2009 - Ins and Outs

[mpal6]

Re: Drafting 2008/List 2009

Think last time Riewoldt and Charman's contract came up at the same time, we made an effort to trade. Once Nick re-signed, Charman was signed up on a 4 year deal.

With Wood gone, dont think Charman's up for trade anymore. Leigh would look at ways to make Charman more effective around ground than pin his hopes on a ruck draft prospect.

Vossy was right when he mentioned our recruiting of TJ shows Leigh is believing that we are close to another tilt. Think he's giving it a fair try before we lose Black/Power/Bradshaw. Trading Charman would throw a spanner in this plans.

Hope Berger bulks up and takes the lions share of ruck in 2009. We could park Charman in the forward line as the third tall and ruck when ball is in F50. Say a David Hale kinda role.

 

[POBT]

I think everyone believes that our problem is in the midfield. I've posted this before but we have drafted several midfielders in the last two years - Proud, Schmidt, Hawksley, Sheldon, Collier (I think he's a mid/flanker), Polkinghorne, Dalziell, Austin - and that is not including rookies. In the same period, I think I'm right in saying that we've drafted 1 ruck, 1 key forward and 1 key defender.

Following on from this post, last Sat night saw 4.75 pretty decent performances from midfielders - Riska, Dalziell, Brennan, Proud with 3 good quarters from Sherman.

Going into this year, our top 5 midfielders were expected to be Black, Power, Lappin, Adcock and Johnstone. We should have won a game against a decent side when none of our top 5 midfielders contributed. That is a pretty interesting place to be at.

Consistency is an issue. Class is also an issue. Pace is a problem although I am a firm believer that good teams become quick, not necessarily the other way around. But if you add only one fully functioning Adcock, Black or Power to that mix on Saturday night, we win the game.

I use the word "interesting" above on purpose. We are in a different place to Hawthorn or St Kilda were a few years ago in that our best 4 players are as good as most teams in the comp. If we decide that our next premiership window isn't for another few years then I think the club needs to make hard decisions. And you don't make those decisions by selling off an Adcock or Charman who are still relatively young in football terms - you sell the guys that probably won't be around for the next flag and who still have some value - namely Brown, Black, Power and Bradshaw.

But if people aren't willing to put those guys on the table, then you must think that we have another flag in us while those 4 are still around. IMO, we either aim for a flag in the next 3 years with those guys still in play and hope/pray that we develop well enough from within. Or, we write off the next 3 years, which means we get rid of our superstars and start all over again. I'd rather that we take a crack at another flag for Browny & co than really bottom out. But this "each way bet" stuff doesn't work.

 

[knaf]

I think there is considerable sense in the post 's of both luthor and POBT .

If we had won three out of the four winnable matches over the last five weeks, people would be taking premierships not wholesale changes. Has the potential premiership window with Brown, Black, Power and Bradshaw as significant players slammed shut? I think not. I dont think the team is that bad. Luck has run against us over the last month or so. Take it on the chin and stick to the plan. Luck evens out over a period of time. I still think it is possible to win a premiership 2010 or 2011 with improvement from within and some lowkey smart trading.

Look at the improvements this year. This is a summary of what many people thought at the start of the year:
Clark - thought to be an injury prone dud.
Brennan - flawed genuis.
Bradshaw - may never recover from his injury
Corrie - may never come back from injury
Dazell - who, do you mean Daziell?
Johnstone - hope we havent wasted a trade.
Patfull - not good enough (my opinion anyway)
Proud - is he the messiah or just a naughty boy?
Rischitelli - never win more clearances the Black.
Sherman - flash in the pan - no substance.

I think all those players have proved those pessimistic opinions wrong.

We have also got some games into Leuenberger, Roe, Hooper, Henderson, Collier, who I think have considerable potential. And really injuries have prevented us from seeing the real value of some of the talent we picked up in the 2006 draft.

Sure Charman, Adcock. Hooper, Merrett and Notting have performed below expectations this year, but I still think they have the ability to play a real role in a push for a Grand Final over the next 3 years. If our top 22 players are playing well we are a very good team.

I dont think our organisation, list and structure is so bad we have to make wholesale changes. There has been some comparison between our current situation and the Collywobbles. Collingwood brought the Collywobbles on themselves by living in the past, developing unrealistic expectations about the team, believing they had a right to be in the finals every year and over reacting to problems during tough times.

And finally lets be a little analytical about McGrath. My recollection is he was a very dangerous goal kicker for us early last year. Since then he has had a serious hamstring injury and problems with his knee that interrupted his pre-season. Yes we may trade him but we need to judge him on his value when injury free and fit.

 

[Old Den]

I'm well and truly on the... yes,we did the right thing by taking the best available in the last 3 National Drafts ...side of the discussion

2005 - we took Clark - we MIGHT have taken mids Nathan Jones,Varcoe,Ibbotson....we took Hooper in the 3rd round --- I'm not heartbroken with that outcome

2006 - we took Leuenberger - we MIGHT have taken Boak,Joel Selwood,Jetta.Alwyn Davey,Houli,Reimers ---- sure,Selwood would have been a win,but you can't have your cake and eat it too and by getting Proud in the 2nd round we did well (yes.. I'm on the band wagon but playing it softly for now)

2007 - we took Henderson - we MIGHT have taken Dangerfield,Rioli,Ebert or Grimes....we took Dalziell in the 4th round - nobody complaining now

We have done well and the recruiting staff deserve a big pat on the back

For 2009,we could not obtain by a reasonable trade any one of the above mentioned mids that we opted not to take in the Drafts and we won't use
our 1st round pick(which should net us a quality mid in a strong draft) for an older mid that might be available - clubs usually hang on to their gems

Lately,Rischitelli(among others) has been mentioned on this board as trade bait - he had a bottler of a game v North Melbourne and if he keeps improving on that performance it will illustrate what a draft pick in the vicinity of 61 can produce - Patfull at 56 is another example

There will be 5 or 6 (depending on Nige) not on the list in 09 - we can all speculate on who they will or should be but I think there will be more than one hard and tough decision made on this

 

[lionNick]

Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Charman to WCE for Kerr
Selwood, Mills & a draft pick for Didak
Cousins Via the Draft

What do u think guys????

 

[dlanod]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Kerr, Cousins and Didak? Hamilton will be in love - he'll always have something to write about.

 

[Duritz]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Charman to WCE for Kerr
Selwood, Mills & a draft pick for Didak
Cousins Via the Draft

What do u think guys????

WCE have Cox, why would they want Charman? And what are we going to do for a number 1 ruckman, just throw the Berger to the deep end?

Odds of those trades happening > biggest number ever / 1

 

[lionbear]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

No thanks

 

[Cousin Jed]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

I have a better chance of sleeping with Jennifer Hawkins than any of those trade scenarios coming to fruition.

 

[POBT]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Threads merged.

 

[Grimreepah]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Selwood, Mills & a draft pick for Didak

Multiple average players do not equal a very good player. Never has, never will.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Re: Ins - Didak, Kerr & Cousins????

Charman to WCE for Kerr
Selwood, Mills & a draft pick for Didak
Cousins Via the Draft

What do u think guys????

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Judge]

But if people aren't willing to put those guys on the table, then you must think that we have another flag in us while those 4 are still around. IMO, we either aim for a flag in the next 3 years with those guys still in play and hope/pray that we develop well enough from within. Or, we write off the next 3 years, which means we get rid of our superstars and start all over again. I'd rather that we take a crack at another flag for Browny & co than really bottom out. But this "each way bet" stuff doesn't work.

I agree with POBT regarding our dilemna. Speaking for myself, I don't think I could bring myself to trade Brown, Black or Bradshaw, and apart fron possibly Leuey I don't think anyone else would fetch a low first rounder in a trade. That being the case, we simply have no option but to develop what we have, draft according to our needs and hope for the best.

If someone had told me, a Bears supporter, in 1994 (when the turnaround started) that we would win a premiership in 2001 I would have been ecstatic, not just happy, at the prospect, even though we were going to have to wait another 7 years. My point is, we need to have realistic expectations about our next "premiership window", because it might be a long way off and we just have to take what enjoyment we can in the meantime. Would you be devastated if a crystal ball told you today that we would win our next flag in 2015? I wouldn't!

 

[maroon and blue]

I want a free running, big marking, long kicking centre half back for Xmas.

 

[BigCat2]

I want a free running, big marking, long kicking centre half back for Xmas.

Check the boxes already in your cupboard, and unwrap them. One says "Matt Tyler" and another says "Pat Garner".

 

[Old Den]

If someone had told me, a Bears supporter, in 1994 (when the turnaround started) that we would win a premiership in 2001 I would have been ecstatic, not just happy, at the prospect, even though we were going to have to wait another 7 years. My point is, we need to have realistic expectations about our next "premiership window", because it might be a long way off and we just have to take what enjoyment we can in the meantime. Would you be devastated if a crystal ball told you today that we would win our next flag in 2015? I wouldn't!

In a 16 team competition with a draft and a salary cap if we won 6 flags in the next 100 years we would be just about on average - and they are about to add 2 more teams

Premierships are very hard to win - building a good competitive side is nowhere near as hard - so the threepeat was something to savour at the time and a great memory - always

 

[RoJo Junior]

I read in an article that Rischitelli is out of contract this year. Is that correct or if so has he signed a new one already? Seeing that my club may end up lookin at him in the PSD come seasons end. I thought he was one of your better players today and has been pretty serviceable and played every game this season.

 

[T Rick]

Out: Brisbane Lions
In: Someone else

 

[Judge]

After today's performance, my view on trades/delistings is as follows:

Definitely gone
Copeland (good servant, but the game has passed him by)
Lappin (can't see him putting his hand up again)
McGrath (5 years of inconsistency/disappointment is enough)
Notting (won't improve at his age, a waste of such great physical attributes)
Selwood (tries hard, good clubman but not skilled enough)
Stiller (just not sufficiently athletic or skilled, unlikely to improve)
Hooper (tough call, but something's missing)
Mills ( if it is true he is struggling for Suncoast)

Possibly gone
Corrie (I would keep one of Anthony or Hooper)
Harding (depending on our draft picks, no real trade value)
Moody (I'd like to see him play again before deciding)
Roe (thought he was OK today, pace and decision-making a worry)
Schmidt(haven't seen him this year, had high hopes but lack of progress?)
Sheldon (rookie list if injuries not the only concern?)

The above list does not augur well for trading, and I suspect trade week will be a fizzer for us unless Browny decides to leave.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cousin Jed]

We'll need to draft 11 players with all those cuts

 

[Grimreepah]

Hooper (tough call, but something's missing)

I know it's fashionable to bag Hooper at the moment, but I think there is very little chance of him going even if he wasn't contracted. I would also move a few of your other 'definites' into 'possibles'.

 

[Judge]

We'll need to draft 11 players with all those cuts

Yes I am aware that limits on draft picks etc will mean that not even all of my "definites" will go, but I was simply expressing my views in relation to the players concerned without trying to predict what will actually happen.
Some players will survive, for logistical or other reasons, and I look forward to seeing them prove me wrong.

 

[Raav]

After today's performance, my view on trades/delistings is as follows:

Definitely gone
Copeland (good servant, but the game has passed him by)
Lappin (can't see him putting his hand up again)
McGrath (5 years of inconsistency/disappointment is enough)
Notting (won't improve at his age, a waste of such great physical attributes)
Selwood (tries hard, good clubman but not skilled enough)
Stiller (just not sufficiently athletic or skilled, unlikely to improve)
Hooper (tough call, but something's missing)
Mills ( if it is true he is struggling for Suncoast)

Possibly gone
Corrie (I would keep one of Anthony or Hooper)
Harding (depending on our draft picks, no real trade value)
Moody (I'd like to see him play again before deciding)
Roe (thought he was OK today, pace and decision-making a worry)
Schmidt(haven't seen him this year, had high hopes but lack of progress?)
Sheldon (rookie list if injuries not the only concern?)
Any thoughts?

Notting, Selwood, Mills, Stiller and Copeland would be most likely to get the chop.
Lappin deserves another chance if he wants to/is able to go again.
Schmidt and Sheldon are very young are they not?? I'd be loathe to give kids the chop especially untried kids and have another club pick them up and watch them become good players.
Roe and Hooper will not go anywhere.
McGrath if he isn't 100% committed to staying long term, trade him to Freo for their 2nd rounder throw in Moody to sweeten the deal.
I'm not sure on Corrie and Harding.

 

[acuguy]

Hooper is only in his 3rd year of AFL football as a small forward, his confidence is down but his workrate and his willingness to present were obvious yesterday. His old state captain in Proud is now in our side and you watch these 2 work together through the years. What Hooper needs from Hooper is a committed pre season. Remember this time last year he was nearly the most exciting young talent in the AFL. That talent and skill is still there

 

[FFB1]

Hooper is only in his 3rd year of AFL football as a small forward, his confidence is down but his workrate and his willingness to present were obvious yesterday. His old state captain in Proud is now in our side and you watch these 2 work together through the years. What Hooper needs from Hooper is a committed pre season. Remember this time last year he was nearly the most exciting young talent in the AFL. That talent and skill is still there

That may be true acuguy but sometimes, when it comes to the crunch, we cant afford to give players 'a little more time' because they show that they have 'talent and skil'l. If you put me at a table tennis table I might dazzle you with a few moves WIll Ferell would consider making a movie about, but the producers arent going to wait a few years to see if I can actually perform. 3 years is a decent probation period..

Almost every young player is up there with the 'most exciting young talent' as soon as they do one or two things electric. The average supporter tends to look through their rose coloured glasses though - I bet you less than 10% of AFL fans would be able to look back to 2007 and pinpoint what made Hooper attract the 'most exciting talent' tag. Sure, he did do a couple of exciting things last season, the fact he'd walked away and come back magnified them somewhat.

We are in desperate need of an at-ground crumbing player - not one that can just get the ball - one that actually kicks friggin goals.

Sorry acuguy, not a go at you personally, I'm just one of us many Lions fans who are scratching their heads at what our side is delivering at the moment and what makes it harder to swallow is us common folk can indentify exactly what is going wrong but we appear to see nothing being addressed..