, who was preternaturally good at football, had a pretty comfortable career and was always going to succeed with his athletic gifts and self-determination.

Would make me cautious about his prospects as a head coach though. Was pretty stubborn as a player. Opinionated, very staunch in the way he saw things.

Those aspects can be corrected over time, but there are far more hurdles as a senior coach. You aren't just dealing with a couple of teammates who might rub you the wrong way, you've got to be respectful of the sensibilities of an entire squad.

Interesting to see how he goes.

 

[GWT6]

And you're not, but that's ok too.

Yep, if only I could grab my thesaurus to jump on an internet forum to try and prove that I know big words, after being absolutely owned from totally misunderstanding a term that I thought would make me look smart. I want to be you.

 

[GWT6]

I read it a couple of years ago, and it was probably one of the more interesting footy autobiographies I've got through. Contrast it with someone like Chris Judd, who was preternaturally good at football, had a pretty comfortable career and was always going to succeed with his athletic gifts and self-determination.

Would make me cautious about his prospects as a head coach though. Was pretty stubborn as a player. Opinionated, very staunch in the way he saw things.

Those aspects can be corrected over time, but there are far more hurdles as a senior coach. You aren't just dealing with a couple of teammates who might rub you the wrong way, you've got to be respectful of the sensibilities of an entire squad.

Interesting to see how he goes.

The smartest thing he did was go and be an assistant coach away from the club for a couple of years, maybe learned from Voss and Buckly's mistakes.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Ok, answer the questions;

(1) Did Jordan Lewis get called into Clarksons office, and he thought he was being made captain, but was told that he should look at moving to another club?

(2) Was it suggested to Mitchell that he should look at opportunities with another club if they are there?

Stop spinning, and answer the question rather than thinking you are part of the team defending your teammates.

1) I have no idea what the conversation was regarding the captaincy. Nor do you. What is known is that Lewis wanted a 3 year contract. I have been over this with you. Are your eyes pained on or are you incapable of clear thought? HAWTHORN DOES NOT OFFER MORE THAN ONE YEAR DEALS TO PLAYERS OVER 30. Get that through your rather thick scone mate because everything beyond that from Lewis's perspective is moot. He wanted 3 years. We were not giving it to him. Hence he looked at other options and found one. Good for him but it simply did not happen as you suggest.

2) That is not what was suggested at all. Mitchell wanted to coach so he and Clarkson decided to explore this. It did not happen the way you'd like to think or the way you'd have us all believe. Clarkson came to Mitchell after speaking with Simpson with the West Coast option..."park or explore" he gave Mitchell the option. Mitchell spoke with his wife and they decided to explore it. If he had said "park" then he signs another year at Hawthorn. That is how it happened. You are fabricating another scenario to suit your narrative. As I assume you won't be reading Mitchell's autobiography, Google is your friend. Try it sometime. It will change your life.

As to the main conversation, Hawthorn is undergoing a rebuild. I doubt you'll find one Hawthorn supporter who couldn't see this coming or is unaccepting of the situation. We pretty much bossed this competition for a decade. This is our penance. We have plenty of DVD's in the collection that will remind us of why we are where we currently are.

What we won't cop though, are the feeble of mind who want to make it some sort of conspiracy that Hawthorn treats it's players like crap. That is the game you are playing and you are getting called out on your bullshit.

Over and out.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I read it a couple of years ago, and it was probably one of the more interesting footy autobiographies I've got through. Contrast it with someone like Chris Judd, who was preternaturally good at football, had a pretty comfortable career and was always going to succeed with his athletic gifts and self-determination.

Would make me cautious about his prospects as a head coach though. Was pretty stubborn as a player. Opinionated, very staunch in the way he saw things.

Those aspects can be corrected over time, but there are far more hurdles as a senior coach. You aren't just dealing with a couple of teammates who might rub you the wrong way, you've got to be respectful of the sensibilities of an entire squad.

Interesting to see how he goes.

Yes mate, I have my reservations as to his ability to be a senior coach. He'd have to step back from his pigheadedness but there is no doubt the football IQ is there. I've interviewed him a couple of times, he's incredibly intelligent but rather single-minded.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Who said they wouldn't have the conversation or be involved in trade period were appealing offers to present themselves?

You're making things up.

You said Melbourne weren't shopping for deals (post #7060). Not me.

All I did was point out that every club is shopping for deals. That is how trade period works.

 

[GWT6]

1) I have no idea what the conversation was regarding the captaincy. Nor do you. What is known is that Lewis wanted a 3 year contract. I have been over this with you. Are your eyes pained on or are you incapable of clear thought? HAWTHORN DOES NOT OFFER MORE THAN ONE YEAR DEALS TO PLAYERS OVER 30. Get that through your rather thick scone mate because everything beyond that from Lewis's perspective is moot. He wanted 3 years. We were not giving it to him. Hence he looked at other options and found one. Good for him but it simply did not happen as you suggest.

2) That is not what was suggested at all. Mitchell wanted to coach so he and Clarkson decided to explore this. It did not happen the way you'd like to think or the way you'd have us all believe. Clarkson came to Mitchell after speaking with Simpson with the West Coast option..."park or explore" he gave Mitchell the option. Mitchell spoke with his wife and they decided to explore it. If he had said "park" then he signs another year at Hawthorn. That is how it happened. You are fabricating another scenario to suit your narrative. As I assume you won't be reading Mitchell's autobiography, Google is your friend. Try it sometime. It will change your life.

As to the main conversation, Hawthorn is undergoing a rebuild. I doubt you'll find one Hawthorn supporter who couldn't see this coming or is unaccepting of the situation. We pretty much bossed this competition for a decade. This is our penance. We have plenty of DVD's in the collection that will remind us of why we are where we currently are.

What we won't cop though, are the feeble of mind who want to make it some sort of conspiracy that Hawthorn treats it's players like crap. That is the game you are playing and you are getting called out on your bullshit.

Over and out.

Ok, so you're saying Lewis lied?

Nothing that I have written is controversial, it happened. What you are trying to do is spin it, and I'm really struggling to understand why you would bother to push so hard to try and re-write history on an anonymous football forum.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Yep, if only I could grab my thesaurus to jump on an internet forum to try and prove that I know big words, after being absolutely owned from totally misunderstanding a term that I thought would make me look smart. I want to be you.

You struggle understanding small words. I'd stay away from the big ones if I was you.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Ok, so you're saying Lewis lied?

I'm not making any claims about what Lewis did or didn't say regarding the captaincy. Nice try though.

He was never going to get a three year deal. I have explained why twice. You seem a tad slow.

 

[owen87]

You said Melbourne weren't shopping for deals (post #7060). Not me.

All I did was point out that every club is shopping for deals. That is how trade period works.

I said that Hawthorn is very clearly out shopping for deals, or as you called it "aggressively working the floor".

Melbourne might not be aggressively working the floor

So yeah, you're trying to argue something that you yourself have disagreed with.

 

[GWT6]

I'm not making any claims about what Lewis did or didn't say regarding the captaincy. Nice try though.

He was never going to get a three year deal. I have explained why twice. You seem a tad slow.

You keep trying to push this made-up crap. He didn't leave because he wanted a three-year deal - he left because they told him he wasn't wanted. That's not even up for debate. I find it quite strange that you keep coming back with this. Are you unhinged or just trolling?

 

[hk89]

I think class is pretty hard to quantify. Mitchell is a classy player, but doesn't have the same skillset as someone like Wingard. On balance though if I was going to remove one from the Hawthorn team it'd be Wingard because Mitchell's cumulative impact on a game of footy is greater.

Yup, I think that's a fair enough assessment. However I do think that together Worpel, JOM and Mitchell are too similar, and can all to an extent play the inside accumulator role (Unfortunately Worpel rarely seems to be able to play well in the same side as Mitchell). Mitchell is very clearly the best at it of the 3, so I can see why you'd say "why get rid of him?", and it would be a hard choice, but we are losing a sorely needed point of difference if Wingard goes, and nobody else in the side is close to providing what he does.

You're right we could keep Mitchell who is arguably the best in the competition at what he is good at, and hope to find a Wingard replacement in the draft, but that is also easier said than done, we already have a Wingard, and draft picks are uncertain (perhaps even more uncertain for his type - I'd guess purely inside mids are safer picks in the draft, I think the more outside you are, the harder it is to be sure you'll make it).

I agree it is an interesting thought experiment to wonder which of the 3 we'd be best to trade. Personally I'd trade JOM. Wingard hasn't shown it consistently, but his best is more elite than JOM's best. Mitchell is elite at what he does best, and that leaves JOM as the most expendable. We also have some younger mostly untried mids who are more likely to be JOM replacements than Wingard replacements who are already on the list.

Filling gaps isn't something I think Hawthorn should be focusing too heavily on at this stage of their development.

Agreed, or at least in terms of doing it via trade/free agency. Focus should be on hitting the picks we have as well as we can for the next 2 drafts, and after that we can assess again where we are at. Unfortunately we'll have missed the high trade value on the 3 current players most touted as "on the table", but that's a decision they seem to have at least partly made themselves. Personally I see it as a good sign that players are not putting their hands up to be traded to flag-contention clubs, shows we are doing something right, and that perhaps the group themselves see the potential of a relatively quick bounce. Doing well in free agency (or trade of contracted players) is difficult when you're languishing at the bottom, so starting to fill gaps via that avenue will be easier in 3 years if we nail the next couple of drafts.

I'd argue that Carlton has done a better job of this recently than us, because while not playing finals, they've had enough young talent brought in via the draft to convince some players that finals are not far off, and so worth considering Carlton as a new home. We've struggled to convince anyone of note that we've turned the corner, and that isn't likely to change overnight (despite hitting the draft for what will likely be the third year in a row after this year).

It's all academic, because no quality senior players are going to leave, but it would have been an interesting situation. It's certainly been a while since Hawthorn has been fishing for an additional first round pick.

Stuff can still happen, but it does seem increasingly unlikely at this point.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I said that Hawthorn is very clearly out shopping for deals, or as you called it "aggressively working the floor".



So yeah, you're trying to argue something that you yourself have disagreed with.

Are you simple too? Like the other goose in here dribbling all over himself?

You know there is more than one way to skin a cat, surely you do?

Just because Melbourne aren't as aggressive as Hawthorn it doesn't mean they are not wheeling and dealing.

FFS, you said "no they aren't" when I said that even Melbourne are looking at options. That was a double-down after you claimed that Melbourne weren't looking to trade players. Literally twice you said Melbourne were not looking for deals in trade week. Now you agree that they are.

Just because other clubs are more assertively doing so does not mean that Melbourne is inactive.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

You keep trying to push this made-up crap. He didn't leave because he wanted a three-year deal - he left because they told him he wasn't wanted. That's not even up for debate. I find it quite strange that you keep coming back with this. Are you unhinged or just trolling?

He was offered a year you tit. He wanted three. FFS, I'll even help you given you have no idea how to search for this stuff yourself.

AFL: Former Hawk Jordan Lewis has no regrets about moving on with Melbourne

Hawk turned Demon Jordan Lewis has no bitterness about the way he exited his old club, saying the move offered him the chance to secure his future and tackle a new challenge.

www.theage.com.au

 

[GWT6]

He was offered a year you tit. He wanted three.

Was that before or after he was called into Clarkson's office and told to find another club?

 

[hk89]

You've carried the Hawk flag with this thread hk89!
The turnaround. Realistically how long do you think this turnaround will take for Hawthorn to be top 4 and competing for a flag again

I think if we took a short term view (much like Saints did with their trades over recent seasons), we could probably make finals in a year or 2 given how many of the top 10 sides we did ok against (and yes our worst was still deplorable).

However I think targeting that would be a mistake, as I don't think we can make top 4 without hitting the draft for another couple of years. The cattle are just not there for that. So assuming we absolutely nail the draft this year and next year, if everything else goes right, and we keep our older players on the park long enough, probably 4 years isn't completely out of the question. As I say, that needs a lot to go right, and I could understand if others were dubious.

If anything I think we are ahead of Saints on our journey right now. Saints topped up recently, and it hasn't worked, but it is very difficult to change tact quickly once you've invested in a strategy (something Hawthorn fans can tell you about post 2016). I can see Saints struggle to make their current gambles work for another couple of years, and then by the time they realise it can't we'll have developed past them. Basically rebuilding is really hard work, which is why a team should never do it until they've exhaust all other avenues. We are there now, and the best Hawthorn fans can hope is that we are one of the rare successful rebuilds instead of this being the first of several failures, which seems to be more the norm once you find yourself at this end of the ladder.

 

[hk89]

Are you unhinged or just trolling?

I find your lack of self-insight amsuing.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Was that before or after he was called into Clarkson's office and told to find another club?

Logic not your strong suit champ?

I'm sure Lewis was told he wasn't wanted and was then offered a one year deal straight afterwards.

The sooner school goes back the better.

 

[hk89]

Yep, if only I could grab my thesaurus to jump on an internet forum to try and prove that I know big words, after being absolutely owned from totally misunderstanding a term that I thought would make me look smart.

So you still don't understand the common usage of Occam's razor? That's ok, I wouldn't expect you to. If you'd like to prove otherwise, why don't you tell me how I misunderstood the term? I'm looking forward to being educated.

 

[owen87]

Are you simple too? Like the other goose in here dribbling all over himself?

You know there is more than one way to skin a cat, surely you do?

Just because Melbourne aren't as aggressive as Hawthorn it doesn't mean they are not wheeling and dealing.

FFS, you said "no they aren't" when I said that even Melbourne are looking at options. That was a double-down after you claimed that Melbourne weren't looking to trade players. Literally twice you said Melbourne were not looking for deals in trade week. Now you agree that they are.

Just because other clubs are more assertively doing so does not mean that Melbourne is inactive.

I said Melbourne aren't looking for deals. I never said they wouldn't listen to calls, you've made that up. I never said they were being inactive, you've made that up.

Hawthorn appear to be actively contacting clubs, or "aggressively working the floor".

So either you've completely misread, and therefore misunderstood, what I've written, or you're arguing the exact same thing.

Hawthorn appear to be pursuing means to improve their draft hand, by "aggressively working the floor", and offering up some of their higher value senior players in trade discussions, which is why the names of literally every single one of their higher value senior players has been floating around in the media the last week.

That's very different to a Melbourne largely sitting back and not doing a whole lot, they're certainly not aggressively working the floor, as you yourself said.

So really, are you just arguing to be argumentative at this point? Do you think Hawthorn aren't "aggressively working the floor"? Do you think Melbourne are "aggressively working the floor"?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I said Melbourne aren't looking for deals. I never said they wouldn't listen to calls, you've made that up. I never said they were being inactive, you've made that up.

Hawthorn appear to be actively contacting clubs, or "aggressively working the floor".

So either you've completely misread, and therefore misunderstood, what I've written, or you're arguing the exact same thing.

Hawthorn appear to be pursuing means to improve their draft hand, by "aggressively working the floor", and offering up some of their higher value senior players in trade discussions, which is why the names of literally every single one of their higher value senior players has been floating around in the media the last week.

That's very different to a Melbourne largely sitting back and not doing a whole lot, they're certainly not aggressively working the floor, as you yourself said.

So really, are you just arguing to be argumentative at this point? Do you think Hawthorn aren't "aggressively working the floor"? Do you think Melbourne are "aggressively working the floor"?

Of course Melbourne are looking for deals. They've already traded some picks. Only a twit thinks that Melbourne have gone in with the mindset that all their players are off limits. If they have, then their time at the top will be very short.

I repeat, you are the one who said Melbourne are not looking for deals. And you did it twice.

Hilarious.

 

[GWT6]

Logic not your strong suit champ?

I'm sure Lewis was told he wasn't wanted and was then offered a one year deal straight afterwards.

The sooner school goes back the better.

“It was the Wednesday after (the best and fairest) I got a text message from Clarko saying, ‘Hey, are you around this afternoon for a chat?’” Lewis said.

“And automatically you go for the negatives. You know (you ask) ‘what could it be?’

“I’m not that sort of person to think ‘oh he’s coming around to give me a pat on the back and say that you’re captain next year’. That’s not how I think.

“I’ve been involved with football clubs for so long now that you understand when he (the coach) wants to come around to your house, it’s not for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake.”

Lewis was unsure why but his negative thoughts — which proved correct — headed towards a possible trade.

“I don’t know why I thought this, but it was potentially going somewhere else, and I spent all day (before Clarkson arrived) going through certain scenarios,” he said.

“(Like) ‘oh gee who do I know from other clubs?’ if that happens to be the case, so I’d played it over in my head for a good five or six hours.

“So when he came around that was exactly the conversation we had.”

.....
.....
...

After Mitchell announced he was joining the Eagles, the Hawks tried to sway Lewis to stay.

“... we also gave Hawthorn the chance to extend my contract for another year but then they still couldn’t for whatever reason,” he said.

“But I think once Mitch left, I probably didn’t feel as guilty if I was to leave as well.

“It wasn’t as if I was opting out of a contract, I never went to the club — they came to me — so that’s sort of how I justified it to myself.”