USA AOC, Bernie Sanders and Zohran Mamdani. The need for strong progressive voices in US politics.

[IlovethePies]

nonsense. you need to get out more. try sweden, denmark, and norway as your starting point

The Scandinavian governments have nothing to do with socialism.
All of them now are rearming for war against Russia.

Nordic countries respond to deepening Europe-US rift with calls for European military capabilities, rearmament

The Nordic countries in particular have long viewed close relations with Washington as fundamental to their military and security interests. But the breakdown in relations between America and Europe is having a major impact on these countries, which are responding by launching major rearmament...

www.wsws.org

All of them are taking up a war against immigrants and asylum seekers.

https://www.actionpal.org.uk/en/post/14030/sweden-s-right-wing-government-no-support-for-immigrants-before-five-years-of-residence

All of them are attacking social spending and dismantling the welfare state to which you are referring:

New government takes power in Sweden with backing of far-right Sweden Democrats

The right-wing Moderate Party has come to power with the support of the far-right Sweden Democrats. Moderate leader Ulf Kristersson won the narrow backing of parliament to become prime minister.

www.wsws.org

 

[Seeds]

Does gavin newsome count as a strong progressive voice?

 

[BomToydd]

Does gavin newsome count as a strong progressive voice?

Nah. Love the way he stands up to trump and maga but has all the charisma of a used car salesman and platforming people like Kirk and Bannon and throwing trans and homeless people under the bus isn't progressive

 

[spinynorman]

To be fair to Zohran, I got the impression he was basically stunned by Trump's glazing of him and didn't really know how to react.

 

[faible]

Mamdani in his recent meeting with Donald Trump. All smiles and praise for the fascist Trump coming from the mouth of Mamdani.

In the course of this meeting with Trump, Mamdani did not mention one word of disagreement when Trump explained that both he and Mamdani would work together to get rid of "horrible people" (immigrants) who make NY City unsafe. Trump even said: "He (Mamdani) wants to get them out even more than I do", with Mamdani giving his agreement through his silence.

At the end of the press conference, Mamdani declared his determination to "root out antisemitism", lending legitimacy to the claim that oppositon to the Gaza genocide is anti-semitism. Yet this is a man who partially owes his election to his claims to oppose the genocide in Gaza.

Mamdani was willing to publicly declare that he and Trump have a "shared goal" of addressing NY's affordability crisis. As if the Trump administration, which deliberately slashed food stamps to 42 million vulnerable americans, and is in the process of destroying public health and public education, firing thousands of Federal workers and forcing tens of thousands to work for nothing during the shutdown, will now help to make NY City "affordable". Politically, Mamdani is playing a despicable role, by giving the Trump administration some kind of credibility, and confusing his own supporters who hate Trump.

The lowlight of Mamdani's meeting with Trump was when a reporter asked Mamdani if he stood by his previous statements that Trump was a fascist. As Mamdani mumbled to give a coherent answer, Trump intervened on his behalf, saying: "That’s OK, you can just say it. It is easier than explaining it. I don’t mind.” Trump then patted Mamdani on the arm, as Madmani smiled. Thus the pair jointly agreed that Trump is a fascist, but that this would be no hindrance to their blooming “partnership.”

It has only taken 2 weeks for the fraud of Mamdani to be exposed. This meeting between Mamdani and trump will be recorded by future historians as a critical moment in the process through which the Democratic Socialists such as AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Mamdani are exposed as the political criminals they are for attempting to deceive the working class that reforms can be achieved by pressuring/cajoling etc capitalist politicians.

No one, ever, will meet your standard of idealistic perfection. Your movement will achieve nothing in the real world because you will never, ever find a candidate that has the perfection you demand.

Politics is about the plausible, not the perfect.

Mamdani hasn't even started yet, perhaps wait until you see what he does before melting down about it.

I will warn you though, he won't be perfect. Because perfect is impossible.

 

[faible]

Does gavin newsome count as a strong progressive voice?

Newsom is fairly conservative by Australian standards, he's a pretty stock standard US Democrat which would be largely centre-right. There's not a lot of economically progressive democrats.

 

[DaTBird187]

No one, ever, will meet your standard of idealistic perfection.

I really don't think they're calling for that. Just not brown would suffice.

 

[Not Important]

The Scandinavian governments have nothing to do with socialism.
All of them now are rearming for war against Russia.

Nordic countries respond to deepening Europe-US rift with calls for European military capabilities, rearmament

The Nordic countries in particular have long viewed close relations with Washington as fundamental to their military and security interests. But the breakdown in relations between America and Europe is having a major impact on these countries, which are responding by launching major rearmament...

www.wsws.org

All of them are taking up a war against immigrants and asylum seekers.

https://www.actionpal.org.uk/en/post/14030/sweden-s-right-wing-government-no-support-for-immigrants-before-five-years-of-residence

All of them are attacking social spending and dismantling the welfare state to which you are referring:

New government takes power in Sweden with backing of far-right Sweden Democrats

The right-wing Moderate Party has come to power with the support of the far-right Sweden Democrats. Moderate leader Ulf Kristersson won the narrow backing of parliament to become prime minister.

www.wsws.org

classical socialism is of a bygone era. the nordic countries are better described as progressive socialists or social democracies. they have universal tax-funded healthcare and education, extensive social insurance - pensions, unemployment, and sickness benefits. agreements between unions, employers and the state to set labor and welfare policies so workers aren't screwed. they are high-income and low-poverty. and they have strong protections for workers, progressive family policies

no one suggests they don't have flaws.sweden is undergoing change which has a lot to do with immigration, integration and crime - a worldwide issue. the social democrats have been in power for the vast majority of the last 7 or so decades. and remain the single largest party following the last election.

 

[Not Important]

Newsom is fairly conservative by Australian standards, he's a pretty stock standard US Democrat which would be largely centre-right. There's not a lot of economically progressive democrats.

and he's no progressive. in many respects, he's a corporate democrat.

 

[Not Important]

"BREAKING: AOC on MTG retiring:

"She's carefully timing her departure just 1-2 days after her pension kicks in and after making millions of dollars insider trading stocks for weapons manufacturers and others while in office. She is saying a lot but her ACTIONS have not backed up the rhetoric. For all her talk, she's STILL voting with them to gut healthcare and advance self-dealing corruption schemes."

 

[Not Important]

and the despot is cosying up to zohran out of concern that his image is heading down the toilet and seeking some reflected glory. everything trump does has self-interest at the core.

Qasim Rashid, Esq. (@qasimrashid)

Zohran Mamdani marched into the Oval Office and, without blinking, made clear that the Israeli government is committing genocide with funding from the U.S. Government. He said while standing next to Donald Trump, moments after calling him a fascist, and staying unwaveringly committed to his...

substack.com

 

[faible]

I really don't think they're calling for that. Just not brown would suffice.

I've seen enough of that users posting, there is absolutely no one that would pass the bar they require. It's total and utter ideological perfection, or nothing.

He's already ranting and raving about Mamdani before Mamdani is even in office to actually do (or not do) anything.

Ideological purity is a deeply impractical perspective to hold.

 

[IlovethePies]

and the despot is cosying up to zohran out of concern that his image is heading down the toilet and seeking some reflected glory. everything trump does has self-interest at the core.

Qasim Rashid, Esq. (@qasimrashid)

Zohran Mamdani marched into the Oval Office and, without blinking, made clear that the Israeli government is committing genocide with funding from the U.S. Government. He said while standing next to Donald Trump, moments after calling him a fascist, and staying unwaveringly committed to his...

substack.com

So don't you think that Mamdani has betrayed all those who voted for him by giving Trump exactly what he wanted, ie some kind of reflected glory??

 

[IlovethePies]

I've seen enough of that users posting, there is absolutely no one that would pass the bar they require. It's total and utter ideological perfection, or nothing.

He's already ranting and raving about Mamdani before Mamdani is even in office to actually do (or not do) anything.

Ideological purity is a deeply impractical perspective to hold.

Are you serious? So you think that Mamdani's willingness to now collaborate with a fascist (he has publicly acknowledged Trump to be one), his willingness to maintain Jessica Titsch (an ally of Trump) in charge of NY police, his open embrace of Trump's bogus peace plan in Gaza and his agreement with Trump that "horrible people"(ie immigrants) need to be removed from NY, you think all of that is merely a slight divergence from perfection which we should overlook because after all Mamdani has promised that he cares about affordability in NY and he even shares a vision with Trump for solving it??
Sounds more like Stalin who did a deal with the devil when he signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler.

 

[faible]

Are you serious? So you think that Mamdani's willingness to now collaborate with a fascist (he has publicly acknowledged Trump to be one), his willingness to maintain Jessica Titsch (an ally of Trump) in charge of NY police, his open embrace of Trump's bogus peace plan in Gaza and his agreement with Trump that "horrible people"(ie immigrants) need to be removed from NY, you think all of that is merely a slight divergence from perfection which we should overlook because after all Mamdani has promised that he cares about affordability in NY and he even shares a vision with Trump for solving it??
Sounds more like Stalin who did a deal with the devil when he signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler.

He's already ranting and raving about Mamdani before Mamdani is even in office to actually do (or not do) anything.

 

[Not Important]

 

[Not Important]

 

[CM86]

So don't you think that Mamdani has betrayed all those who voted for him by giving Trump exactly what he wanted, ie some kind of reflected glory??View attachment 2485050

I feel like you would have attacked any 'left' person who didn't endorse Mamdani, and you would have used it as a reason to oppose all Democrats in general.
And now you'd attack anyone supporting Mamdani after winning, and use it as a reason to oppose all Democrats.


Is it possible that you just oppose US Democrats in general, and look for excuses for your position?

 

[IlovethePies]

I feel like you would have attacked any 'left' person who didn't endorse Mamdani, and you would have used it as a reason to oppose all Democrats in general.
And now you'd attack anyone supporting Mamdani after winning, and use it as a reason to oppose all Democrats.


Is it possible that you just oppose US Democrats in general, and look for excuses for your position?

Of course I oppose the Democrats.
I don't need excuses to oppose the Democrats, because they are just as much a party of the US financial oligarchy as are the Republicans.

Trump is only able to carry out his attacks on the US constitution and democratic rights because of their complicity and cowardice.

As for Mamdani, he is an appendage of the Democrats. He is a wretched fraud, who will be exposed before millions very rapidly. Hundreds of thousands have placed their hopes in this political charlatan, and they will soon realise that they have been radically deceived.

It was a sickening sight to watch him standing beside Trump and beaming, endorsing his new "partnership" with Trump, and declaring that they have a "shared vision" for NY.

During his election campaign, Mamdani was calling Trump a fascist. But now, this apparently is no barrier to collaborating with him.

Future historians will underline the moment that Mamdani publicly declared his "shared vision" with a fascist as a significant one when recounting how Mamdani utterly betrayed everything he claimed to stand for.

At the same meeting, Trump claimed that his bogus "peace plan" in Gaza was bringing peace to the Middle East for the first time in 3,000 years. This from Trump, one of the main supporters of the genocide. Yet Mamdani simply replied: "I welcome all efforts for peace".

This is a total betrayal of all those who voted for him as mayor. Mamdani's claims to oppose the Gaza genocide was one of the main factors in his popularity. It turns out now that he has no opposition whatsoever to Trump's "peace plan". In other words, he has no argument with the continuing genocide in Gaza - Israel continues to murder Palestinians on a daily basis despite the so called ceasefire, and Trump's plan is nothing other than a formula for the colonial domination of the Palestinians, jointly under both Israel and under US imperialism.

Mamdani is part of the Democratic Socialists, which is itself a faction within the Democrats. It is that faction which advocates for a "left facade" to keep the working class hoping that somehow it is possible to pressure the Democrats to oppose Trump.

This is a total lie, and we are going to see this play out very rapidly.

 

[CM86]

Of course I oppose the Democrats.
I don't need excuses to oppose the Democrats, because they are just as much a party of the US financial oligarchy as are the Republicans.

Trump is only able to carry out his attacks on the US constitution and democratic rights because of their complicity and cowardice.

As for Mamdani, he is an appendage of the Democrats. He is a wretched fraud, who will be exposed before millions very rapidly. Hundreds of thousands have placed their hopes in this political charlatan, and they will soon realise that they have been radically deceived.

It was a sickening sight to watch him standing beside Trump and beaming, endorsing his new "partnership" with Trump, and declaring that they have a "shared vision" for NY.

During his election campaign, Mamdani was calling Trump a fascist. But now, this apparently is no barrier to collaborating with him.

At the same meeting, Trump claimed that his bogus "peace plan" in Gaza was bringing peace to the Middle East for the first time in 3,000 years. This from Trump, one of the main supporters of the genocide. Yet Mamdani simply replied: "I welcome all efforts for peace".

This is a total betrayal of all those who voted for him as mayor. Mamdani's claims to oppose the Gaza genocide was one of the main factors in his popularity. It turns out now that he has no opposition whatsoever to Trump's "peace plan". In other words, he has no argument with the continuing genocide in Gaza - Israel continues to murder Palestinians on a daily basis despite the so called ceasefire, and Trump's plan is nothing other than a formula for the colonial domination of the Palestinians, jointly under both Israel and under US imperialism.

Mamdani is part of the Democratic Socialists, which is itself a faction within the Democrats. It is that faction which advocates for a "left facade" to keep the working class hoping that somehow it is possible to pressure the Democrats to oppose Trump.

This is a total lie, and we are going to see this play out very rapidly.

So you must now support anyone who didn't endorse Mamdani, right?

 

[IlovethePies]

So you must now support anyone who didn't endorse Mamdani, right?

No. Trump did not endorse Mamdani and I am utterly opposed to Trump.

I am criticising Mamdani from the left.

Hopefully you understand that.

 

[CM86]

No. Trump did not endorse Mamdani and I am utterly opposed to Trump.

I am criticising Mamdani from the left.

Hopefully you understand that.

Of course.

So you'd support anyone on the 'left' who refused to endorse Mamdani, because they knew more about him than the public and you?
Or do you still condemn them for not endorsing Mamdani, who you now hate?

 

[IlovethePies]

Of course.

So you'd support anyone on the 'left' who refused to endorse Mamdani, because they knew more about him than the public and you?
Or do you still condemn them for not endorsing Mamdani, who you now hate?

I have always opposed the Democratic Socialists.

The wsws is the only left political tendency that opposes Mamdani. That is why the wsws is the genuine left opposition to capitalism.

Every other political tendency claiming to be "left wing" supports Mamdani and deliberately attempts to deceive the population by promoting false illusions in him.

All of these tendencies belong to the fake left.

The fake left plays a despicable political role. They provide the left cover for the Democrats, who in turn facilitate Trump.

 

[CM86]

I have always opposed the Democratic Socialists.

The wsws is the only left political tendency that opposes Mamdani. That is why the wsws is the genuine left opposition to capitalism.

Every other political tendency claiming to be "left wing" supports Mamdani and deliberately attempts to deceive the population by promoting false illusions in him.

All of these tendencies belong to the fake left.

The fake left plays a despicable political role. They provide the left cover for the Democrats, who in turn facilitate Trump.

I totally agree. The 'fake left' are a cancer on society and an aspect of weaponised social media.


But I'd argue that you are an aspect of 'fake left', in that you do nothing but support extreme right regimes like Putin, while constantly posting misinformation about actual 'left' outcomes.

You only ever attack the 'left', as not being good enough, while your values and positions seem to be more of a right-wing/libertarian position.

As in you'd argue against vaccination as Government overreach, while supporting the forced removal of children from Ukraine by the invading force.

 

[IlovethePies]

I totally agree. The 'fake left' are a cancer on society and an aspect of weaponised social media.


But I'd argue that you are an aspect of 'fake left', in that you do nothing but support extreme right regimes like Putin, while constantly posting misinformation about actual 'left' outcomes.

You only ever attack the 'left', as not being good enough, while your values and positions seem to be more of a right-wing neo-liberal position.

As in you'd argue against vaccination as Government overreach, while supporting the forced removal of children from Ukraine by the invading force.

You are clueless

My views are those of genuine socialism, genuine opposition to capitalism.

a) I have always made it clear that i oppose Putin just like I oppose Zelensky.

b) I attack the "fake left", and a moment ago you just said they were a cancer on society.
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

c) Quote from you:

"As in you'd argue against vaccination as Government overreach, while supporting the forced removal of children from Ukraine by the invading force."

What rubbish.

What is your evidence for such defamatory claims? Please produce it, while i get out my popcorn.