Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Mr Meow]

Yeah you have the individual accolades and specific mega seasons that that help reference respective peaks.

No point then doing career avg again as total output is a much better view of overall impact. A bloke avg 24 disposals over 10 seasons hasn't had a better career compared to a player who avg 22 disposals over 17 seasons.

Total stats, when combined with accolades gives best overview, as if the player who played less seasons of he had more mega seasons (BnFs, Brownlow etc.) you would perhaps give them the nod.

The real GOATs have both the peak and the overall totals. Dusty has the 2010s finals.

Agreed, and again it's only something that even really needs noting when you get stupid statements like "Are you telling me Dusty had MORE goals and disposals than all of these players".

Whenever it suits him, Noidy will deliberately drop his IQ by 50+ points just to deliver a line or spiel that sounds impressive in his head.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Poor Tigers pretend footy didn't exist from 1981 until 2017.

He is miles behind greats from earlier periods in terms of great finals (and finals series).

Even one of their own, KB, in 1980 kicked 21 goals and had 60 disposals in 3 finals game (an avg of 20 and 7gls).

And Dusty has a career H&A record that doesn't stack up with 2010 beats let alone previous champions. Only 2 BnFs and only 5 seasons where he managed a player rating above 14 (that is nothing special at all).

A modern comparison is L.Neale - 6 BnFs, 7 seasons where he had a player rating of above 14, Neale has 2 Brownlow's

Laughable that they keep pushing him.

Dusty was the best finals player of the 2010s and perhaps the 3rd best Richmond player of the 2010s.

Not sure how anyone could have dusty ahead of KB from Richmond. Bartlett beats him in terms of finals and overall career. It’s not even debatable. You would have to be myopic to think otherwise

 

[Mr Meow]

Not sure how anyone could have dusty ahead of KB from Richmond. Bartlett beats him in terms of finals and overall career. It’s not even debatable. You would have to be myopic to think otherwise

Recency bias.

3 treasured premierships right in the rear view mirror after either a lifetime of supporter misery, or an almost forgotten period of success in the 70s etc.

Along with an insecurity that other modern greats are ranked well ahead. This didn't happen with Ablett Junior, which is why so many have no issue putting his Dad ahead (despite lack of premierships).

Great players before the 90s tend to get overlooked. Not all of them. But quite a few. If you are saying things like "undisputed best ever" for anything, then you do have to compare with those eras as well.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

If anyone ever uses an umpires award as a form of argument again I'll spew. It's a nothing award now.

 

[RUNVS]

If anyone ever uses an umpires award as a form of argument again I'll spew. It's a nothing award now.

So many awards are. They are just midfielders awards and just midfielders who are fairly famous already.

I remember the Brownlow last year it was clear the umpires mistook Josh Daicos for Nick Daicos as Josh had a great game, Nick a fairly average one at best and yet Nick got the 3 votes.

 

[Cdog71]

Keeping it to midfielders

Totals (Goals and Disposals):

Martin is 7320 and 338

Pendlebury* is 10301 and 201
R.Harvey is 9656 and 215
B.Harvey is 9213 and 518
Bartlett is 9151 and 778
Ablett is 8896 and 445
Selwood is 8746 and 175
S.Mitchell is 8687 and 71
Dangerfield* is 7908 and 335
Hodge is 7589 and 194
Black is 7580 and 171
Matthews is 7374 and 915

So you mean to tell me that Martin got less of the ball AND/OR kicked less goals than all those midfielders across the entirety of their careers? How can that possibly be?

So Boomer Harvey is a better player than Pendlebury?

 

[Cdog71]

I ask about Pendlebury and Harvey
he’s obviously better than Dangerfield.
Not to mention the 1000 bounces, I think it has alotve merit.
Going by your criteria.

Thoughts?

 

[Cdog71]

Mr Meow
Can you pls list in order from your table of Goals and Disposals over a career.
Dangerfield, Pendlebury, Boomer.
If game totals aren’t relevant because:

That does a disservice for those good enough to play decent footy (albeit footy where averages naturally go down) past 302 games. Especially in the modern game

 

[Mr Meow]

I ask about Pendlebury and Harvey
he’s obviously better than Dangerfield.
Not to mention the 1000 bounces, I think it has alotve merit.
Going by your criteria.

Thoughts?

Using a full set works nicely. For modern day midfielders:

Totals in the following categories

Goals
Goal Assists
Disposals
Clearances
Brownlow votes
Coaches votes
B&F victories
All Australian selections

Imagine thinking (average goals and disposals) would be a better marker for overall career contribution/consistency than tallies for those 8 categories.

Dusty will be behind some midfielders for those, so then it depends on whether 3 brilliant finals series bridges the gap. It will for some players but not for others.

 

[Mr Meow]

Mr Meow
Can you pls list in order from your table of Goals and Disposals over a career.
Dangerfield, Pendlebury, Boomer.
If game totals aren’t relevant because:

That does a disservice for those good enough to play decent footy (albeit footy where averages naturally go down) past 302 games. Especially in the modern game

I'm sure in your head that was a legible request. Try rephrasing and go again.

As a reminder, my post disputed that Martin had "more goals and disposals than all of these players". It was just a weird thing to try and claim.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

So many awards are. They are just midfielders awards and just midfielders who are fairly famous already.

I remember the Brownlow last year it was clear the umpires mistook Josh Daicos for Nick Daicos as Josh had a great game, Nick a fairly average one at best and yet Nick got the 3 votes.

I stopped watching the brownlow after Cripps won.

 

[Noidnadroj]

If this is all you've got - a hybrid midfielder forward being an excellent finals player the 3 seasons his team were dominant, but not the 5 seasons where they weren't - you're actually making a case against Martin.

It’s a simple question … how many finals series was GAJ … or any player in history for that matter… their team’s best mid and best forward?

If the answer is it hasn’t happened in the history of the game … except the 3 times Martin did it … then that’s the answer.

No probs… GAJ isn’t Robinson Crusoe in not doing it … everyone is… except Martin.. 3 times.


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[Mr Meow]

It’s a simple question … how many finals series was GAJ … or any player in history for that matter… their team’s best mid and best forward?

If the answer is it hasn’t happened in the history of the game … except the 3 times Martin did it … then that’s the answer.

No probs… GAJ isn’t Robinson Crusoe in not doing it … everyone is… except Martin.. 3 times.


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When you complete the assignment I gave you, I'm more than happy to answer your questions.

I already had to correct your work on the total goals/disposals error you made though, so please try to keep your work factual.

 

[Zevon]

Thread has been cleaned up folks. Discuss the thread title, leave silly personal digs and petty squabbles out of it.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Terrible analysis, for starters Dangerfield has already played 2 seasons extra.

Did you actually just try and pretend he had more goals and disposals than some of these players without using totals?

Try total Brownlow votes, Coaches votes, B&F victories, AA selections, TOTAL goals, goal assists and disposals if you want a more sophisticated analysis of midfielders peak, consistency and longevity. Martin will still beat out several on your list doing this. But at least it won't be a joke of an analysis.

Averages are protected if you retire earlier.

So if Martin is older and played more games, the averaged should be slanted even more in his favour? He also had the 2020 season with shortened games to reduce his averages … but I won’t include that.

So when Martin retired he was older and had played basically the same number of more games than:

Judd
Cousins
Voss
Bartel
Ricciuto (he was 21.1 and 0.9.. well behind Martin)

He’s also ahead of Petracca, FYfe and Bont in games and age, none of whom have reached their ‘downturn’ yet that affects averages.

And remove the last 2-years of Danger, Crawford and Black and he’s still ahead of all of them in average disposals and goals.

It’s quite amazing that you come up with weird ‘riders’ when looking at averages for Martin who played 15-years and 300+ games and retires at 33yo.

It’s a decent sample size…. and you may like to only use totals to gauge a players quality .. but if we did that Bradman would be about the 50th best batsman ever, Lillee the 25th best bowler.

John Coleman the 40th best FF and vastly inferior to Sav Rocca.

Matt Priddis would also be better than Ian Stewart…


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[Mr Meow]

So if Martin is older and played more games, the averaged should be slanted even more in his favour? He also had the 2020 season with shortened games to reduce his averages … but I won’t include that.

So when Martin retired he was older and had played basically the same number of more games than:

Judd
Cousins
Voss
Bartel
Ricciuto (he was 21.1 and 0.9.. well behind Martin)

He’s also ahead of Petracca, FYfe and Bont in games and age, none of whom have reached their ‘downturn’ yet that affects averages.

And remove the last 2-years of Danger, Crawford and Black and he’s still ahead of all of them in average disposals and goals.

It’s quite amazing that you come up with weird ‘riders’ when looking at averages for Martin who played 15-years and 300+ games and retires at 33yo.

It’s a decent sample size…. and you may like to only use totals to gauge a players quality .. but if we did that Bradman would be about the 50th best batsman ever, Lillee the 25th best bowler.

John Coleman the 40th best FF and vastly inferior to Sav Rocca.

Matt Priddis would also be better than Ian Stewart…


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You said Martin had more goals and disposals than all of the midfielders you had listed. I'm almost surprised you didn't just do the same with Brownlow votes or coaches votes by using averages.

Very cheeky but so transparent.

When you start producing factual work we can collaborate on future projects.

I listed the "totals" criteria that is a useful guide for assessing consistency and longevity of modern day midfielders.

Disposals
Goals
Goal assists
Clearances
Brownlow votes
Coaches votes
AA selections
B&F victories

Even you would have to admit that the totals for those 8 are a more comprehensive and accurate appraisal than "goal and disposal average".

 

[Noidnadroj]

Keeping it to midfielders

Totals (Goals and Disposals):

Martin is 7320 and 338

Pendlebury* is 10301 and 201
R.Harvey is 9656 and 215
B.Harvey is 9213 and 518
Bartlett is 9151 and 778
Ablett is 8896 and 445
Selwood is 8746 and 175
S.Mitchell is 8687 and 71
Dangerfield* is 7908 and 335
Hodge is 7589 and 194
Black is 7580 and 171
Matthews is 7374 and 915

So you mean to tell me that Martin got less of the ball AND/OR kicked less goals than all those midfielders across the entirety of their careers? How can that possibly be?

Oh Mr Meow … you’re really struggling now.
Maybe have a break from this thread.

On that logic Bradman is not as good as Azhar Ali, Stephen Fleming or Ian Bell.

And don’t get me started on where John Coleman and Peter Hudson are ranked

Take 5, take 5.


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[T2B_]

This is still going lol? Already been answered as per the title.

 

[Mr Meow]

Oh Pussy cat … you’re really struggling now.
Maybe have a break from this thread.

On that logic Bradman is not as good as Azhar Ali, Stephen Fleming or Ian Bell.

And don’t get me started on where John Coleman and Peter Hudson are ranked

Take 5 pussy cat, take 5.


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You said Martin had more goals and disposals than a bunch of midfielders. I showed a bunch of midfielders (including several from your list) who had more goals and/or disposals.

If corrections like that are beyond your pay grade, no worries. It was more for the interest of those who understand the basics of numbers.

 

[Cdog71]

As a reminder, my post disputed that Martin had "more goals and disposals than all of these players". It was just a weird thing to try and claim.

If it’s based on averages, how can it not be that he had more of the ball and kicked more goals?


Your trying to hold ground by playing semantics.

You said Martin had more goals and disposals than a bunch of midfielders. I showed a bunch of midfielders (including several from your list) who had more goals and/or disposals.

 

[doppleganger]

It’s a simple question … how many finals series was GAJ … or any player in history for that matter… their team’s best mid and best forward?

If the answer is it hasn’t happened in the history of the game … except the 3 times Martin did it … then that’s the answer.

No probs… GAJ isn’t Robinson Crusoe in not doing it … everyone is… except Martin.. 3 times.


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2017, Prestia better (and Cotch depending how you value clearances and tackles as a better) mid.

Cotch 21 clearances, Prestia 15, Dusty 15
Cotch 68 disposals, Prestia 80, Dusty 77
Cotch 22 tackles, Prestia 15, Dusty 10

2019, Prestia was the main mid not Dusty

Prestia 19 clearances, S.Edwards 17, Cotch 11, Dusty just 8
Prestia 82 disposals, S.Edwards, 67, Dusty 58

Bit of a made up myth that Dusty was best mid AND forward.

No surprise that Prestia and Edwards were 1 & 2 in Tigers BnF in 2019, they did the heavy lifting all year.

Dusty was best player of finals, but that was because Prestia, Cotch and guys like Edwards and Lambert did the heavy lifting in the midfield that allowed Dusty to run ahead of the ball and finish their good work.

 

[Mr Meow]

Career averages : Martin

Disposals : 24.2
Goals: 1.1

Dangerfield is 23.5 and 1.0
Cousins 22.6 and 0.8
Judd 22.9 and 0.8
Black 23.5 and 0.5
Voss 21.3 and 0.8
Petracca 23.3 and 1.0
Bontempelli 23.9 and 1.0
Crawford 22.4 and 0.7
Bartel 22.8 and 0.7

So you mean to tell me that Martin got more of the ball AND kicked more goals than all those superstars across the entirety of their careers? How can that possibly be?


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"So you mean to tell me that Martin got more of the ball AND kicked more goals than all those superstars across the entirety of their careers?"

I don't think he actually told anybody that.

It's as silly as saying "so you're telling me Fyfe has collected more Brownlow votes than Ablett" because his average votes per game is higher.

 

[Mr Meow]

Using a full set works nicely. For modern day midfielders:

Totals in the following categories

Goals
Goal Assists
Disposals
Clearances
Brownlow votes
Coaches votes
B&F victories
All Australian selections

Imagine thinking (average goals and disposals) would be a better marker for overall career contribution/consistency than tallies for those 8 categories.

Dusty will be behind some midfielders for those, so then it depends on whether 3 brilliant finals series bridges the gap. It will for some players but not for others.

Cdog71 pick your favourite 10 modern day midfielders and I am happy to run this exercise for you. A more accurate appraisal of midfielder elite consistency and prolonged excellence.

Who are your favourite 10 modern day midfielders?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Agreed, and again it's only something that even really needs noting when you get stupid statements like "Are you telling me Dusty had MORE goals and disposals than all of these players".

Whenever it suits him, Noidy will deliberately drop his IQ by 50+ points just to deliver a line or spiel that sounds impressive in his head.

Just so I get this correct.

Brendan McClullun with a test career spanning 13-years and scoring 6,453 runs, is a superior player to Adam Gilchrist whose test career spanned 9-years with 5,570 runs.

Or Jimmy Anderson with a test career spanning 20-years and 704 wickets, is a vastly superior player to Lillee, Malcolm Marshall, Michael Holding and Ambrose?

And who do you think js the better player .. John Coleman, Peter Hudson or Sav Rocca?

Brereton or Bradshaw?

Matthew Richardson or Wayne Carey?

So you must have some really weird arse opinions on your test cricket rankings if you analyse quality of players by career length and totals and not averages.

If a player has minimal data then i agree, averages should be treated with caution. 15-years and 300-games is probably a sizeable enough sample size to compare disposal and goal averages against others…. you cant ‘fluke’ output for 15-years and 300-games.


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[Mr Meow]

Just so I get this correct.

Brendan McClullun with a test career spanning 13-years and scoring 6,453 runs, is a superior player to Adam Gilchrist whose test career spanned 9-years with 5,570 runs.

Or Jimmy Anderson with a test career spanning 20-years and 704 wickets, is a vastly superior player to Lillee, Malcolm Marshall, Michael Holding and Ambrose?

And who do you think js the better player .. John Coleman, Peter Hudson or Sav Rocca?

Brereton or Bradshaw?

Matthew Richardson or Wayne Carey?

So you must have some really weird arse opinions on your test cricket rankings if you analyse quality of players by career length and totals and not averages.

If a player has minimal data then i agree, averages should be treated with caution. 15-years and 300-games is probably a sizeable enough sample size to compare disposal and goal averages against others…. you cant ‘fluke’ output for 15-years and 300-games.


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All you need to correct is your statement where you said "so you're telling me Martin had more goals AND disposals than all these players".

It really isn't that hard. A prep student can make a correction like that in 5 seconds. Show me how capable you are. No off topic waffling.