How good were Hawthorn 2008?

[DanA]

A good team that was the nucleus of a great one a few years later.

 

[Randall Stevens]

I would say Hawthorn in 2008 was a good to very good team in the home and away season which 'got hot' and peaked at exactly the right time.
While over the h&a season Geelong were indisputably the best team in the competition, if you looked at the finals series in isolation Hawthorn's form in the qualifying and prelim finals was at least as impressive as Geelong's.

Also, I've never been as 'upbeat' after a loss before or since as I was after the Round 17 game that year, when Hawthorn lost narrowly to Geelong - knowing we had got close but played nowhere near our best gave me confidence that we could take it right up to the Cats in the finals. I realise Geelong also were well below their best, but I have always felt that game was hugely important psychologically. It gave Hawthorn confidence that Geelong weren't invincible and that if they found their best, the Hawks could match it with them.

The 2008 Hawthorn team is not in my opinion one of the great premiership winning teams - it wouldn't even be in the top 5 Hawthorn premiership teams in my time watching them ('83 is the first flag in my memory).
That said, it is absolutely my favourite premiership team, for the circumstances in which it was won and because it was the first winning grand final I saw live at the ground.

 

[canny30]

I would say Hawthorn in 2008 was a good to very good team in the home and away season which 'got hot' and peaked at exactly the right time.
While over the h&a season Geelong were indisputably the best team in the competition, if you looked at the finals series in isolation Hawthorn's form in the qualifying and prelim finals was at least as impressive as Geelong's.

Also, I've never been as 'upbeat' after a loss before or since as I was after the Round 17 game that year, when Hawthorn lost narrowly to Geelong - knowing we had got close but played nowhere near our best gave me confidence that we could take it right up to the Cats in the finals. I realise Geelong also were well below their best, but I have always felt that game was hugely important psychologically. It gave Hawthorn confidence that Geelong weren't invincible and that if they found their best, the Hawks could match it with them.

The 2008 Hawthorn team is not in my opinion one of the great premiership winning teams - it wouldn't even be in the top 5 Hawthorn premiership teams in my time watching them ('83 is the first flag in my memory).
That said, it is absolutely my favourite premiership team, for the circumstances in which it was won and because it was the first winning grand final I saw live at the ground.

I think if you put the two teams at the peak of their form against each other, Geelong would win by about 40 points.

Which is why the premiership win is so impressive....it was the biggest upset in a GF I can remembee and I don't recall reading about a bigger upset in history

 

[Ed_Gein]

Probably don’t agree with the ‘Hawthorn win that game 5 out of 10 times’ comment earlier in the thread but a) I’m biased so of course I’m not going to, but b) you don’t get to 23-1 for a season without being a f**king good side yourself. But yes to be fair we probably did dip a little bit later in the season compared to the footy we were playing a bit earlier, and Hawthorn were on a real tear during the finals and good enough that I had money on them on grand final day:

Been a long time since I've seen the game, but I couldn't see Cats having an inaccurate quarter like they did the 2nd in each of those 10 replayed games. Hawks had a decent spurt in the 3rd taking their own chances and Cats probably wilted a bit. Under normal circumstances Cats would've won a majority of the 10 in my opinion

 

[PhatBoy]

Been a long time since I've seen the game, but I couldn't see Cats having an inaccurate quarter like they did the 2nd in each of those 10 replayed games. Hawks had a decent spurt in the 3rd taking their own chances and Cats probably wilted a bit. Under normal circumstances Cats would've won a majority of the 10 in my opinion

I suppose the thing is in most games if we did have a period like the second term, and blow a heap of chances, we would normally just come out in the third and kick 6-7 straight and smoke the opposition anyway and it would be a distant memory. Hawthorn weren’t going to let that happen. They were too good.

 

[Andyy]

One of the greats imo. Geelong didn't choke Hawthorn were just better when it mattered. How good or great do you rate the hawks. Or do you overrate them?

For me the brand of footy they played that season could match it with almost any side. Especially what they played like in the finals.

Hawks were good, but Geelong choked so hard it's not funny mate.

 

[MadMaxx]

Stewie Dew.. 'An unlikely, bulky hero

If you look at the form, the Cats were up all year, losing only a single H&A to the Pies. A % of 160+

In Clear second place was the Hawks at 17-5; % of 131

But the Hawks begun tapering up the performances in the last 3 H&A Rounds after an unexpected loss to Richmond. By the time Finals came around, we were singing, and as stated here killed the Saints and the Dogs onroute to the big game..

In the Finals, the Hawks managed to generate scores of:

127-118-115
and the Cats did
119-83-89

It just felt like the Cats were tapering off slightly, just as the Hawks Lifted, and we were able to get this super powerful side with seven All Australians at the right time for a famous win. We were fn good that year

I am lucky enough to have been at 10 of the Hawks Flags, and 2008 is right up there with 89 as the best

 

[canny30]

The irony is that during the majority of the Kennett curse a seriously inferior Geelong side the to the 2008 team managed to stack up the wins vs Hawthorn.

If you look at that 2013 prelim final Geelong team, it was nowhere near the talent level of the 2013 Hawks.

That was our chance to square the ledger and we blew it....just

Even the 2016 Geelong team contained some very very ordinary talent...and we did beat a stacked Hawthorn team.....that game flies under the radar a bit

 

[Hawkk]

Been a long time since I've seen the game, but I couldn't see Cats having an inaccurate quarter like they did the 2nd in each of those 10 replayed games. Hawks had a decent spurt in the 3rd taking their own chances and Cats probably wilted a bit. Under normal circumstances Cats would've won a majority of the 10 in my opinion

One of the rare games that spurred a rivalry that lasted more than a decade. Sort of like Carlton v Essendon in the 1999 Prelim it’s funny how that rivalry kept humming when objectively better Grand Finals (ie 2005/06, 2009, 2011/12 and 2018) died out pretty much straight after the games…

 

[Hawkk]

The irony is that during the majority of the Kennett curse a seriously inferior Geelong side the to the 2008 team managed to stack up the wins vs Hawthorn.

If you look at that 2013 prelim final Geelong team, it was nowhere near the talent level of the 2013 Hawks.

That was our chance to square the ledger and we blew it....just

2016?

 

[canny30]

2016?

I made an edit and mentioned 2016, haha

 

[Cyclops]

I think if you put the two teams at the peak of their form against each other, Geelong would win by about 40 points.

Which is why the premiership win is so impressive....it was the biggest upset in a GF I can remembee and I don't recall reading about a bigger upset in history

Ahem.

In 1970 the Pies had an average winning margin vs Carlton of about 40 points across 2 h&a and a final, and iirc McKenna kicked a couple of 9 goal bags.

Unusually for the Pies we had a lot of individual stars like MKenna, Tuddy Thompson, Price, Greening, Waters, so they were more like the proverbial "team of Champions".

Our best forward and our best mid got concussed early and we still established and 8 goal lead at half time.

 

[Scotland]

Second best team in the H&A season, best team on GF day in the end.

Geelong not winning that GF is one of the more epic chokes you will see. Not only because of how the game panned out on the day but you just don't see teams finish 21-1 161%. 34 scoring shots to 25, 6.12 to 8.3 at half time, 9.18 to 14.5 at three quarter time. You can't have double the scoring shots to half time and be behind, then come out and kick 3.6 to 6.2 in the third and 2.5 to 4.3 in the last. Yes 11 rushed behinds leading to a rule change.

Hawthorn were still very good though. 17 wins 132% and won both of their other finals convincingly. Similar to 2011 they just happened to be part of a H&A season with a team that was even better (2011 had two). Had Geelong got up I don't think many people would've memed Hawthorn about it as no one else got close. But they took their chance and the rest is history. My only memories of the game are Cam Mooney missing a sitter on the half time siren and Stuart Dew

Stuart Dew

Age

46

Ht

183cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.1

3star

K

9.1

4star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.8

4star

kicking two snags in 5 minutes.

 

[Xtreme]

One of the great Grand finals. Hawthorn too good on the day. Geelong didn't chokr, Hawthorn out witted, out played AND outlasted them.

 

[lordbob]

StillAtLarge i concede you know the side far better than me, but if you play that game ten times my guess is the Cats win it eight times.

Having said that, Hawthorn 2008 were very good, But Geelong 2008 would win 7/10 times against them imo.

Depends on the 10 games.

If its 10 games in a row and corad gets injured in game 1 then 7-8/10 to geelong is probably right.

But if you play 1 game with the same teams that rocked up on that day with the same build up etc then hawks win 6-7/10.

Hawks had a better finals series that year, not just better grand final day. It was no fluke that they won. They were not just better on the day, they were simply better at the end of the season.

 

[PhatBoy]

Second best team in the H&A season, best team on GF day in the end.

Geelong not winning that GF is one of the more epic chokes you will see. Not only because of how the game panned out on the day but you just don't see teams finish 21-1 161%. 34 scoring shots to 25, 6.12 to 8.3 at half time, 9.18 to 14.5 at three quarter time. You can't have double the scoring shots to half time and be behind, then come out and kick 3.6 to 6.2 in the third and 2.5 to 4.3 in the last. Yes 11 rushed behinds leading to a rule change.

Hawthorn were still very good though. 17 wins 132% and won both of their other finals convincingly. Similar to 2011 they just happened to be part of a H&A season with a team that was even better (2011 had two). Had Geelong got up I don't think many people would've memed Hawthorn about it as no one else got close. But they took their chance and the rest is history. My only memories of the game are Cam Mooney missing a sitter on the half time siren and Stuart Dew kicking two snags in 5 minutes.

We’d actually kicked 6.8 to halftime.
Hawthorn rushed 4 of our behinds. Still poor kicking but it was 14 scoring shots to 11 as the Hawks implemented what was a pretty clever strategy. People whinged about it but hey it was in the rules so who cares.

In the third we kicked 3.3 and had another 3 rushed. Hawthorn kicked 6.2

So at 3qt we’d had 27 scores to 19, but 20 shots on goal to 19.

Yeah inaccuracy definitely cost us, especially the Mooney and Ottens sitters. But it wasn’t the terrible imbalance that everyone makes out.

 

[canny30]

Depends on the 10 games.

If its 10 games in a row and corad gets injured in game 1 then 7-8/10 to geelong is probably right.

But if you play 1 game with the same teams that rocked up on that day with the same build up etc then hawks win 6-7/10.

Hawks had a better finals series that year, not just better grand final day. It was no fluke that they won. They were not just better on the day, they were simply better at the end of the season.

finals series Hawks vs finals series Geelong id put at 6-4 Geelong

You're presuming we would piss that 2nd qtr away almost every game and lard arse Dew kicking goals out his ring bit.

 

[Cyclops]

Depends on the 10 games.

If 10 games in a row and corad gets injured in game 1 then 7-8/10 to geelong is probably right.

But if you play 1 game with the same teams that rocked up on that day with the same build up etc then hawks win 6-7/10.

Hawks had a better finals series that year, not just better grand final day. It was no fluke that they won. They were not just better on the day, they were simply better at the end of the season.

You're right it a silly way i expressed it.

I think Geelongs favouritism going in was deserved, and Hawthorn's run of beating Cats was more indicative of Clarkson being a better coach than Bomber.

I'm not much of a one for for stats (and i tease Hawks because they often are a bit mathematical) but Clarksons numbers alone put him on par with Yabby.

The 80s Hawks were assembled with generous zones and fierce bidding, the 2013-15 Hawks featured superb recycling as well as a mix of brilliant low and high draft choices.

Yabby had to face a couple of other "super sides" in Essendon (coached by an aknowledged genius in Sheeds) and Carlton (who cheated harder than anyone when it came to recruiting), whereas Clarko got to face some non Vics at the G...i feel as though the circumstances balance out somewhat, so its down to the numbers.

I dont like Clarko as a person but I feel like you could make a case he's better than Yab.

That said John Kennedy would still be Hawks greatest. Broke through the anti Catholic barrier, and turned Hawthorn from a joke into a premiership side. Like Clarkson his tactics offended the genteel sensibilities, but his club had no money, a terrible attitude, and inherited huge disadvantages and he blew everyone away with sheer brutal courage. GOAT Hawk no further questions.

 

[MadMaxx]

I dont like Clarko as a person but I feel like you could make a case he's better than Yab.

That said John Kennedy would still be Hawks greatest. Broke through the anti Catholic barrier, and turned Hawthorn from a joke into a premiership side. Like Clarkson his tactics offended the genteel sensibilities, but his club had no money, a terrible attitude, and inherited huge disadvantages and he blew everyone away with sheer brutal courage. GOAT Hawk no further questions.

I think you are more right. So very different as coaches of course, due to the game evolution.

Yab had the Hawks 80's boys 500% locked in to his ethos. His game plan was simple, and they would run through walls if the guy told them to. He was like a father to all of them. Of course Yabby had his health issues, and had to hand over his team to Joyce in 88 and later in 91, so his legacy is hurt somewhat by "only winning three". But it was his team all the same.

Clarko was tactically much better, and whilst he tried to be a father figure, it sometimes fell short a bit. He gets a lot of credit for his innovative moves (Cluster etc), and also had a way of surrounding himself with some all time assistants, most of which became seriously good head coaches at other clubs. Was a "Whole of Club" kinda coach.

However Kennedy stands clearly on the top rung,
Brilliant tactician and innovator,
Brilliant motivator and orator,
Brilliant leader of men.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Hawks were good, but Geelong choked so hard it's not funny mate.

Home and away game was about 22 or 23 points in it. Geelong didn't choke heaps of those points were rushed. Hawks 3rd qtr was out of this world.

 

[Andyy]

Home and away game was about 22 or 23 points in it. Geelong didn't choke heaps of those points were rushed. Hawks 3rd qtr was out of this world.

Hawks had a great year.
Saved their best for the pointy end.

But at 21-1 and a % of 160+ the Cats were absolutely elite and the team to beat.

I reckon they pulled a Crows 2017, drank their own bathwater before the fat lady started singing.

No discredit to Hawks. They were great. But Geelong choked IMO.

 

[shaqsuns]

100% it was a geelong choke!! The Hawks didn't even play finals in 2009. Whereas Geelong won the pre season granny; went 18-4; and beat a 20-2 saints team on grand final day a year later. Then went on to have two more great seasons afterwards.

I honestly believe if the cats beat Hawthorn in 08, we would be talking about that Geelong side as the greatest team to have ever played! But instead they have that 07 New England vibe about them.

 

[Cyclops]

I think you are more right. So very different as coaches of course, due to the game evolution.

Yab had the Hawks 80's boys 500% locked in to his ethos. His game plan was simple, and they would run through walls if the guy told them to. He was like a father to all of them. Of course Yabby had his health issues, and had to hand over his team to Joyce in 88 and later in 91, so his legacy is hurt somewhat by "only winning three". But it was his team all the same.

Clarko was tactically much better, and whilst he tried to be a father figure, it sometimes fell short a bit. He gets a lot of credit for his innovative moves (Cluster etc), and also had a way of surrounding himself with some all time assistants, most of which became seriously good head coaches at other clubs. Was a "Whole of Club" kinda coach.

However Kennedy stands clearly on the top rung,
Brilliant tactician and innovator,
Brilliant motivator and orator,
Brilliant leader of men.

One measure of a coach is if he changes the game eg McHale, Smith/Barrassi, and Dimma (hate to admit it but in retrospect chaos balls is the biggest shift since the ruck rover). Polly Farmer and perhaps Dick Condon might be afford to that august group as players who changed the game.

Another measure is if they change the rules to stop them: Kennedy, Malthouse and Clarkson. Clarkson irritated the crap out of everyone.

IIRC Sheedy invented the modern zone flood but a mixture of Roos, Lyon and Longmire made it so revolting it had to be stopped, not sure who is to blame there.

 

[PhatBoy]

100% it was a geelong choke!! The Hawks didn't even play finals in 2009. Whereas Geelong won the pre season granny; went 18-4; and beat a 20-2 saints team on grand final day a year later. Then went on to have two more great seasons afterwards.

I honestly believe if the cats beat Hawthorn in 08, we would be talking about that Geelong side as the greatest team to have ever played! But instead they have that 07 New England vibe about them.

They played finals in 2007 though and won one, and finished second in 2008. What does what happened afterwards have to do with it? Geelong didn’t play finals in 2023. Does that mean our 16 wins in a row in 2022 was a fluke or something?

We DID choke a bit but what the hell does Hawthorn’s NEXT season have to do with what they achieved the season/s before it

 

[Erakor]

Can’t really remember the 2008 Hawks side that well.

But I do remember that Geelong team.

The cats kicked 11.23. I think they just lost it.