Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[Worm4]

True that.

But it again just shows that brining in a mature player, who was very strong at VFL level, can provide better return than the 18 year old kid.

You do well to get 50 games out of late national draft kids, let alone rookies etc.most are on the list for 3-4 years and then delisted.

Sullivan is an example of the Pies turning over our list, whilst remaining competitive. But yet supporters are focused on youth and developing for the future.

I actually rate him . Has some see u in the NT about him

 

[Purple Suit]

bzparkes and Purple Suit - how would you guys have managed Collingwood's list differently if you were in charge, and when would you have done it?

Go.

I would have done something about your drafting and development by now. It’s terrible besides F/S picks. You should have gotten one diamond in the rough if you were any good.

I wouldn’t have topped up with Shultz & Houston.

Both those trades have added little and cost a lot. You could have had Logan Morris, Murphy Reid and a 1st rounder from this year.

It’s the top ups that kill teams. You’ll look back and going hard after the 23 flag with that age profile & draft performance was a mistake.

 

[Fadge]

I would have done something about your drafting and development by now. It’s terrible besides F/S picks. You should have gotten one diamond in the rough if you were any good.

I wouldn’t have topped up with Shultz & Houston.

Both those trades have added little and cost a lot. You could have had Logan Morris, Murphy Reid and a 1st rounder from this year.

It’s the top ups that kill teams. You’ll look back and going hard after the 23 flag with that age profile & draft performance was a mistake.

Sounds as though you would have started the refresh/rebuild before 2023, and missed a flag.

Should Pendlebury and Sidebottom still be going around this year?

 

[bzparkes]

bzparkes and Purple Suit - how would you guys have managed Collingwood's list differently if you were in charge, and when would you have done it?

Go.

After a decade of drafting in nothing of note that wasn't a FS/academy pick, I'd have looked for a competent list manager, for starters.

Then, I wouldn't have followed the WCE method of burning multiple first rounders on trades in to try and cash in on and old squad attempting to squeeze out one more flag, when it's obvious there's up and coming teams who have simply adapted to the modern game plan, already have a far superior squad and will only get better whilst my oldies all begin retiring, knowing I have nothing to replace them with.

How are Collingwood going to compete in future with Brisbane/Gold Coast, for instance? Sure, I disagree with the means they've been able to acquire their young talent but my opinion on that is irrelevant because they do have it and are only going to get better. They already have the core there to replace their aging stars with no issues whatsoever.
Collingwood doesn't have that(neither did WCE or Richmond), not do they have their recruitment advantages/luck(other than Daicos) so where does their list improvement and rejuvenation actually come from?

 

[Mynamesinuse]

They’ve been extremely lucky with the father sons and academy pick ups that have kept them going. Their drafting hasn’t been great otherwise.

 

[bzparkes]

Missed McCreery in 2020 and L Sullivan in 2023/4 was added late as a rookie.

Yeah I did miss McCreery, he's been good. I didn't see him in my list and thought he must've been drafted earlier, even though he's still young.

I started skipping on the extra rookies in 2024, as it was dragging on at that point and it's too early to assess any of those players picked in any draft IMO but you are right, Sullivan has been good, bearing in mind he's a mature pickup(28yo currently).

 

[Fadge]

After a decade of drafting in nothing of note that wasn't a FS/academy pick, I'd have looked for a competent list manager, for starters.

Then, I wouldn't have followed the WCE method of burning multiple first rounders on trades in to try and cash in on and old squad attempting to squeeze out one more flag, when it's obvious there's up and coming teams who have simply adapted to the modern game plan, already have a far superior squad and will only get better whilst my oldies all begin retiring, knowing I have nothing to replace them with.

How are Collingwood going to compete in future with Brisbane/Gold Coast, for instance? Sure, I disagree with the means they've been able to acquire their young talent but my opinion on that is irrelevant because they do have it and are only going to get better. They already have the core there to replace their aging stars with no issues whatsoever.
Collingwood doesn't have that(neither did WCE or Richmond), not do they have their recruitment advantages/luck(other than Daicos) so where does their list improvement and rejuvenation actually come from?

When would you have started all this?

 

[Fadge]

Can all the naysayers tell us who out of the following won't make it at AFL level?

DiMattia
Allan
Parker
Steele
Jiath
West
Harrison
Steene
Hayes
Howe
Anderson

I haven't listed our 18 year old draftees from this year.

Because we haven't seen enough of any of them to make a determination either way whilst we've been developing them in the VFL (as all strong clubs do), and if we get a handful of the above make the grade (including our draftees from this year) we're in good shape.

 

[bzparkes]

When would you have started all this?

Before Covid, for starters. Hine had way too many misses over a long period.

As for the trading out of first rounders? After the premiership I wouldn't have done any trades involving first rounders(Houston) and just gone for free agents(like Perryman, that's fine) whilst starting to replenish the list. Could've done a Hawthorn this year and traded back a couple of times during the '24 draft and accumulated picks, as clubs were desperate to trade into the first round of that draft.

After seeing how the 2020 draft was panning out for pretty much everyone over the previous 3 years, it was obvious that draft was a write off and there wasn't much coming through from previous years. Clearly there was a realisation of this in 2024 after Hine was moved on but it was a bit late by then, just like it was with WCE and RoB and his obsession with half back flankers.

 

[Cyclops]

What kids?

From 2020, it hasn't exactly gone exceedingly well.

2020 - Shocker year
ND:
Ollie Henry - Gone
Fin Macrae - Gone
Reef McInnes - Jury's out
Caleb Poulter - Gone
Liam McMahon - Gone
Rookie:
Jack Ginnivan - Pick of the lot but gone

2021 - Another terrible year, saved only by Naicos
MSD:
Ash Johnson - Gone
Aiden Begg - Gone
ND:
Arlo Draper - Gone
Cooper Murley - Gone
Harvey Harrison - Showed a bit in '24 before an untimely ACL. Jury's out
Rookie:
Charlie Dean - Gone
Isaac Chugg - Gone

2022 - Another mediocre result
ND:
Ed Allan - Looks ok but jury still out
Jakob Ryan - 1 game to his name. Jury still out
Joe Richards - Gone
Cooper Murley made some kind of comeback? - Gone anyway

2023 - Slim draft pickings due to trades
ND:
Harry DeMattia - Yet to debut. Jury out.
Tew Jiath - Played 1 game. Jury out
Cat B:
Wil Parker - Ok for a Cat B player

2024 - Entered the draft late again due to Houston trade
MSD - Iliro Smit - Development player. Too soon to call
Ned Long - Win
ND(all late picks):
Joel Cochran - Successful bid Sydney academy. Too soon to call
Charlie West - Too soon to call
William Hayes - Again, too soon to call

2025 - Entered draft late again due to Houston trade
MSD:
Roan Steele
ND:
Tyan Prindable - Brisbane academy, elected not to match
Sam Swadling - Too soon to call
Zac McCarthy - Too soon to call
Angus Anderson - To soon to call
Pre-listed rookies:
Jai Saxana - To soon to call



So to date, from the 2020 ND to this year, you've had 3 players you could count as wins. One of the was a father/son(Naicos) and 2 were rookie picks, of which one came from Hawthorn and the other went to Hawthorn.

Obviously too early to call '24/'25 and '23 isn't showing much to date.

So where's this 'young' talent coming from that'll take over from your senior players?

There's a reason Pendles and Sidebottom will probably play until they're 40+.

In fact, the further back you go, the worse it gets

Yes the further back you go the closer you get to our last flag squad.

This argument is bizarre. West Coast has remained anchored to the bottom and is picking up Collingwood reserves players for depth, while we shape up for another flag tilt, but this is somehow evidence we are over the cliff....but for real this time.

The better question is why did West Coast hold on to a burnt out coach for too long? My answer is loyalty. We held on to Bucks for too long too. Its a good thing and pays off in the long term. It also led to the burnt out list, who were retained when they were definitely past it eg Darling. Pendles had one disasterous game. Sidey had one down patch. Both played their part and Sidey was in AA contention in the first half of the season, so they weren't burnt out.

Pointing to the eagles and North at the bottom of the ladder as proof Collingwood are doomed is really odd.

Carlton have drafted fairly well, got Crippa (great pick) and lots of top 10s they refused to trade away. The blew their cap by pre-rating players this year after two very unlikely finals runs and are rebuilding again. Should we copy North, Eagles or Carlton? Or keep our hybrid Richmond/Geelong model limping along with regular top 4 finishes?

I'm really not interested in being like North or Carlton right now. We are like the eagles, rich and too loyal, but we are in a better spot with the coach. Coaches really really matter, as Fagan, McRae and above all Scott prove.

 

[bzparkes]

Can all the naysayers tell us who out of the following won't make it at AFL level?

DiMattia
Allan
Parker
Steele
Jiath
West
Harrison
Steene
Hayes
Howe
Anderson

I haven't listed our 18 year old draftees from this year.

Because we haven't seen enough of any of them to make a determination either way whilst we've been developing them in the VFL (as all strong clubs do), and if we get a handful of the above make the grade (including our draftees from this year) we're in good shape.

That's the point. They've whether been barely exposed to AFL, or not played at all. They're all taken with later picks(apart from Allan and DeMattia), so statistically are unlikely to make it and if they do, they'll most likely be role players at best.

There's nothing there that projects to replace your aging list.

nest year, Collingwood has a first rounder 2nd rounder and 3 4th rounders, so again nothing much to play with to bring in high end talent and not many of the current list has any significant trade value, outside of the Daicos brothers and maybe Quaynor.

If they start the H&A season in 2026 like they finished in 2025, then that spells real trouble, because Tassie enters(at this stage) after that and the draft will be slim pickings.

Do they trade again, with the limited assets they have, or do they try to replenish the list properly so they're not heavily reliant on blokes 35+?

 

[Robertio]

Can all the naysayers tell us who out of the following won't make it at AFL level?

DiMattia
Allan
Parker
Steele
Jiath
West
Harrison
Steene
Hayes
Howe
Anderson

I haven't listed our 18 year old draftees from this year.

Because we haven't seen enough of any of them to make a determination either way whilst we've been developing them in the VFL (as all strong clubs do), and if we get a handful of the above make the grade (including our draftees from this year) we're in good shape.

Most of them.

 

[bzparkes]

Yes the further back you go the closer you get to our last flag squad.

This argument is bizarre. West Coast has remained anchored to the bottom and is picking up Collingwood reserves players for depth, while we shape up for another flag tilt, but this is somehow evidence we are over the cliff....but for real this time.

Didn't watch Collingwood's 2nd half of the H&A season, I gather?

The better question is why did West Coast hold on to a burnt out coach for too long? My answer is loyalty. We held on to Bucks for too long too. Its a good thing and pays off in the long term. It also led to the burnt out list, who were retained when they were definitely past it eg Darling. Pendles had one disasterous game. Sidey had one down patch. Both played their part and Sidey was in AA contention in the first half of the season, so they weren't burnt out.

Yep, certainly many WCE supporters asked the same question regarding the coach and list management.

As for Pendlebury and Sidebottom, the end comes quickly for players of their age.

Pointing to the eagles and North at the bottom of the ladder as proof Collingwood are doomed is really odd.

Can't speak for North, because they just slashed and burned with no plan but Collingwood's current state is incredibly close to WCE's in 2021. In fact, the 2nd half of the season was eerily familiar, with an over reliance on older players and limping to the end of the season.

Carlton have drafted fairly well, got Crippa (great pick) and lots of top 10s they refused to trade away. The blew their cap by pre-rating players this year after two very unlikely finals runs and are rebuilding again. Should we copy North, Eagles or Carlton? Or keep our hybrid Richmond/Geelong model limping along with regular top 4 finishes?

Again, Collingwood's model is nothing like Geelong's because they usually keep their first rounders and have been good at identifying and developing talent over the past decade. Unlike Collingwood, they don't have an over-reliance of players over 35 in key positions and have brought younger players into the side to phase those older blokes out(Neale, Holmes, Dempsey, etc) of the main positions whilst blending them both in seniors.

Collingwood haven't done this at all, because they don't have the young talent to do this. Nearly a decade of failed drafting outside of a few FS and NGA picks has led to this point.

I'm really not interested in being like North or Carlton right now. We are like the eagles, rich and too loyal, but we are in a better spot with the coach. Coaches really really matter, as Fagan, McRae and above all Scott prove.

Your coach is running your team into the ground with his "I don't want picks, I want players" mantra. Watch him jump ship once the Collingwood list crashes and burns.

 

[Robertio]

That's the point. They've whether been barely exposed to AFL, or not played at all. They're all taken with later picks(apart from Allan and DeMattia), so statistically are unlikely to make it and if they do, they'll most likely be role players at best.

There's nothing there that projects to replace your aging list.

nest year, Collingwood has a first rounder 2nd rounder and 3 4th rounders, so again nothing much to play with to bring in high end talent and not many of the current list has any significant trade value, outside of the Daicos brothers and maybe Quaynor.

If they start the H&A season in 2026 like they finished in 2025, then that spells real trouble, because Tassie enters(at this stage) after that and the draft will be slim pickings.

Do they trade again, with the limited assets they have, or do they try to replenish the list properly so they're not heavily reliant on blokes 35+?

Good point mate, Pies are going to lose a lot of players over the next few seasons and haven't got the resources to cover all of them especially with Tassie coming in. Lets see how many of their young talent become regular AFL players.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

Can all the naysayers tell us who out of the following won't make it at AFL level?

DiMattia
Allan
Parker
Steele
Jiath
West
Harrison
Steene
Hayes
Howe
Anderson

I haven't listed our 18 year old draftees from this year.

Because we haven't seen enough of any of them to make a determination either way whilst we've been developing them in the VFL (as all strong clubs do), and if we get a handful of the above make the grade (including our draftees from this year) we're in good shape.

Other than Allan I’d be doubtful any will have any real impact and even Allan is a long way off.

 

[Fadge]

Before Covid, for starters.

Awesome.

So under your regime, the Pies miss out on the 2023 flag, and don't contend in 2022 or 2025 for the chance at another one.

I'm glad someone with your mindset isn't in charge at the club.

 

[Fadge]

Other than Allan I’d be doubtful any will have any real impact and even Allan is a long way off.

But the fact of the matter is, that you don't know do you?

 

[Fadge]

Most of them.

Woohoo.

Based on this poster's judgement, I'm now extremely bullish!

 

[Robertio]

But the fact of the matter is, that you don't know do you?

Typical, everyone else is wrong and you are right, well time will tell and you tell us who from that list you think will be 100 game AFL player, go.

 

[Fadge]

If they start the H&A season in 2026 like they finished in 2025, then that spells real trouble, because Tassie enters(at this stage) after that and the draft will be slim pickings.

Love this.

Apart from the Hawthorn game, the Pies had a heap of close losses to other finals teams, beat the top placed team, who had won 12 of their last 13 home and away games, in an away Qualifying Final, and were a Jamie Elliott non free away from being 6 points down with 8 minutes to go, with all the momentum, against the eventual premiers in a Preliminary Final.

Tell me more about starting 2026 the way we finished 2025?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Awesome.

So under your regime, the Pies miss out on the 2023 flag, and don't contend in 2022 or 2025 for the chance at another one.

I'm glad someone with your mindset isn't in charge at the club.

Been a while since I've read this much rubbish 🗑

Even Adam H aka Christian Boy has made another comeback

 

[bzparkes]

Awesome.

So under your regime, the Pies miss out on the 2023 flag, and don't contend in 2022 or 2025 for the chance at another one.

I'm glad someone with your mindset isn't in charge at the club.

How do they miss the flag?

No drafted player contributed to it, neither did any player after that time who was traded in for a first rounder, which was zero by the way.

Unless you think Jack Ginnivan's 7 disposals and one behind was the difference between Collingwood winning and losing in 2023, of course.

 

[Fadge]

Typical, everyone else is wrong and you are right, well time will tell and you tell us who from that list you think will be 100 game AFL player, go.

Nope, not at all.

I don't know either.

But I do know Collingwood have a strong record of developing players and recruiting for needs, so I'm nowhere near as pessimistic as others on here, who would have blown up the joint 5 years ago, and missed the 2023 flag (but then we MIGHT be reasonable again in 2028...)

 

[Corn Cobbers]

But the fact of the matter is, that you don't know do you?

He's still crying over 2010

 

[bzparkes]

Love this.

Apart from the Hawthorn game, the Pies had a heap of close losses to other finals teams, beat the top placed team, who had won 12 of their last 13 home and away games, in an away Qualifying Final, and were a Jamie Elliott non free away from being 6 points down with 8 minutes to go, with all the momentum, against the eventual premiers in a Preliminary Final.

Tell me more about starting 2026 the way we finished 2025?

"Jamie Elliott non-free"

Are you talking about Starcevich's perfect spoil?

Worry more about your team's H&A form than a prelim finals loss by 29 points.

At home and off a break, vs a team who had to travel twice, no less.