2012: Geelong or Hawthorn

[Kong]

Who will be better?

I've seen claims that both will either win the premiership or drop out of the eight. I don't agree that either will miss the eight, but what's the consensus on who will finish higher?

 

[Old Skool]

If it isn't Hawthorn now, then it never will be.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

What do you think op?

 

[TheOldXav]

Nothing suggests Hawthorn have bridged the gap b/w the top 2 sides. A more realistic comparison for 2012 would be Carlton V Hawthorn V WC.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Could all hinge on how the big Roughie comes back.

 

[Jeremias]

Another good poll, with not much between them.

If Hawthorn can stay fit, I'm tipping them to make the Grand Final. There is a fair bit of quality on that list. Their depth was really tested last season and will have improved significantly as a result.

Geelong are an absolute marvel. People are guilty every year of underestimating them and stating that they will drop off. Hell, after the departure of GAJ, I was guilty of that too. But they just keep on proving people wrong, going about their business and developing some really promising kids at the same time. Could this be the year they start to drop? Could well be - but I wouldn't count on it.

I'll go Geelong.

Would not surprise me at all if it was these two teams that played off against each other for the ultimate glory of premiership success.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Nothing suggests Hawthorn have bridged the gap b/w the top 2 sides. A more realistic comparison for 2012 would be Carlton V Hawthorn V WC.

You a bit upset because nobody rates Collingwood anymore?

You keep saying this, but a lot changes over the pre-season in football. At the end of 2006 when Geelong missed the 8, did you think they were going to be one of the great sides of all time in the next few years?

 

[Hump 17]

Nothing suggests Hawthorn have bridged the gap b/w the top 2 sides. A more realistic comparison for 2012 would be Carlton V Hawthorn V WC.

Are you talking about that 3 point gap between Collingwood and Hawthorn? Collingwood have lost there AA half back in Davis and second ruck in Brown. Looks as though the gaps in Hawthorns favour.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Are you talking about that 3 point gap between Collingwood and Hawthorn? Collingwood have lost there AA half back in Davis and second ruck in Brown. Looks as though the gaps in Hawthorns favour.

And they lost their coach. And their gameplan has been dismantled. And Darren Jolly is a shadow of the player he once was. You would think we would be a 3 to 4 goal better side than Collingwood in 2012, but not according to The Panther.

 

[doppleganger]

I love it that when Collingwood picked up L.Brown almost all and sundry were questioning the decision and thought it a waste and would stunt a kid.

Now that the journeyman has retired, many opposition supporters paint him as some kind of gun.

In answer to the question, Hawthorn.

Geelong will finally drop off, have a year with a few injuries and some of the kids will struggle when given more responsibility...may sneak into the 8.

Hawthorn will again finish 3rd or 4th.

 

[Hump 17]

I love it that when Collingwood picked up L.Brown almost all and sundry were questioning the decision and thought it a waste and would stunt a kid.

Now that the journeyman has retired, many opposition supporters paint him as some kind of gun.

In answer to the question, Hawthorn.

Geelong will finally drop off, have a year with a few injuries and some of the kids will struggle when given more responsibility...may sneak into the 8.

Hawthorn will again finish 3rd or 4th.

Yes but Brown filled a role at Collingwood that no one else on your list could. Im on Hawthorn just feel nothing went right for them in the Prelim last year and they still should have won the game.

 

[Kong]

Sorry, when I wrote "Geelong or Hawthorn", I actually meant "Geelong or Hawthorn".

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Depends on the youngsters improvement/fitness. There's a bit of assumed improvement in the addition of Roughead Gilham Stratton, but there's no guarantee on the fitness/form of the first two. Any improvement might be due more to the addition of some mature age recruits in Gunston (21), Bouman (22), the return of Hodge to full fitness, a full season out of Rioli, and so on.

Geelong will rely on their young players more and more, and there just isn't much there to replace the likes of Ling/Ottens/Milburn/Mooney/etc. Granted not all premiership players in 2011, but they were important as depth nonetheless. Mitch Brown has looked poor, Duncan seems to have reached a peak of sorts, Christensen is average, etc. They will rely on the players of the 2010 draft to step up.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Christensen beat Rioli's stats for the same part of their careers so don't know how you can say he is going to be a godsend and Christensen is average. Duncan peaked??? Sounds more like a troll bait comment as it has no substance.

 

[Jeremias]

Mitch Brown has looked poor, Duncan seems to have reached a peak of sorts, Christensen is average, etc. They will rely on the players of the 2010 draft to step up.

Did you deduce that Brown looked poor from his debut game where he kicked 3 goals, or his 2nd game where he injured his troublesome shoulder?

And what makes you say that Duncan has reached a peak of sorts? I mean, besides the fact he doesn't play for Hawthorn. He's 20 years old FFS, and he's a promising youngster who looks to have plenty of improvement left in him.

And a 20 year old that made his debut in 2011 and kept his place for the majority of the season in a premiership year must be average.

What a load of shit.

If any of them played for Hawthorn you'd likely be proclaiming them to be the best young talent in the country.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Christensen beat Rioli's stats for the same part of their careers so don't know how you can say he is going to be a godsend and Christensen is average.

And Scott Thompson beat Chris Judd's stats this year too. Means nothing, particularly when talking raw stats. Never mentioned Rioli as a godsend either, that's your exaggeration, not mine.

Certainly Christensen didn't outperform Rioli in stats either way you look at it. On similar age Rioli is well ahead with 1.9 goals a game contributed and 15.6 disposals to Christensen's 1.5 goals a game contributed with 16 disposals. So Rioli still ahead even in that shallow comparison.

Duncan peaked??? Sounds more like a troll bait comment as it has no substance.

Said the same thing about Selwood early on and have been proven correct as he plateaued when predicted.

I'm looking forward to Billie Smedts, he looks like genuine quality.

 

[WWSD]

Nothing suggests Hawthorn have bridged the gap b/w the top 2 sides. A more realistic comparison for 2012 would be Carlton V Hawthorn V WC.

You obviously don't know anything about Footy! 3 points dosen't suggest to me like Hawthorn are far behind Collingwood at all!

Collingwood have lost, Brown Davis. MM and some depth players in Dick and McCarthy. Plus Jolly and Johnson are not as good anymore.

Hawthorn have lost..... hmm
We get back Roughead Gilham Young Ellis Savage Breust and the inclusion of Gunston. What makes you think that Collingwood are stronger now then before!? Hawthorn's list is better at the moment we have 32-35 players to choose from. Only Brown and MacCaffer missed that PF from your best 22.

So at the end of the day... Hawthorn have been strengthed and Collingwood have been weakend!

 

[Hodgepodge]

Did you deduce that Brown looked poor from his debut game where he kicked 3 goals, or his 2nd game where he injured his troublesome shoulder?

Both. The game against Adelaide was a rout and the goals were shall we say opportunistic or joe the goose types.

And what makes you say that Duncan has reached a peak of sorts? I mean, besides the fact he doesn't play for Hawthorn. He's 20 years old FFS, and he's a promising youngster who looks to have plenty of improvement left in him.

Seems just about maxed out in terms of size and fitness. Also has no standout physical characteristic to grow into, such as frame, speed, etc.

And a 20 year old that made his debut in 2011 and kept his place for the majority of the season in a premiership year must be average.

Not on those factors, but he does happen to be average.

If any of them played for Hawthorn you'd likely be proclaiming them to be the best young talent in the country.

Not at all, in fact I gave an honest assessment of the likelihood of our improvement in the same post, which you overlooked. The same theme runs through both list appraisals, i.e. that of 'assumed improvement', which I argued against for both sides, probably more for my own than Geelong's. So your quote here couldn't be more wrong.

 

[DTRAIN87]

And Scott Thompson beat Chris Judd's stats this year too. Means nothing, particularly when talking raw stats. Never mentioned Rioli as a godsend either, that's your exaggeration, not mine.

Certainly Christensen didn't outperform Rioli in stats either way you look at it. On similar age Rioli is well ahead with 1.9 goals a game contributed and 15.6 disposals to Christensen's 1.5 goals a game contributed with 16 disposals. So Rioli still ahead even in that shallow comparison.



Said the same thing about Selwood early on and have been proven correct as he plateaued when predicted.

I'm looking forward to Billie Smedts, he looks like genuine quality.

This is coming from a man who uses a criteria of 20 and 3 or you're not elite. Christensen's stats as posted here against Rioli's have been shown to be very similar with the exception that Christensen did this by playing off the bench as the sub. As for Selwood, if he has peaked (which most people disagree on) and plateaued then he will still be putting out elite output week after week.

 

[Jeremias]

Both. The game against Adelaide was a rout and the goals were shall we say opportunistic or joe the goose types

You are right. He didn't kick 10 goals so he's not up to it. How could I miss something so very basic?

Seems just about maxed out in terms of size and fitness. Also has no standout physical characteristic to grow into, such as frame, speed, etc.

Crap, crap and more crap. He's not flashy so he must be ordinary with no improvement left in him. Nice logic.

Do you ever get tired of dribbling shit?

Duncan is a very promising youngster. Has a bright future.

Not on those factors, but he does happen to be average.

Ah yes, so just as I suspected. He's average because he doesn't play for Hawthorn.

I'd ask you to elaborate, but you are so full of shit I can't be bothered.

Christensen had an excellent debut season and is a very promising young player. How you could argue to the contrary is, quite simply, baffling.

Not at all, in fact I gave an honest assessment of the likelihood of our improvement in the same post, which you overlooked. The same theme runs through both list appraisals, i.e. that of 'assumed improvement', which I argued against for both sides, probably more for my own than Geelong's. So your quote here couldn't be more wrong.

You talk up Hawthorn's young players like there's no tomorrow.

That you've managed to dislodge your cranium from your rectum for one second and provided a semi-reasonable post evaluating your own side doesn't change the fact that you are incredibly biased.

You should probably stick to Bay 13. It really suits you much better.

 

[Hodgepodge]

This is coming from a man who uses a criteria of 20 and 3 or you're not elite.

Never said that. Quote it then.

Christensen's stats as posted here against Rioli's have been shown to be very similar with the exception that Christensen did this by playing off the bench as the sub.

How would playing more gametime help? We assume it does, but often it doesn't. Even more fallacious is the claim that output increases in direct proportion to the % of added time. If that's the case Breust was on 20 and 3 pace this year

As for Selwood, if he has peaked (which most people disagree on) and plateaued then he will still be putting out elite output week after week.

No doubt, but people did project for more and they've been proven wrong.

 

[Hodgepodge]

You are right. He didn't kick 10 goals so he's not up to it. How could I miss something so very basic?

There you go again drawing up performances entirely from output. If you watched that game you'll know it was a rout and that Brown didn't do much.

Crap, crap and more crap. He's not flashy so he must be ordinary with no improvement left in him. Nice logic.

Why do you feel the need to keep misrepresenting?

Duncan is a very promising youngster. Has a bright future.

Where did I say otherwise?

Ah yes, so just as I suspected. He's average because he doesn't play for Hawthorn.

There you go again, misrepresenting.

You talk up Hawthorn's young players like there's no tomorrow.

What, on the Bay? I would've thought comparing players to gods indicated that I was being capricious.

That you've managed to dislodge your cranium from your rectum for one second and provided a semi-reasonable post evaluating your own side doesn't change the fact that you are incredibly biased.

Well, biased would mean favouring one side over the other in my arguments, which I simply haven't done. Although I did vote for Hawthorn I guess.

 

[winty]

Depends on the youngsters improvement/fitness. There's a bit of assumed improvement in the addition of Roughead Gilham Stratton, but there's no guarantee on the fitness/form of the first two. Any improvement might be due more to the addition of some mature age recruits in Gunston (21), Bouman (22), the return of Hodge to full fitness, a full season out of Rioli, and so on.

Geelong will rely on their young players more and more, and there just isn't much there to replace the likes of Ling/Ottens/Milburn/Mooney/etc. Granted not all premiership players in 2011, but they were important as depth nonetheless. Mitch Brown has looked poor, Duncan seems to have reached a peak of sorts, Christensen is average, etc. They will rely on the players of the 2010 draft to step up.

The more I read of your drivel, the more I think you're just trying to be antagonistic and that you really have no idea.

Mitch Brown has looked poor has he? Bit hard to set the world on fire when you've only played 2 senior games in 3 years due to suffering severe injuries. He was looking impressive in practice matches in 2009 before he broke his tibia and fibula and dislocated his ankle in a sickening clash against the Collingwood VFL side. He spent 12 months on the sidelines, got back on the track, kicked 8 goals in a VFL game against Williamstown playing on several AFL-listed defenders, and in his 4th or 5th game back dislocated his shoulder, which was the same injury he copped in the Essendon game this year.

It's getting rather tedious how you're always willing to give excuses for Hawthorn players like Rioli and Hodge, but never, ever, extend the same courtesy to anyone who doesn't wear the brown and gold.

 

[Jeremias]

Oh yes, of course. In 1 out of 100 posts you've considered both sides of the argument so you aren't biased in any sense of the word. How could I be so daft?

We get it. You rate Hawthorn and struggle to give any sort of credit to other teams. You've been posting for 3 years - more than enough time for us to realize that.

Of course it's Mitch Brown's fault he debuted in a rout. He needed to kick 10 goals for his performance to warrant any sort of praise - because kicking 3 on debut is just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill accomplishment. You're right - he's poor.

I'm not misrepresenting you at all, and you know it. I'm calling you a biased fool and a troll because that's exactly what you are. I've seen more than enough of your posts to recognize that you downplay the performances and accomplishments of a player if they don't play for Hawthorn. That's not a misrepresentation - it's just about as accurate a representation as you'll ever see.

I don't read the Bay, haven't done so in years. So yes I'm sure you do talk up Hawthorn players to ridiculous degrees on there. You also do on the main board, on the polls board, on the Hawks board. That you'd try dispute that is an bordering on insulting because that's basically all you're about.

Brown, Duncan and Christensen have all shown some fantastic signs in their time playing senior football. Brown wasn't poor, Duncan have plenty of development left in him and to suggest otherwise is incredibly naive, and Christensen has shown plenty to suggest that he's better than average.

As I said, put any or all of the 3 in Hawthorn colours and you wouldn't be able to shut up about them, not just on the bay. And no, before you have a cry, that's not a misrepresentation. That's based on everything we've seen you post over the years.

Get over yourself.

 

[winty]

Oh yes, of course. In 1 out of 100 posts you've considered both sides of the argument so you aren't biased in any sense of the word. How could I be so daft?

We get it. You rate Hawthorn and struggle to give any sort of credit to other teams. You've been posting for 3 years - more than enough time for us to realize that.

Of course it's Mitch Brown's fault he debuted in a rout. He needed to kick 10 goals for his performance to warrant any sort of praise - because kicking 3 on debut is just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill accomplishment. You're right - he's poor.

I'm not misrepresenting you at all, and you know it. I'm calling you a biased fool and a troll because that's exactly what you are. I've seen more than enough of your posts to recognize that you downplay the performances and accomplishments of a player if they don't play for Hawthorn. That's not a misrepresentation - it's just about as accurate a representation as you'll ever see.

I don't read the Bay, haven't done so in years. So yes I'm sure you do talk up Hawthorn players to ridiculous degrees on there. You also do on the main board, on the polls board, on the Hawks board. That you'd try dispute that is an bordering on insulting because that's basically all you're about.

Brown, Duncan and Christensen have all shown some fantastic signs in their time playing senior football. Brown wasn't poor, Duncan have plenty of development left in him and to suggest otherwise is incredibly naive, and Christensen has shown plenty to suggest that he's better than average.

As I said, put any or all of the 3 in Hawthorn colours and you wouldn't be able to shut up about them, not just on the bay. And no, before you have a cry, that's not a misrepresentation. That's based on everything we've seen you post over the years.

Get over yourself.

The funny thing is Mitch Brown had the same amount of touches, and kicked three times as many goals in that game than Mitch Thorp did in his entire career. So if Mitch Brown looked poor in that game, according to HP, I wonder what he thought of Thorp.