Do Collingwood need to enter a rebuild phase?

[Mynamesinuse]

Yeah.

Every person who votes on every individual award (who consistently have Daicos amongst the top 3), and every person who ranks the relative ability of players playing the game (who all have Daicos in the top 2) are wrong, and the Player Ratings algorithm (who had Bobby Hill as the 15th best player on the ground in the 2023 Grand Final) is right....

Awards are terrible

Viney 3 Votes…..

 

[Mynamesinuse]

They need to develop another midfielder and move past building their entire fwd transition around one player in Daicos.
He’s a great player but not getting a kick in the final quarter of a prelim when the game is on the line…as the number 1 mid for a team.
That’s not going to get it done.

Ned Long apparently

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yeah.

Every person who votes on every individual award (who consistently have Daicos amongst the top 3), and every person who ranks the relative ability of players playing the game (who all have Daicos in the top 2) are wrong, and the Player Ratings algorithm (who had Bobby Hill as the 15th best player on the ground in the 2023 Grand Final) is right....

Oh dear. Fadge has already dropped Daicos being over-rated by player ratings in his most recent game as his evidence in chief to support his assertion that player ratings under-rates Daicos. Predictable from Fadge, but very sensible, as let's face it, that was a bit of a massive faux pas, own goal, self-foot shooting incident by Fadge.

This is the self same Fadge remember who hilariously made the following false claim today on this thread:

Yeah, i base my opinions on actual performance, not want i want my narrative to be, nor how i hope players perform in the future...

Fadge has now officially returned to his old chestnut, Bobby Hill's moderate 2023 Grand Final rating as his chief piece of evidence in support of why the player ratings fails to be taken in by the Daicos myth. How terrible of the player ratings to have noticed Mr Hill was not the principle reason for the 4 goals he kicked.

The other question this thread should be now asking is do Collingwood need to do a total rebuild of their supporter base?

 

[Fadge]

How terrible of the player ratings to have noticed Mr Hill was not the principle reason for the 4 goals he kicked.

How could I forget that other players kicked them for him? Including taking the hanger that led to one of his goals....

Not to mention the dish off to Pendlebury when he could have kicked his 5th...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

How could I forget that other players kicked them for him? Including taking the hanger that led to one of his goals....

Not to mention the dish off to Pendlebury when he could have kicked his 5th...

I see so in this particular game when a team-mate gave the ball off to Bobby Hill to finish the play, that was all Bobby's great work. But when Bobby gave the ball off to the only non-defender to ever player 30 finals without scoring 10 goals, for Pendlebury to finish, that was also all Bobby.

We get it Fadge. You think player ratings are wrong even though you never make sense when you try to explain why.

 

[Robroy22]

Glad you finally are seeing reason.

We can lock the Daicos thread, revist it in a few years when more information about Daicos progression is known.

All in favour....say I....

 

[Mr.X]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

 

[Peters_Nuts]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

It's as simple as this really. I think we'll be top 4-6 in 2026 but if we don't see kids demanding a spot over players like Sidebottom and Howe AND we miss the 8 or go out in week 1 of finals, then it's very concerning.

I suspect we're banking on free agency to bring in talent at the end of this year. If we fail to do so though and we have a down season in 2026 then alarm bells should be ringing.

 

[Robertio]

It's as simple as this really. I think we'll be top 4-6 in 2026 but if we don't see kids demanding a spot over players like Sidebottom and Howe AND we miss the 8 or go out in week 1 of finals, then it's very concerning.

I suspect we're banking on free agency to bring in talent at the end of this year. If we fail to do so though and we have a down season in 2026 then alarm bells should be ringing.

 

[ShereKhan]

I have previously stated that whilst Martin only performed as the best player in the game in 2017, he was considered the best player in the game between 2017 and 2020.

Yeah, this is where it's all a bit amusing.

In 2019 Martin averages 26 disposals, 1.39 x goals, 1 x goal assist.

He's 5th for average coaches votes/game, 4th in Player Ratings, 7th in the Brownlow - remarkable for someone not playing permanent midfield.

For mid-fwds, general forwards in 2019:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 16.77. Walters on 14.59. GAJ on 13.51.
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 23 votes. GAJ on 13. Walters on 11.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.91. Cameron on 2.42. Walters on 2.32.

He kicks 6-goal straight in a QF win at the GABBA, then has 22 and kicks 2-goals in the PF against Geelong, then has 22 and kicks 4-goals in a Norm Smith winning performance. He wins the Gary Ayres Award.

In 2020 Martin averages 21 disposals, 1.1 x goals, 0.7 x goal assist. (25% reduced game time).

He's 6th for average coaches votes/game, 6th in Player Ratings, =5th in the Brownlow.

For mid-fwds, general forwards:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 14.38. Breust on 11.02. Wingard on 10.85
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 15 votes. Greene on 12. Butler on 8.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.50. Greene on 2.62. L Ryan on 2.44.

Then after losing the QF, he goes BOG, BOG, BOG in 3 x consecutive finals, wins a NS and Gary Ayres Award.

So you can have your accumulating mids who might've got more Brownlow votes or meeeeddddyyyaaaa love - but Martin was easily the best player in 2017, 2019 and 2020. Stats back this up. Eye test backs this up. Performance back this up. Finals backs this up. Flags back this up.

 

[Fadge]

Yeah, this is where it's all a bit amusing.

In 2019 Martin averages 26 disposals, 1.39 x goals, 1 x goal assist.

He's 5th for average coaches votes/game, 4th in Player Ratings, 7th in the Brownlow - remarkable for someone not playing permanent midfield.

For mid-fwds, general forwards in 2019:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 16.77. Walters on 14.59. GAJ on 13.51.
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 23 votes. GAJ on 13. Walters on 11.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.91. Cameron on 2.42. Walters on 2.32.

He kicks 6-goal straight in a QF win at the GABBA, then has 22 and kicks 2-goals in the PF against Geelong, then has 22 and kicks 4-goals in a Norm Smith winning performance. He wins the Gary Ayres Award.

In 2020 Martin averages 21 disposals, 1.1 x goals, 0.7 x goal assist. (25% reduced game time).

He's 6th for average coaches votes/game, 6th in Player Ratings, =5th in the Brownlow.

For mid-fwds, general forwards:

Player ratings: Martin 1st with 14.38. Breust on 11.02. Wingard on 10.85
Brownlow: Martin 1st with 15 votes. Greene on 12. Butler on 8.
Coaches vote avg: Martin 1st with 3.50. Greene on 2.62. L Ryan on 2.44.

Then after losing the QF, he goes BOG, BOG, BOG in 3 x consecutive finals, wins a NS and Gary Ayres Award.

So you can have your accumulating mids who might've got more Brownlow votes or meeeeddddyyyaaaa love - but Martin was easily the best player in 2017, 2019 and 2020. Stats back this up. Eye test backs this up. Performance back this up. Finals backs this up. Flags back this up.

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

 

[Mynamesinuse]

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

Again that’s not true.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Why are you only comparing Martin with mid-forwards in 2019/20?

We all know the best players in the game are midfielders.

Martin was a long way from the best players in the game after the 2020 home and away season, where Lachie Neale as the dominant player deservedly swept all the major awards. Conversely, Martin was left out of the AA team, and finished 6th in his own club's best and fairest.

Of course Martin made ground courtesy of his finals performances, but nowhere near enough to catch the best handful of players in the competition that year.

So do you rate Marin’s 2016 year better than 2017 based on the fact Martin played effectively as a full time mid and his stats reflect a boost in those categories relative to more midfield time and lower stats around scoring

 

[Fadge]

So do you rate Marin’s 2016 year better than 2017 based on the fact Martin played effectively as a full time mid and his stats reflect a boost in those categories relative to more midfield time and lower stats around scoring

Huh?

Clearly Martin's 2017 was his best season, where he was the best player in the league for the full season.

And I don't have to filter out any other positions or players when making that statement.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Huh?

Clearly Martin's 2017 was his best season, where he was the best player in the league for the full season.

And I don't have to filter out any other positions or players when making that statement.

How many players have a single indisputable season where they were the best player in the competition by every available measure?

Three players have done that since the coaches MVP was introduced around 20 years ago.

- Ablett won the Brownlow AND Coaches MVP in only one single season, 2009. Player ratings were not available prior to 2012, so we do not know whether he would have unified the 3 major titles in 2009.

- Dangerfield won the Brownlow, Coaches MVP and player ratings in 2016

- Martin won all 3 titles but also added the Gary Ayres Award and Norm Smith medal in 2017 when he played the most emphatic season in the sport's history.

Martin was seen by everybody bar you as the best player in the game between 2017 and 2020. Anybody in any doubt during any of that period had those doubts completely laid to rest by his exploits in the 2019 & 2020 finals series.

To read you on another thread claiming it is disputable that Dusty was BOG in 2 of his Grand Finals just tells us you will dispute anything about this player that you possibly can.

He was clearly the highest rated player in each Grand Final.

He received 43 of 45 available Norm Smith votes across the 3 Grand Finals.

He received 28 of a possible 30 coaches votes across the 3 Grand Finals.

If you standardised the 3 measures to a possible max of 10 votes each match, he got 30 of 30 votes from the ratings, 28 of 30 coaches votes and over 28 of 30 Norm Smith votes. In other words more than 86 votes of a possible 90 across the 3 matches, across the 3 sources.

Somewhere in that 4 missing votes out of 90 you are locating a level of dispute that does not exist either in reality nor in anybody else's mind.

Any claims Daicos has to being the best player in the game are completely disputable. He is doing well in the voting based awards(Brownlow, Coaches MVP,) but is not dominating them. But the player ratings don't recognise him as one of the best handful of players in the competition.

The notion that a player like Martin could be universally considered the best player in the game across a whole 4 year block and also play to a very high level in at least 4 other seasons(more like 5 or 6), and be regarded as the best finals player ever, and be seen as having played the best season ever, all achieved in an 18 team competition, and not be in the best 50 players in the history of the game is laughable.

I hope Collingwood don't rebuild by the way. Will be great watching them hover between 5th and 15th for the next 10 years.

 

[VicBased]

Looks like the thread has been hijacked by Richmond fans







AGAIN.

 

[Fadge]

Looks like the thread has been hijacked by Richmond fans







AGAIN.

Indeed.

They will do anything in their desperate efforts to maintain relevancy.

Sorry Tigers fans, you're in for another 3 decades of 1983 to 2016 levels of mediocrity.

See ya in 2055. Maybe.

 

[HeathySure]

Its always the same 10 Carlton and Richmond fans who are so biased they cannot see the truth!


1!

 

[Worm4]

Looks like the thread has been hijacked by Richmond fans







AGAIN.

Feel free to add to the discussion. Maybe some of your delulu west coast posters can join in and tell us how they are winning a flag before Collingwood due to under 22 player lists

 

[doppleganger]

Looks like the thread has been hijacked by Richmond fans







AGAIN.

The boring PlaYA Rating crew.

Unfair to compare Dusty to Sloane and Pendles, as they were midfielders

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

The words of Johnny Giles (legendary Irish Leeds United player and soccer analyst) springs to mind here when i think of Nick Daicos. A good player not a great player.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

They’ll still be thereabouts this year, 2027 will tell a lot about Collingwood, and could be the year the decline fast

The decline might happen this year yet god willing.

 

[Fadge]

The boring PlaYA Rating crew.

Unfair to compare Dusty to Sloane and Pendles, as they were midfielders
View attachment 2506729

LOLOLOLOL

Richmond supporters would be hoping Pendles plays another 100 games, so as his PLaYeR RaTiNGZ average slips below Martin's...

Quite amazing Pendles average PLaYeR RaTiNGZ average is 5% better despite having played 40% more games!

Another data point where Pendles career > Martin's career.

 

[Cyclops]

The decline might happen this year yet god willing.

Not when we get to play you twice.

Inshallah Carlton makes the finals and we get a third freebie.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Not when we get to play you twice.

Inshallah Carlton makes the finals and we get a third freebie.

The wheels will turn our way eventually again and the natural order of things shall be restored.