List Mgmt. 2011 Rookie Draft - LIVE in-draft discussion

[Pure_Ownage]

I think Walker and Bathie are the guys we need to start appreciating. Seems everyone is requesting we select a tall back man, and a project ruck man???Well, isn't this exactly what we have already with these 2? And Simpson is hardly out of nappies yet as far as project rucks go.

We may well have everything we need in our own backyard already.

Agree with that.

Just hope Bathie doesn't have to play too much ruck in the VFL next year (to support Dawson if Vardy is out injured). While I'm surprised we took another couple of smalls, the list is still fairly well balanced, and Wells made it pretty clear they were looking for best available today, which we think we got.

 

[meto]

Just totally unimaginative, those selections, 2x180cm, have fun boys trying to leapfrog about a dozen others vying for the same spots in the team!

Why won't Wells at least select some 190cm sized backup and add some competition for those positions??
Darrou went at p25, Dobosz kicked 7 against Vic Country, must have some talent?
Then there's Richards, and others from Metro and Country that were favoured to go in the National that Wells overlooked.
Thought we needed to look at a little height, at least something??
Very poor choices IMO after a great National I'd rate it a 3/10.

 

[David the Cat]

Just totally unimaginative, those selections, 2x180cm, have fun boys trying to leapfrog about a dozen others vying for the same spots in the team!

Why won't Wells at least select some 190cm sized backup and add some competition for those positions??
Darrou went at p25, Dobosz kicked 7 against Vic Country, must have some talent?
Then there's Richards, and others from Metro and Country that were favoured to go in the National that Wells overlooked.
Thought we needed to look at a little height, at least something??
Very poor choices IMO after a great National I'd rate it a 3/10.

Overlooked by 17 other talent spotters too meto, not just Wells. Maybe they just aren't good enough for AFL level??.

Character comes into it too and maybe they didnt pass muster on that level either...

We don't know enough to make final judgements....they do.

I never expect much from a rookie draft and history shows thats a reasonable approach to take. I might leave the rating until we see these boys play.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Just totally unimaginative, those selections, 2x180cm, have fun boys trying to leapfrog about a dozen others vying for the same spots in the team!

Blicavs was unimaginative?

 

[goyoucatters]

Just totally unimaginative, those selections, 2x180cm, have fun boys trying to leapfrog about a dozen others vying for the same spots in the team!

Why won't Wells at least select some 190cm sized backup and add some competition for those positions??
Darrou went at p25, Dobosz kicked 7 against Vic Country, must have some talent?
Then there's Richards, and others from Metro and Country that were favoured to go in the National that Wells overlooked.
Thought we needed to look at a little height, at least something??
Very poor choices IMO after a great National I'd rate it a 3/10.

3/10? Generous, compared to my rating on efforts to 'rate' Wells' drafting this far out from any possible objective analysis.

 

[vinum coupe]

I suggested we'd go smaller for 2 reasons.

1/ I thought the VFL team may need more runners
2/ I don't think picking talls as rookies works all that well. Not sure why that is. And I thought we may just change tac.

Also I agree with an earlier poster. It's like Wells is trying to recreate that nucleus that he developed in 2001 etc. And you need a lot of midfield options in development to get that right.

And maybe, just maybe, Wells rates the talls in the 2012 draft and he's just holding off. It's possible we will have pick 18 and 19 next year.

 

[Selective Retention]

Taylor
Lonergan
Scarlett
Gillies
Hamling/Walker/Bathie/Blicavs

West
Simpson
Vardy
Stephenson
Bathie/Blicavs

Pods
Hawkins
Brown
Kersten
Hamling/Walker/Blicavs

The ones that I've bracketed are the ones that don't seem to have a set position as yet.

I don't see the fuss about drafting talls. I'd much prefer some ball winners to replace Ling, Corey, Chapman etc. As Sydney have shown you can find some half developed tall from another club every trade period to stop gap, without a quality midfield you are stuffed. Not every kid we have will develop into a quality senior player, and not many of the ones we do have have the size or ball winning ability to play inside. I like the look of Eardley, something to work with.

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

They have had the chance to have a very good look at Boseley and had multiple chances to take him.......and didn't.

Geelong don't rate him and that could be for reasons outside football ability as well as for shortcomings in skill level. They ( Wells in particular ) know a lot more than we do, so I suspect its a good decision.

You're a brave man/woman to criticise Wells' choices in advance ... I sure won't be.

Don't know anything about pick 18...Eardley?

It's too early to tell whether it's the right call or not. Wells is a gun, but he is only human. He has an average record with rookies, as well as selecting guys like Tenace, Spriggs, Bray, Gardiner with high picks. He can't be perfect all the time. All I'm saying is we can't say that we have picked the right players because Wellsy picked them. But here's hoping we have

 

[CharacterFirst]

I think Walker and Bathie are the guys we need to start appreciating. Seems everyone is requesting we select a tall back man, and a project ruck man???Well, isn't this exactly what we have already with these 2? And Simpson is hardly out of nappies yet as far as project rucks go.

We may well have everything we need in our own backyard already.

I'm with you as well VD.

 

[sarah.13]

For the Wells knockers, it is generally accepted that we have the most talented and the most depth of any other club in the competition..
Wonder how that happened!!!!

 

[Turbocat]

Meto's comment is basically fair , the difficulty for a Wells success in Rookie picks is the short time the have to strut their stuff and if we pick players in a "type' that we have plenty in they will probably struggle. But what we dont know is would the same apply to talls or other type picks. For instance if we play Walker and Brown and Keirten forward would Dobosz have a spot? The same if we feel Hamling & Bathie down back. Perhaps we could have gone tall but we did have the runner at P3

Personally , I wouldn't dare knock Wells for picks , Rookie or not. Sure he has gone small but there may be a variety of reasons he has done so.
Maybe he thought the pool was so weak that these boys had the best chance of success. Perhaps its list balance. Maybe its knowledge on next years draft. Perhaps the kid from WA is raw and looks to have a big potential upside once in the professional system. Not sure. Rookies are 10:1 shot anyway so its hardly make or break.

 

[AM]

For the Wells knockers, it is generally accepted that we have the most talented and the most depth of any other club in the competition..
Wonder how that happened!!!!

No one with a full set of operating neurons doubts Stephen's overall capacity as a judge of talent. As you say, and I suggested, his efforts in the ND have been exceptional and the list he's put together has been very impressive. Just making the obvious point in response to a post that his record in the rookie area hasn't been nearly as impressive.

However, as CF quite properly pointed out he's by no means on his Pat Malone in that respect.

 

[you pick one]

Meto's comment is basically fair , the difficulty for a Wells success in Rookie picks is the short time the have to strut their stuff and if we pick players in a "type' that we have plenty in they will probably struggle. But what we dont know is would the same apply to talls or other type picks. For instance if we play Walker and Brown and Keirten forward would Dobosz have a spot? The same if we feel Hamling & Bathie down back. Perhaps we could have gone tall but we did have the runner at P3

Personally , I wouldn't dare knock Wells for picks , Rookie or not. Sure he has gone small but there may be a variety of reasons he has done so.
Maybe he thought the pool was so weak that these boys had the best chance of success. Perhaps its list balance. Maybe its knowledge on next years draft. Perhaps the kid from WA is raw and looks to have a big potential upside once in the professional system. Not sure. Rookies are 10:1 shot anyway so its hardly make or break.

Bingo

 

[sarah.13]

No one with a full set of operating neurons doubts Stephen's overall capacity as a judge of talent. As you say, and I suggested, his efforts in the ND have been exceptional and the list he's put together has been very impressive. Just making the obvious point in response to a post that his record in the rookie area hasn't been nearly as impressive.

However, as CF quite properly pointed out he's by no means on his Pat Malone in that respect.

Fair enough Ammo Man, but consider that if some of our rookie listed player who are regulars at other clubs, Mummy, Moloney , Carrazzo, Laidler etc were still at geelong perhaps this debate would be mute given the expected strike rate for Rookies is much lower than the National Draft.
But i do see your point,

 

[vinum coupe]

For the Wells knockers, it is generally accepted that we have the most talented and the most depth of any other club in the competition..
Wonder how that happened!!!!

No one will argue with you.

I love it when i see quotes such as "how does the premiership team of 09 go on to get Menzel? AND Duncan? AND Vardy? AND Christensen?

 

[meto]

Overlooked by 17 other talent spotters too meto, not just Wells. Maybe they just aren't good enough for AFL level??.

Character comes into it too and maybe they didnt pass muster on that level either...

We don't know enough to make final judgements....they do.

I never expect much from a rookie draft and history shows thats a reasonable approach to take. I might leave the rating until we see these boys play.

Dave, I just carn't make sense of selecting guys that have no hope of playing seniors, given who they'd have to step over, not to mention the Cowans etc that are already trying.
Our smalls are to young to be further selecting more, that's my arguement, just seems a waste to me.
I wanted Darrou a 190+ half back, if he wanted a small after that, I would've thought "OK", go for it, but Enwright, Corey and Mackie aren't getting younger, I just couldn't understand two smalls???

Just thought he should've given a decent sized Halfback a try, considering how Gillies' stocks rose in the wake of the Hawthorn offer before trade week.

 

[AM]

Fair enough Ammo Man, but consider that if some of our rookie listed player who are regulars at other clubs, Mummy, Moloney , Carrazzo, Laidler etc were still at geelong perhaps this debate would be mute given the expected strike rate for Rookies is much lower than the National Draft.
But i do see your point,

Yep! Never said Stephen didn't have some successes just that his performance in the rookie area hasn't been as impressive as one poster suggested. In addition to your four, a few I've come up with:

Allwright
Batchelor
Bedford
Davenport
Ediriwickrama
Hunt -Sam
Johnson -Ben
Kangars
Moles
Reynolds
Sheringham - Tim
Weadon
Weston
Varcoe - Adam

That said, as CF showed, it appears it's much harder to hit the target with rookies than it does with those from the NB.

Anyhoo, we all agree that Stephen has set-up our recruiting department well as his results show.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

It's too early to tell whether it's the right call or not. Wells is a gun, but he is only human. He has an average record with rookies, as well as selecting guys like Tenace, Spriggs, Bray, Gardiner with high picks. He can't be perfect all the time. All I'm saying is we can't say that we have picked the right players because Wellsy picked them. But here's hoping we have

The fact that you had to go back eight, twelve, twelve and ten years for your examples says it all. Here's the thing that encourages me about our team right now, compared to Brisbane in 2003:

Chris Johnson, Mal Michael, Darryl White
Luke Power, Justin Leppitsch, Nigel Lappin
Jason Akermanis, Michael Voss, Martin Pike
Ashley McGrath, Jonathan Brown, Robert Copeland
Craig McRae, Alastair Lynch, Daniel Bradshaw
Clark Keating, Simon Black, Shaun Hart
Jamie Charman, Blake Caracella, Marcus Ashcroft, Richard Hadley

Where was the quality youth coming through? Every single one of those players had been in the AFL prior to them winning their first premiership and (to the best of my knowledge) all but Caracella had been with Brisbane prior to their first premiership. The 2004 Brisbane grand final team was a similar story (in: B. Scott, C. Scott, McLaren, Notting; out: Hart, McGrath, Ashcroft, Charman) Yet we continue to transition and evolve. We have a chance to be better than Brisbane were, make no mistake about it.

 

[winty]

I suggested we'd go smaller for 2 reasons.

1/ I thought the VFL team may need more runners
2/ I don't think picking talls as rookies works all that well. Not sure why that is. And I thought we may just change tac.

Also I agree with an earlier poster. It's like Wells is trying to recreate that nucleus that he developed in 2001 etc. And you need a lot of midfield options in development to get that right.

And maybe, just maybe, Wells rates the talls in the 2012 draft and he's just holding off. It's possible we will have pick 18 and 19 next year.

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded IMO. How many times did our VFL side line up with four or more ruckmen in the side? Our forward line in particular was usually ridiculously top heavy, with the likes of Brown, West/Vardy, Simpson/Blake and Mooney all down there. Oddly enough, the game in which our forward line looked the most dangerous was against Casey when we only had one tall forward. Troy Selwood kicked 7 in that game playing as an undersized CHF.

Now we have a few more midfielder-sized players in the side, we'll be able to structure up better.

 

[meto]

You hit the nail on the head with the bolded IMO. How many times did our VFL side line up with four or more ruckmen in the side? Our forward line in particular was usually ridiculously top heavy, with the likes of Brown, West/Vardy, Simpson/Blake and Mooney all down there. Oddly enough, the game in which our forward line looked the most dangerous was against Casey when we only had one tall forward. Troy Selwood kicked 7 in that game playing as an undersized CHF.

Now we have a few more midfielder-sized players in the side, we'll be able to structure up better.

Are we now drafting for our seconds?..... half those talls you mentioned are rucks not backmen, some don't even play at the club anymore, and others are unavailable start 2012.
Thought we needed Scarlett size backmen?

 

[winty]

Are we now drafting for our seconds?..... half those talls you mentioned are rucks not backmen, some don't even play at the club anymore, and others are unavailable start 2012.
Thought we needed Scarlett size backmen?

Walker, Bathie and Gillies?

 

[meto]

Walker, Bathie and Gillies?

Ok, Gillies, hasn't impressed in 4yrs, is now essential coz of desparation, and the other two are only rookies themselves, only 1 will be elevated, both carn't play as things stand.
Both are keypost talls, where are our 190cm backflankers?.....we haven't got one, not even one!!!

That's why Wells needed to draft at least 1 HBF of size, IMO!
Not 2x180.

And the arguement by some, it doesn't matter with the rookies theyre never successful, how can they if they're the same height as 15 others.
Aren't we dependent now on one of these two rookie boys (Bathie, Walker)??..... to do the job due to a straight lack of tallish defenders?
Amazed we didn't pick a tall halfback, anyhow???

 

[longtimecat]

Its pretty near impossible for any guy who has been overlooked by every club in the draft to then be rookie listed by Geelong and break into a team that has 3 premierships in 5 years. Get real guys, who would you drop from the best 22 to play a rookie.

 

[TheHonestyPolicy]

Its pretty near impossible for any guy who has been overlooked by every club in the draft to then be rookie listed by Geelong and break into a team that has 3 premierships in 5 years. Get real guys, who would you drop from the best 22 to play a rookie.

Indeed.

Lack of opportunity is also a great way to kill off someone's burning desire to play at the highest level. Not like these guys are on a fortune. Other rookies at other clubs probably see the light at the end of the tunnel. At Geelong there wouldnt be much to get excited about as a rookie when you see the selected side each week and who is still missing in the twos.

Then again, when the top 90 players or more are already taken not quite sure why you would ever compare success in the ND to the RD.

Still Pods, Mumford, Laidler? Varcoe and Ranga could obviously play but were culled through injury. Weston and Johnson also struggled with injury but had some talent. We have some handy types on the list currently.

Not quite sure what some people are looking for or what the expectations should be when the rookie list is a supplemetary one anyway to the main list, so by definition if you are a very successful side it wont be needed!

 

[GHS33]

Ok, Gillies, hasn't impressed in 4yrs, is now essential coz of desparation, and the other two are only rookies themselves, only 1 will be elevated, both carn't play as things stand.
Both are keypost talls, where are our 190cm backflankers?.....we haven't got one, not even one!!!

That's why Wells needed to draft at least 1 HBF of size, IMO!
Not 2x180.

And the arguement by some, it doesn't matter with the rookies theyre never successful, how can they if they're the same height as 15 others.
Aren't we dependent now on one of these two rookie boys (Bathie, Walker)??..... to do the job due to a straight lack of tallish defenders?
Amazed we didn't pick a tall halfback, anyhow???

Personally, I don't understand where that thought is coming from. I counted 16 players (see below) that are around the 190cm mark that will/can play off the HBF. Granted, some are iffy, but these players have been drafted with versatility as a key aspect.

Hamling, Joel 194cm 80kg
Bartel, Jimmy 187cm 88kg
Burbury, George 186cm 78kg
Corey, Joel 191cm 89kg
Duncan, Mitchell 187cm 82kg
Enright, Corey 187cm 91kg
Gillies, Thomas 192cm 88kg
Guthrie, Cameron 186cm 79kg
Horlin-Smith, George 186cm 78kg
Mackie, Andrew 192cm 87kg
Menzel, Daniel 188cm 79kg
Murdoch, Jordan 190cm 80kg
Scarlett, Matthew 192cm 94kg
Smedts, Billie 189cm 76kg
Taylor, Harry 193cm 92kg
Weston, Jack 189cm 88kg