Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[Mynamesinuse]

Yeah.

Every person who votes on every individual award (who consistently have Daicos amongst the top 3), and every person who ranks the relative ability of players playing the game (who all have Daicos in the top 2) are wrong, and the Player Ratings algorithm (who had Bobby Hill as the 15th best player on the ground in the 2023 Grand Final) is right....

Awards are terrible

Viney 3 Votes…..

 

[Mynamesinuse]

They need to develop another midfielder and move past building their entire fwd transition around one player in Daicos.
He’s a great player but not getting a kick in the final quarter of a prelim when the game is on the line…as the number 1 mid for a team.
That’s not going to get it done.

Ned Long apparently

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yeah.

Every person who votes on every individual award (who consistently have Daicos amongst the top 3), and every person who ranks the relative ability of players playing the game (who all have Daicos in the top 2) are wrong, and the Player Ratings algorithm (who had Bobby Hill as the 15th best player on the ground in the 2023 Grand Final) is right....

Oh dear. Fadge has already dropped Daicos being over-rated by player ratings in his most recent game as his evidence in chief to support his assertion that player ratings under-rates Daicos. Predictable from Fadge, but very sensible, as let's face it, that was a bit of a massive faux pas, own goal, self-foot shooting incident by Fadge.

This is the self same Fadge remember who hilariously made the following false claim today on this thread:

Yeah, i base my opinions on actual performance, not want i want my narrative to be, nor how i hope players perform in the future...

Fadge has now officially returned to his old chestnut, Bobby Hill's moderate 2023 Grand Final rating as his chief piece of evidence in support of why the player ratings fails to be taken in by the Daicos myth. How terrible of the player ratings to have noticed Mr Hill was not the principle reason for the 4 goals he kicked.

The other question this thread should be now asking is do Collingwood need to do a total rebuild of their supporter base?

 

[Fadge]

How terrible of the player ratings to have noticed Mr Hill was not the principle reason for the 4 goals he kicked.

How could I forget that other players kicked them for him? Including taking the hanger that led to one of his goals....

Not to mention the dish off to Pendlebury when he could have kicked his 5th...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How could I forget that other players kicked them for him? Including taking the hanger that led to one of his goals....

Not to mention the dish off to Pendlebury when he could have kicked his 5th...

I see so in this particular game when a team-mate gave the ball off to Bobby Hill to finish the play, that was all Bobby's great work. But when Bobby gave the ball off to the only non-defender to ever player 30 finals without scoring 10 goals, for Pendlebury to finish, that was also all Bobby.

We get it Fadge. You think player ratings are wrong even though you never make sense when you try to explain why.

 

[Robroy22]

Glad you finally are seeing reason.

We can lock the Daicos thread, revist it in a few years when more information about Daicos progression is known.

All in favour....say I....

 

[Mr.X]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

 

[Peters_Nuts]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

It's as simple as this really. I think we'll be top 4-6 in 2026 but if we don't see kids demanding a spot over players like Sidebottom and Howe AND we miss the 8 or go out in week 1 of finals, then it's very concerning.

I suspect we're banking on free agency to bring in talent at the end of this year. If we fail to do so though and we have a down season in 2026 then alarm bells should be ringing.

 

[Robertio]

It's as simple as this really. I think we'll be top 4-6 in 2026 but if we don't see kids demanding a spot over players like Sidebottom and Howe AND we miss the 8 or go out in week 1 of finals, then it's very concerning.

I suspect we're banking on free agency to bring in talent at the end of this year. If we fail to do so though and we have a down season in 2026 then alarm bells should be ringing.

 

[ShereKhan]

I have previously stated that whilst Martin only performed as the best player in the game in 2017, he was considered the best player in the game between 2017 and 2020.

Yeah, this is where it's all a bit amusing.

In 2019 Martin averages 26 disposals, 1.39 x goals, 1 x goal assist.

He's 5th for average coaches votes/game, 4th in Player Ratings, 7th in the Brownlow - remarkable for someone not playing permanent midfield.

For mid-fwds, general forwards in 2019:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 16.77. Walters on 14.59. GAJ on 13.51.
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 23 votes. GAJ on 13. Walters on 11.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.91. Cameron on 2.42. Walters on 2.32.

He kicks 6-goal straight in a QF win at the GABBA, then has 22 and kicks 2-goals in the PF against Geelong, then has 22 and kicks 4-goals in a Norm Smith winning performance. He wins the Gary Ayres Award.

In 2020 Martin averages 21 disposals, 1.1 x goals, 0.7 x goal assist. (25% reduced game time).

He's 6th for average coaches votes/game, 6th in Player Ratings, =5th in the Brownlow.

For mid-fwds, general forwards:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 14.38. Breust on 11.02. Wingard on 10.85
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 15 votes. Greene on 12. Butler on 8.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.50. Greene on 2.62. L Ryan on 2.44.

Then after losing the QF, he goes BOG, BOG, BOG in 3 x consecutive finals, wins a NS and Gary Ayres Award.

So you can have your accumulating mids who might've got more Brownlow votes or meeeeddddyyyaaaa love - but Martin was easily the best player in 2017, 2019 and 2020. Stats back this up. Eye test backs this up. Performance back this up. Finals backs this up. Flags back this up.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah, this is where it's all a bit amusing.

In 2019 Martin averages 26 disposals, 1.39 x goals, 1 x goal assist.

He's 5th for average coaches votes/game, 4th in Player Ratings, 7th in the Brownlow - remarkable for someone not playing permanent midfield.

For mid-fwds, general forwards in 2019:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 16.77. Walters on 14.59. GAJ on 13.51.
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 23 votes. GAJ on 13. Walters on 11.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.91. Cameron on 2.42. Walters on 2.32.

He kicks 6-goal straight in a QF win at the GABBA, then has 22 and kicks 2-goals in the PF against Geelong, then has 22 and kicks 4-goals in a Norm Smith winning performance. He wins the Gary Ayres Award.

In 2020 Martin averages 21 disposals, 1.1 x goals, 0.7 x goal assist. (25% reduced game time).

He's 6th for average coaches votes/game, 6th in Player Ratings, =5th in the Brownlow.

For mid-fwds, general forwards:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 14.38. Breust on 11.02. Wingard on 10.85
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 15 votes. Greene on 12. Butler on 8.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.50. Greene on 2.62. L Ryan on 2.44.

Then after losing the QF, he goes BOG, BOG, BOG in 3 x consecutive finals, wins a NS and Gary Ayres Award.

So you can have your accumulating mids who might've got more Brownlow votes or meeeeddddyyyaaaa love - but Martin was easily the best player in 2017, 2019 and 2020. Stats back this up. Eye test backs this up. Performance back this up. Finals backs this up. Flags back this up.

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

Again that’s not true.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

So do you rate Marin’s 2016 year better than 2017 based on the fact Martin played effectively as a full time mid and his stats reflect a boost in those categories relative to more midfield time and lower stats around scoring

 

[Fadge]

So do you rate Marin’s 2016 year better than 2017 based on the fact Martin played effectively as a full time mid and his stats reflect a boost in those categories relative to more midfield time and lower stats around scoring

Huh?

Clearly Martin's 2017 was his best season, where he was the best player in the league for the full season.

And I don't have to filter out any other positions or players when making that statement.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

The words of Johnny Giles (legendary Irish Leeds United player and soccer analyst) springs to mind here when i think of Nick Daicos. A good player not a great player.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

The decline might happen this year yet god willing.

 

[Cyclops]

The decline might happen this year yet god willing.

Not when we get to play you twice.

Inshallah Carlton makes the finals and we get a third freebie.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Not when we get to play you twice.

Inshallah Carlton makes the finals and we get a third freebie.

The wheels will turn our way eventually again and the natural order of things shall be restored.

 

[doppleganger]

I wonder how they performed in finals...

All games are included as it is a career rating

No shame being the worst of those three greats though. .

 

[Fadge]

All games are included as it is a career rating

No shame being the worst of those three greats though. .

Both have one deserved Norm Smith, and Pendlebury more instrumental in a second Grand Final win than Martin was in either of his other two, and against much better competition.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

All games are included as it is a career rating

No shame being the worst of those three greats though. .

Breaking news: Doppleganger treats player ratings as be all and end all in several posts; refuses to publish crucial finals ratings.


We can now bring you the crucial and highly revealing finals ratings of the 3 players in question.

Pendlebury from 19 finals(excluding his 0.0 rating hamstring ping final.) Average player rating 14.0

Sloane from 9 finals. Average player rating 15.5.

Martin from 16 finals. Average player rating a world record 19.34.

And just in our investigative journalists have been able to confirm Martin's finals dominance due to eliciting that he also has record finals coaches votes, a record amount of Gary Ayres Medals for best player in finals and a record amount of Norm Smith Medals for Best on Ground in a Grand Final.

Our investigators are currently working on finding an answer to the question of why Scott Pendlebury has performed below his home and away average in finals, where Sloane performed above his career average in finals and Martin way above his career average in finals.

We can now live cross to self proclaimed football expert Fadge to explain why this matters:

Fadge - It matters because finals matches are not only the most important games, they are played between the best teams. But even more importantly, it is in these games and only these games that the Premiership winning team is decided in each season.

Meteoric News - Do you think that is right and fair?

Fadge - Most definitely not. It is unfair to teams and players who cannot lift their game in finals.

Meteoric News - Like Collingwood, and Scott Pendlebury you mean?

Fadge - Yes, and it puts great finals players and teams like Dustin Martin and Richmond at a massive advantage in terms of winning Premierships.

Meteoric News - Thanks Fadge for your insightful as always opinion confirming that finals performances trumps all and when it comes to finals performance, Dustin Martin trumps everyone. Oh, one more thing, do you think it would just be easier for Collingwood to rebuild their team with great finals players rather than always pushing on a string trying to win Grand Finals by performing consistently well in all other matches and consistently pathetically in Grand Finals?

Fadge - I guess that would make some sense, yes.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Both have one deserved Norm Smith, and Pendlebury more instrumental in a second Grand Final win than Martin was in either of his other two, and against much better competition.

Confirmed: Fadge thinks Scott Pendlebury is a better Grand Final player than Dustin Martin.

 

[Fadge]

Breaking news: Doppleganger treats player ratings as be all and end all in several posts; refuses to publish crucial finals ratings.


We can now bring you the crucial and highly revealing finals ratings of the 3 players in question.

Pendlebury from 19 finals(excluding his 0.0 rating hamstring ping final.) Average player rating 14.0

Sloane from 9 finals. Average player rating 15.5.

Martin from 16 finals. Average player rating a world record 19.34.

And just in our investigative journalists have been able to confirm Martin's finals dominance due to eliciting that he also has record finals coaches votes, a record amount of Gary Ayres Medals for best player in finals and a record amount of Norm Smith Medals for Best on Ground in a Grand Final.

Our investigators are currently working on finding an answer to the question of why Scott Pendlebury has performed below his home and away average in finals, where Sloane performed above his career average in finals and Martin way above his career average in finals.

We can now live cross to self proclaimed football expert Fadge to explain why this matters:

Fadge - It matters because finals matches are not only the most important games, they are played between the best teams. But even more importantly, it is in these games and only these games that the Premiership winning team is decided in each season.

Meteoric News - Do you think that is right and fair?

Fadge - Most definitely not. It is unfair to teams and players who cannot lift their game in finals.

Meteoric News - Like Collingwood, and Scott Pendlebury you mean?

Fadge - Yes, and it puts great finals players and teams like Dustin Martin and Richmond at a massive advantage in terms of winning Premierships.

Meteoric News - Thanks Fadge for your insightful as always opinion confirming that finals performances trumps all and when it comes to finals performance, Dustin Martin trumps everyone. Oh, one more thing, do you think it would just be easier for Collingwood to rebuild their team with great finals players rather than always pushing on a string trying to win Grand Finals by performing consistently well in all other matches and consistently pathetically in Grand Finals?

Fadge - I guess that would make some sense, yes.

Pretty sure Pendlebury has played more than a mere 19 finals?

Oh yes, yes he has. Including a Norm Smith Medal game that was excluded from the calculations.

And also a 38 disposal Qualifying Final that was excluded from the calculations.

Why did you not highlight those omissions?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Pretty sure Pendlebury has played more than a mere 19 finals?

Oh yes, yes he has. Including a Norm Smith Medal game that was excluded from the calculations.

And also a 38 disposal Qualifying Final that was excluded from the calculations.

Why did you not highlight those omissions?

I was merely following the conversation started by doppleganger

But Fadge is now going to go back to games prior to 2012 and substitute Fadge ratings for the official player ratings.

Fadge will also explain to us why Pendlebury is a champion because he played so long past his best, but playing past his best has caused his averages to fall below champion level. If it doesn't sound logical, don't worry, it is perfectly fadgical, ie it makes perfect sense in fadge's alternative logic, AKA fagic.

While I have you here Fadge, any danger the Pies might rebuild with some finals guns to minimise the likelihood of a continuation of the finals yips that have seen them win 2 Grand Finals in the last 67 years?

 

[Fadge]

Some interesting data....

Here are the best 30 finals games played by Martin and Pendlebury:


Top 10 games - 5 each for Martin and Pendlebury.
Top 20 games - 11 for Pendlebury, 9 for Martin.
Top 30 games - 18 for Pendlebury, 12 for Martin.

Quite impressive for Pendlebury, given 80% of Martin's finals were played whilst he was in the prime of his career (13 finals when he was 26 to 29 years old), whilst Pendlebury played 80% of his finals outside the prime of his career (0 finals when he was 26 to 29 years old).

Interesting side note - Pendlebury's 5 best finals of his career were from pre-2012... (pre availability of PLaYeR RaTiNGZ).