Test Frank Worrell Trophy Third Test (D/N) West Indies v Australia July 12-16 0400hrs 13/7 @ Sabina Park, Jamaica

[sr36]

****ing don't give Green the ball. Don't do it. Physically take it off him, and if you catch him thinking nostalgically about bowling fetch a stool so you can reach and slap him across his golden retriever-esque face.

We do not need Cameron Green to bowl. We need him to average more than 40 with the bat. Runs are at an all time premium, and we still have one of the best across the board attacks ever assembled in Australian colours as well as an all rounder averaging 35 with the bat and 27 with the ball.

Let him bat and field at gully. That's it.

Meh. He's a freak talent. I've never seen an Aussie who can genuinely make the top 6 and be more than a change up with the ball. That's what he's capable of. What's gained by having someone like that trumps a top 6 batsman averaging a few more - which is what you're advocating for. You're going to use a 5th bowler and in recent times we're going to take a hit on our 6th batsman to pick someone who can bowl at a high enough level to not cause a big drop in pressure. Webster has made a great start, but banking on him remaining a top 6 batsman in the country isn't a great bet.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I'm not sure how much say the National selectors have in State selection, but within reason they've gotta bat somewhere close to their test match spot.

What I WILL say is that the batsmen HAVE to play the first few games of shield.
The only excuse is injury.
None of this bullshit that happened at the start of last season.

That'd be the FIRST thing out of my mouth as a selector to the Test squad incumbents prior to the start of the Shield matches.

they all should play the bowlers I'm fine resting a game but every batsman plays every game and yes that includes you Smith.

 

[Bedi]

I'm not sure how much say the National selectors have in State selection, but within reason they've gotta bat somewhere close to their test match spot.

What I WILL say is that the batsmen HAVE to play the first few games of shield.
The only excuse is injury.
None of this bullshit that happened at the start of last season.

That'd be the FIRST thing out of my mouth as a selector to the Test squad incumbents prior to the start of the Shield. starting

Agreed, but problem is the start of the shield season coincides with our Australia A tour to India. Batting on those wickets will hardly be good preparation for the Ashes, so reckon Konstas, McSweeney and Patterson may need to miss out on that one. A shame as it would've been good experience for them to bat in the subcontinent.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Agreed, but problem is the start of the shield season coincides with our Australia A tour to India. Batting on those wickets will hardly be good preparation for the Ashes, so reckon Konstas, McSweeney and Patterson may need to miss out on that one. A shame as it would've been good experience for them to bat in the subcontinent.

Konstas should not be going on the A tour, let him bat for NSW. McSweeney isn't playing this summer he can go, and Patterson can go he's unlikely at best.

 

[Bedi]

Konstas should not be going on the A tour, let him bat for NSW. McSweeney isn't playing this summer he can go, and Patterson can go he's unlikely at best.

Patterson i still have great hopes for. Who's in the mix then in your eyes?

 

[Borisdog]

Agreed, but problem is the start of the shield season coincides with our Australia A tour to India. Batting on those wickets will hardly be good preparation for the Ashes, so reckon Konstas, McSweeney and Patterson may need to miss out on that one. A shame as it would've been good experience for them to bat in the subcontinent.

**** the sub-continent.

Experience happens automatically if you're good enough to get selected. If you want to get selected for the pinnacle series in an Australian Test Cricketer's resume you make your case HERE.

I'd be gob-smacked if the selectors don't see it that way.

 

[cricketnut14]

they all should play the bowlers I'm fine resting a game but every batsman plays every game and yes that includes you Smith.

yeah i think there's 4 rounds of shield before the ashes for those not involved in the odi/t20 squads.

i think you'll find there's also 4 rounds of shield after BBL and the only international cricket will be the t20 world cup.

could some of our test players play at the back end of the shield ?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Patterson i still have great hopes for. Who's in the mix then in your eyes?

They have to be openers with middle order bats longer term.

Look realistically

Both openers we need to find. I like Kelleway from Victoria as one. I was a massive Henry Hunt fan but he'd annoyed me to no end lately and just when he's annoyed me enough turns up once.

the number 3 we have Godwin (WA) and long term maybe Peake I guess though the latter one I'll let everyone else rate I haven't seen enough. McSweeney an option if they want a bridge player hopefully he finds a middle ground in his game though, I know it was Bumrah but he was blocking half volleys out there

Number 4 will be Cameron Green and he'd be the next captain for mine in all likelyhood (there aren't too many options, Head is basically the same age as Cummins)- Smith has 2 years left though so the meantime Green bats 3.

Number 5 is Head with someone like a Cooper Connolly in the back of our minds or something like that but that's a few years down the track Head has a goos 6-7 years left

Webster is at 6, just not as convinced he's as set as people think with these selectors. I hope if we do move on we take a leaf from when Ponting debuted and debut a young kid at 6 who can potentially move up the order in time. This has been a big criticism of mine, batsmen are starting way too high in the order

Patterson who I love, his issue is he's a genuine 3. Positions 3-6 are filled unless he can open and he's never done it, doubt he's even in the mix.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

yeah i think there's 4 rounds of shield before the ashes 9for those not involved in the odi/t20 squads.

i think you'll find there's also 4 rounds of shield after BBL and the only international cricket will be the t20 world cup.

could some of our test players play at the back end of the shield ?

They should play every single game they are available for if I hear they are resting i'll lose it. You earn the right to rest via scoring tons, they have not.

Bowlers plus Carey have earnt the right

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

1/32 is worthy of superstar praise? Ok then…

Nek minute.



1/32 no. 6/9 definitely. Will you finally admit he's OK now?

 

[Saint12]

they all should play the bowlers I'm fine resting a game but every batsman plays every game and yes that includes you Smith.

Bowlers should play as well...these batsmen need to face the best bowlers as well. Not like the bowlers had a huge work load lately either.

 

[Saint12]

Nek minute.

View attachment 2368448

1/32 no. 6/9 definitely. Will you finally admit he's OK now?

should've been 7fa as well

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Bowlers should play as well...these batsmen need to face the best bowlers as well. Not like the bowlers had a huge work load lately either.

Look assuming there are 4 games before the first test I'm fine them resting 1 game though ideally game 2 or 3.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Does anyone else think that Starc is actually kinda underrated? 400+ test wickets and he seems to be critiqued more than praised.

And greatest strike rate of all Oz bowlers with 100 wickets or more not named Cummins.

 

[IKnowtheDog]

Pretty disappointing series from the batters on both sides. Only Head scored more than 200 runs and 6 batters scored a half century.

The pitches may have played some part but the dismissals on most part were very poor cricket. Would love to know what Cam Green was doing first ball this morning.

 

[cricketnut14]

Look assuming there are 4 games before the first test I'm fine them resting 1 game though ideally game 2 or 3.

Yeah we were outplayed by India in the first test last summer on the back of India effectively having 3 warm up matches v New Zealand. Players like Cummins went in cold and got found out. I did read the other day that he was looking to play 1.

Cummins has hardly played shield cricket (85 FC games of which 71 are tests).

 

[LukeParkerno1]

And greatest strike rate of all Oz bowlers with 100 wickets or more not named Cummins.

Both him and Haze are underrated to a degree. Starc's back end of his test career has been ridiculous, it took him ages to become a great test bowler (stiil was a wicketaker though). He transformed from being very Johnson like and bowling jaffas and rubbish, to bowling really consistent lines in all conditions.

Every year Haze is underrated by fans we won't realise how goos he is till he isn't there, Boland is covering up that loss but soon he wont as he's not young

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Yeah we were outplayed by India in the first test last summer on the back of India effectively having 3 warm up matches v New Zealand. Players like Cummins went in cold and got found out. I did read the other day that he was looking to play 1.

Cummins has hardly played shield cricket (85 FC games of which 71 are tests).

Even Cummins should play 2/4 at the least (minimum). Yep that first test we were as cold as can be and bowled as bad as we could in Perth

 

[Chezz]

Oh, and Kyle Mayers while not a step in the youth direction is the other player I would try hard to get in. He’s not an out and out T20 star so he’s not as in demand as some of the other franchise players which has meant he’s still played first class cricket. He doesn’t have a brilliant record - he only averages low 30s - but he can play. And he’s a very handy bowler. A sort of Wian Mulder type player.

Have seen Mayers bat too, hit some amazing shots against the Aussies back at the Gabba a few years ago. Mark Waugh was raving about him.

Would be another that’s more likely to make runs as well. Has underperformed relative to his talent I think.

Definitely with Pooran. He’s never shown any interest in first class cricket. He’s obviously gifted there is absolutely no denying that but he hasn’t played a first class game in 5 years and only ever played 5 of them full stop.

Sherfane Rutherford can definitely bat and has an insane record in his brief ODI career. He hasn’t played any red back cricket for 6 years BUT he’s only 26 so it wouldn’t be too late if he could be lured into it. And he would most definitely be a much better batsman now than he was then.

Hetmeyer is still in the set up and played an ODI last month and played his last red ball cricket in 2022. He’s at least played some tests and showed glimpses in his career that he could handle it. Both the latter two undoubtedly have the natural talent to handle that standard. Whether they have the aptitude for it is another question; Hetmeyer vies with a not insignificant list of candidates for the title of dumbest WI batsmen this century.

These are the candidates I would like to think could improve that squad, aside from the latter two you mentioned:

Tevin Imlach - already in the squad and has tasted test cricket. Played a really crucial knock in our last win. Made a bucket of runs last home season.

JDS - experienced, made a bucket of runs last season.

Jewel Andrew - just turned 19, has smoked bowlers at every underage level tournament he’s played, has handled the transition to senior cricket, hit a century in his first season of first class cricket. Got fast tracked into the one day team. Hyper aggressive. Hit 480 at 40, strike rate of over 80 in his first full season of FC cricket.

Kavem Hodge: hit a century in England last year and played, along with Da Silva, the decisive innings in the Gabba test

Holder: I bang on about him a lot but the simple fact is he is experienced, has pedigree, has scored runs in a variety of conditions, has scored big, scores fast, can actually play spin (barely any other West Indies batsmen can) and he compliments the gun pace attack well

Matthew Forde: young all rounder who averaged 40 with the bat and mid 20s with the ball last season, his first.

Shakquere Paris - played two matches last season and barely got one off the square. Played all seven matches this season and hit a century and five 50s and averaged 45.

I would toss all of them into the mix. And err on the side of youth

Agree with pretty much all of this. Except Holder. I’ve always felt he got in as a bowler that batted well. And his bowling was ridiculously friendly unless conditions suited. The bowlers you have now are far superior to Holder.

The fact he managed to average around 30 and no one else has in recent times is a real indictment on the West Indian players and the selection.

There’s so much chat about how bad the Windies are, which isn’t the case. It’s just all the good players are out there are getting the big money on the T20 circuit.

sr36 spot on re:Gayle. Best international batsman WI have had since Lara, would have been lost to international cricket if he started his career now.

The WI have such a small pool (made worse by athletics, basketball and other American sports taking over) that these T20 leagues paying the few good bats the WI have means the remainder aren’t up to the level.

 

[Lia]

I'm a bit of a Starc hater, but fair play when he actually gets it right he is unplayable.

 

[sr36]

sr36 spot on re:Gayle. Best international batsman WI have had since Lara, would have been lost to international cricket if he started his career now.

Yep. Like you said with Pooran - he's played 5 first class games and none since 2020.

Just think how dazzling a young Lara was - what a T20 player he would have been - he would have been snapped up early by franchises - would he have played FC and test cricket? Richards? Lloyd?

You take the best batsmen out of even the great teams and what are you left with?

 

[the_interloper]

Both him and Haze are underrated to a degree. Starc's back end of his test career has been ridiculous, it took him ages to become a great test bowler (stiil was a wicketaker though). He transformed from being very Johnson like and bowling jaffas and rubbish, to bowling really consistent lines in all conditions.

Every year Haze is underrated by fans we won't realise how goos he is till he isn't there, Boland is covering up that loss but soon he wont as he's not young

Yeah I thought Starc was going to be a bit like a quicker Bracken, great at the short form but struggles to penetrate at Test level. Glad to have been proven wrong, you're right about him becoming way more consistent. It used to be when he was on look out otherwise he might get slapped, the stinkers have become more and more rare.

And you're right about Hazlewood, I'm sure they don't play him over Boland just for a laugh, it's a rare combo.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

If you want to get test cricket back to being competitive within all the cricket playing nations they need to take a look at the AFL. It's not going to happen, but Cricket boards should hand over broadcast rights to the ICC who then distribute proceeds unequally to encourage a competitive balance. At the moment, it's dwindling downwards to being extremely tiered between the have and have not nations - the accelaration of that seems inevitable.

I haven't watched third party test series since the days me and my mates would hang out at each others houses during Uni and watch random test matches all night... but if there was a centralized way to watch all cricket - maybe supplemented by something that is a bit more in-depth than your daily 10 minutes highlight package. It could be interesting viewing.

Something like a single sourced cricket broadcasting platform, with live coverage supplemented by extended daily highlights package of roughly 1 hour per day and shorter 10 minute 'minis' would maybe get me to subscribe.

 

[PhatBoy]

Have seen Mayers bat too, hit some amazing shots against the Aussies back at the Gabba a few years ago. Mark Waugh was raving about him.

Would be another that’s more likely to make runs as well. Has underperformed relative to his talent I think.

Agree with pretty much all of this. Except Holder. I’ve always felt he got in as a bowler that batted well. And his bowling was ridiculously friendly unless conditions suited. The bowlers you have now are far superior to Holder.

The fact he managed to average around 30 and no one else has in recent times is a real indictment on the West Indian players and the selection.

There’s so much chat about how bad the Windies are, which isn’t the case. It’s just all the good players are out there are getting the big money on the T20 circuit.

sr36 spot on re:Gayle. Best international batsman WI have had since Lara, would have been lost to international cricket if he started his career now.

The WI have such a small pool (made worse by athletics, basketball and other American sports taking over) that these T20 leagues paying the few good bats the WI have means the remainder aren’t up to the level.

Holder’s bowling started out needing a bit of help.

You don’t take 5-56 against Kohli, Rahane and Pant in Hyderabad on days 2-3 if you need favourable conditions, nor 5-30 against Pakistan at Sharjah on a pitch where Devendra Bishoo took 5-77 on day 1.

He did it on another featherbed at Kingston against India too: took 5-70 while India made 416.

It was a bit of a myth.
Between 2016-2021 in 27 matches he took 95 wickets at 22, and scored 1400 runs at 34.

He was without doubt at that point, an outstanding and world class all rounder.

 

[Chezz]

Holder’s bowling started out needing a bit of help.

You don’t take 5-56 against Kohli, Rahane and Pant in Hyderabad on days 2-3 if you need favourable conditions, nor 5-30 against Pakistan at Sharjah on a pitch where Devendra Bishoo took 5-77 on day 1.

He did it on another featherbed at Kingston against India too: took 5-70 while India made 416.

It was a bit of a myth.
Between 2016-2021 in 27 matches he took 95 wickets at 22, and scored 1400 runs at 34.

He was without doubt at that point, an outstanding and world class all rounder.

Happy to agree with you on everything but Holder haha. Even Jason Kreija got 8 in an innings once in India.

Holder did alright against some weak opposition during that period. By being not so strong, the Windies were forced to play more Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc more often in this time.

I’ll be honest I’ve never rated him very highly. His test bowling average of 88 v Australia, 99 v NZ, you mentioned India 38.3. Strong against Bangladesh 16 wickets at 8.9. Decent against Sri Lanka and Pakistan (averaged just over 20) but both been very weak over this period.

He’s highly overrated imo and WI need to move past him. And the bowling signs are there. Shamar, Alzarri and Seales were fantastic and hopefully have a big future for the Windies.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/cricketers/jason-holder-391485/bowling-batting-stats