Society/Culture The Gender Pay Gap

[Gralin]

I don't agree with this idea that we've been living in a meritocracy up until the current diversity push. We've had 'jobs for the boys' for a long time, where who you know matters more than what you know in a lot of industries. That's why you end up with organisations that look homogenous, because they keep employing staff like look like the rest of the organisation.

Yeah meritocracy is made up, great excuse for those that benefit to maintain their privilege though

we used to refuse to hire women for certain jobs at my work based on "physical requirements and safety" even though we had guys that were middle aged, short and with heart problems in those roles who physically had problems doing some of the work

they were seen as fine by the managers who were hiring

at that point we had no women in management and no women in technical roles, only admin

we've got multiple women in the teams now in all sorts of roles and the company got there by setting targets which certainly pissed of a few blokes that felt they missed out on a job because of it, they'll never believe they got beaten by a better candidate if that person isn't a guy

If the pendulum has swung too far the other way (and I'm not sure I agree that it has in reality, much as certain sources will tell you it has) then that doesn't mean what came before was better. If you were white and male it just meant you were the one most likely to benefit from it.

and that is the rub isn't it, that for some they see it as worse for them so therefore bad overall

like the guys above that whinge about a woman getting a job they wanted

This hasn't really been accurate for decades, and won't change anytime soon. Amazon is noted for having horrendous working conditions yet tens of thousands of people work there because they don't really have any other choice.

yeah and they're trying to make it so people have less choice by buying up all the housing in towns so they can do things like discount rent for employees as justification for paying them less

Australia enjoys some of the best working conditions on the planet because of regulation and oversight. This means you get ~ 4 weeks a year of annual leave. This means you get sick leave. This means employers have to maintain the equipment they ask you to use. This means being paid a living wage.

this is true for less and less of us every year unfortunately with the rise of casual work
its why there have been pushes to change laws to fix that loophole but companies put a lot of time and money into staying ahead of that stuff where they can't block the legislation to begin with

The idea that the free market is the solution to everything isn't reality. It has some positives, but plenty of negatives. The regulation is intended to limit the negatives whilst still encouraging the positives.

its the solution to everything from the perspective of those that will profit most

Why?

If there was some kind of global regulation that meant every worker in the world enjoyed the same minimum standards as Australian workers do, would that be a bad thing?

Sure fast fashion might disappear if they can't make your t-shirts in sweatshops, but again, would that be a bad thing? The world certainly did OK for a long time without any of those things.



The bolded is a big problem. No requirement for minimum wages or working conditions (that blasted red tape) means businesses overseas exploit the hell out of desperate people, who never really get to enjoy any kind of reasonable standard of living for their labour.

yep and they constantly try and push for that to come here

US has terrible working conditions, I work for a US based company and the announcement they send out globally about changes to work conditions with the little asterix about *based on local laws and regulations has me very happy to be here, though we're not the best

EU is generally much better for workers rights than here but we're still above many places

 

[Chief]

What's your comment, carloss ?

You agree? Disagree?

 

[RedStarUncle]

Manufacturing has to be done overseas at this point, partly because we have too much regulation. If we made things here it'd cost 5x more. Yes that's because of slave labour overseas but also the amount of BS red tape business here needs to cover which drives prices up. We are our own worst enemy in that regard. A car costs way more here even when we import cheaply from overseas, why? Taxed up the arse/fees etc, government regulation is good within reason*

Are there specific regulations you can point to that Australian manufacturing businesses are losing time or money to that you would do away with?

What would be the consequences of removing those obligations from businesses, and would you be happy to live with them?

Not having a go just genuine questions. It always gets thrown out as a truism, but I'm not convinced it's actually that true at all. Yes manufacturing costs in Australia are high... but I think primarily that's just because the cost of materials, transport, and wages are high. And wages are just high because the cost of living is high. This is not "red tape BS" this is just the fact of the market we have. And ultimately, there is still plenty of competitive manufacturing in Australia and even more-so in many other countries around the world that have even more regulation than we do.

 

[burge13]

Are there specific regulations you can point to that Australian manufacturing businesses are losing time or money to that you would do away with?

What would be the consequences of removing those obligations from businesses, and would you be happy to live with them?

Not having a go just genuine questions. It always gets thrown out as a truism, but I'm not convinced it's actually that true at all. Yes manufacturing costs in Australia are high... but I think primarily that's just because the cost of materials, transport, and wages are high. And wages are just high because the cost of living is high. This is not "red tape BS" this is just the fact of the market we have. And ultimately, there is still plenty of competitive manufacturing in Australia and even more-so in many other countries around the world that have even more regulation than we do.

I'm not in manufacturing to answer but in general for business here just having a business name costs 1000's a year to register. Pointless costs get passed onto consumer. Electricity is expensive, transport costs heaps here in part because half the cost of petrol is tax and so on

bold - agree. So if it's cheaper to import, why not do it? Hence manufacturing being very unlikely to come back in any meaningful sense and more will be offshored

 

[RedStarUncle]

I'm not in manufacturing to answer but in general for business here just having a business name costs 1000's a year to register. Pointless costs get passed onto consumer. Electricity is expensive, transport costs heaps here in part because half the cost of petrol is tax and so on

bold - agree. So if it's cheaper to import, why not do it? Hence manufacturing being very unlikely to come back in any meaningful sense and more will be offshored

A relatively small fee on registering a business name might hurt a Mum and Dad backyard operation but isn't going to be industry-changing across the country.

Everything else mentioned is just cost and tax. There's another debate as to whether governments can do more to help reduce those costs to make manufacturing more economical. But it's not "red tape".


The comment that "red tape" is the problem gets thrown around... and since we're talking about the Gender Pay Gap that often gets lumped in as the red tape sort of stuff that if only we got rid of it we could be a manufacturing powerhouse. Which of course is just nonsense because it's typically a very small and undemanding requirement of business (from what I've seen) that serves a positive purpose and has a combined negligible effect on most businesses' bottom lines.

 

[Chief]

just having a business name costs 1000's a year to register.

This has not been my experience. Can you break down those costs?

 

[Carn The Berries]

My overall point is that you can't just take a broad statistic and run with it to push some sort of narrative, it requires deeper investigation.

Biology would be a factor in the gender pay gap, blokes in general are bigger and stronger and will do harder jobs in terms of labour more often, and they often pay well.

And I think socio-economic factors are more of a reason for higher incarceration rates for people of colour. More non whites are poor I believe (don't know the stats) and that group would be more represented in prisons I'm fairly sure.

I'm not saying there's no systemic racism or sexism but I feel other factors are more important in this issue.

I'm sure you'll take this post and interpret it in some sort of different way though, god bless ya!

The findings were that this has very little to do with the differences in wages between men and women. A large explanation is the percentage of women in senior corporate roles. This is where "gender pay gap" is a little misleading in it's description. As has already been raised here it's more of a "gender opportunity" inequality, that has existed for generations for a multitude of reasons.

Boiling it down to a simple "average" number and calling it gender pay gap doesn't do the root issues any justice in my opinion.

 

[faible]

This has not been my experience. Can you break down those costs?

Business name fees and payment options | ASIC

asic.gov.au

Business name fees​

Registering a business name​

The fees for registering a business name are:

• $42 for one year
• $98 for three years

 

[CM86]

My overall point is that you can't just take a broad statistic and run with it to push some sort of narrative, it requires deeper investigation.

Biology would be a factor in the gender pay gap, blokes in general are bigger and stronger and will do harder jobs in terms of labour more often, and they often pay well.

And I think socio-economic factors are more of a reason for higher incarceration rates for people of colour. More non whites are poor I believe (don't know the stats) and that group would be more represented in prisons I'm fairly sure.

I'm not saying there's no systemic racism or sexism but I feel other factors are more important in this issue.

I'm sure you'll take this post and interpret it in some sort of different way though, god bless ya!

Sorry. I really did misunderstand your point.
And I was embarrassingly arrogant about it.

Yes there is a pay gap, and it is clearly defined by gender. And while it isn't through obvious sexism, it's due to an established cultural norm that female dominant areas are valued less than male dominant areas.
Nursing vs roofing as an example.

With current OSHA standards there shouldn't be many jobs that a female isn't capable of. So physical size and strength shouldn't impact the pay gap.
Having said that, many occupations that are historically male still have an anti-female culture.
I'm sure you've noticed it in Engineering, either during Uni or in the workplace.
You yourself have made a point of complaining about female inclusion initiatives.

Having now understood your point, I do agree that there is much more to it than simply broad-brushing it as sexism.
But the sexism still needs to be addressed in order to remove the gap.

 

[the_interloper]

Sorry. I really did misunderstand your point.
And I was embarrassingly arrogant about it.

Yes there is a pay gap, and it is clearly defined by gender. And while it isn't through obvious sexism, it's due to an established cultural norm that female dominant areas are valued less than male dominant areas.
Nursing vs roofing as an example.

With current OSHA standards there shouldn't be many jobs that a female isn't capable of. So physical size and strength shouldn't impact the pay gap.
Having said that, many occupations that are historically male still have an anti-female culture.
I'm sure you've noticed it in Engineering, either during Uni or in the workplace.
You yourself have made a point of complaining about female inclusion initiatives.

Having now understood your point, I do agree that there is much more to it than simply broad-brushing it as sexism.
But the sexism still needs to be addressed in order to remove the gap.

Well there was probably 85%-15% male to female at uni and similar in the field as you'd expect. You'd have to ask another female whether the industry in engineering is "anti female" i guess, I do know a lot of women who were capable of studying engineering but almost none of them did. Seems they made a choice for some reason, guess they preferred other career paths.

 

[CM86]

Well there was probably 85%-15% male to female at uni and similar in the field as you'd expect. You'd have to ask another female whether the industry in engineering is "anti female" i guess, I do know a lot of women who were capable of studying engineering but almost none of them did. Seems they made a choice for some reason, guess they preferred other career paths.

But think back to your time at Uni, and your experience in the field.
Is there anything at all in any aspect of the culture or general consensus perspective that might have been reductive or negative towards female inclusion???

What's your honest view of females that have studied alongside you, or worked alongside you?
On a scale from 'diversity quota' to 'didn't even occur to me as a professional'. Where would you land?

 

[the_interloper]

But think back to your time at Uni, and your experience in the field.
Is there anything at all in any aspect of the culture or general consensus perspective that might have been reductive or negative towards female inclusion???

What's your honest view of females that have studied alongside you, or worked alongside you?
On a scale from 'diversity quota' to 'didn't even occur to me as a professional'. Where would you land?

To the first question you’d have to ask a female engineer.

To the second most of the female engineers I’ve worked with have been very capable, although there’s not been many at all of course.

Actually had a meeting with a female engineer with one of my colleagues last week. She’s very switched on and I told this to my colleague, he said “I’ll be the judge of that”. Turns out he agreed with me after the meeting!

 

[CM86]

To the first question you’d have to ask a female engineer.

To the second most of the female engineers I’ve worked with have been very capable, although there’s not been many at all of course.

OK, but I was specifically asking for your perspective. Introspection or not.

Actually had a meeting with a female engineer with one of my colleagues last week. She’s very switched on and I told this to my colleague, he said “I’ll be the judge of that”. Turns out he agreed with me after the meeting!

OK.

Do you feel that you'd have remembered, or had the same experience with a similar situation, when it's been a meeting with a MALE engineer?

 

[Gough]

My step sister is mining engineer, my old man was delighted to finally get someone in the family that cared about what he did.

 

[the_interloper]

OK, but I was specifically asking for your perspective. Introspection or not.


OK.

Do you feel that you'd have remembered, or had the same experience with a similar situation, when it's been a meeting with a MALE engineer?

I know you’re asking my perspective but probably find a female engineer and ask them if you want something that’s accurate.

And I’ve met shitloads of very clever male engineers, some s**t ones to be fair but generally engineers, male or female are smart, surprising hey?

 

[CM86]

I know you’re asking my perspective but probably find a female engineer and ask them if you want something that’s accurate.

And I’ve met shitloads of very clever male engineers, some s**t ones to be fair but generally engineers, male or female are smart, surprising hey?

Why are you unable to reflect on how females were viewed/treated during your time at Uni, or during your experience as a professional??

Is this like some super power that I have? That's incredibly unusual for most people??

Or is there some other reason you can't??

 

[the_interloper]

Why are you unable to reflect on how females were viewed/treated during your time at Uni, or during your experience as a professional??

Is this like some super power that I have? That's incredibly unusual for most people??

Or is there some other reason you can't??

It’s because I’m sexist obvs

 

[CM86]

It’s because I’m sexist obvs

Or you could attempt to engage. I've made it pretty clear that I'm embarrassingly obnoxious, so you've nothing to lose with humouring me.

 

[the_interloper]

Or you could attempt to engage. I've made it pretty clear that I'm embarrassingly obnoxious, so you've nothing to lose with humouring me.

I’ve answered your leading questions for a while now and it’s getting a bit old

 

[CM86]

I’ve answered your leading questions for a while now and it’s getting a bit old

Ffs.

If you think my questions about your personal view of how women are treated in your industry is leading... doesn't that cement my point?!?

If you refuse to even attempt to engage with the thought process as to why women are less likely to be part of (or succeed in) a 'male-only' male dominant role, doesn't that starkly point out the reason for the disparity?!?

If you can't even engage with this as an anonymous poster online, on a Footy forum. What hope is there in the industry?!??

 

[Fadge]

Why are you unable to reflect on how females were viewed/treated during your time at Uni, or during your experience as a professional??

Is this like some super power that I have? That's incredibly unusual for most people??

Or is there some other reason you can't??

Maybe the reason is for many people, like me, someone's sex/gender is irrelevant when you're dealing with them in a professional environment.

So it's not even on our radar.

We start with 'Are you good at your job and are you good to deal with', and you go from there....

I've had some great professional relationships with females, and some not so great ones, in the same way as I've had some great and not so great professional relationships with males.

 

[CM86]

Maybe the reason is for many people, like me, someone's sex/gender is irrelevant when you're dealing with them in a professional environment.

So it's not even on our radar.

We start with 'Are you good at your job and are you good to deal with', and you go from there....

I've had some great professional relationships with females, and some not so great ones, in the same way as I've had some great and not so great professional relationships with males.

So you understand that there is no difference between male and female in your profession.

So can you explain the disparity based on sex?

 

[Fadge]

So you understand that there is no difference between male and female in your profession.

So can you explain the disparity based on sex?

What disparity?

 

[CM86]

What disparity?

Why females are under-represented in traditionally male roles...

What did you think you were replying to???!?

 

[Fadge]

Why females are under-represented in traditionally male roles...

What did you think you were replying to???!?

Is that a rhetorical question?