Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion

[Iamcarlton]

Moving Williamson up to a wing is the better option for mine. We can use his disposal going inside 50.

Weitering last year was better that any of those named, with the exclusion of Doc. He provides intercept marking and elite rebound, with an ability to read the play position himself in front of his opponent, and run off him ball in hand and use it well going forwards from defence.



How does 'No' sound. And who on earth said I am not prepared to give these young players time to develop. Learn to read and stop putting words in my mouth.

Im more excited by the direction the club is heading than I have ever been. Im fully mindfull of the fact that Key Forwards take time.

My only argument is we shouldnt put all out eggs in the one basket. We are already talking about moving our best young defender up forward to plug a hole in the forward line caused because (at present) we lack enough of a KPF presence up forward. My line of reasoning is that is a bad idea on anything other than a temporary basis (unless Weits starts kicking bags on a weekly basis, then I might be swayed otherwise!). On exposed form Weits is a far better defender than he is a forward and out team would be much better with him in the backline starting thrusts forward from defence, than wasting away in the forward line contrinuting less than a goal a game.



I dont give a toss how disgraceful you find it. We have the worst forward line in the AFL by a considerable margin. We finished 18th for scoring last year, with a our leading goal kicker being a delisted free agent that kicked 22. We routinely struggled to score despite our defence being fantastic.

Weve been better this year, but thats largely on the back of Casbout kicking straighter. Last year he was beyond abysmal with his kicking. It was a raffle each time.

We sit 18th on points for and are still abysmal in our forward line. Brisbane has scored more than us and they're a rabble. We have one developing key forward (McKay) and have been forced to push a Key Defender (Weits) up forward to create another key position scoring opportunity.

Thats just objective fact. Im not prepared to raffle our future on 'potential' mate. McKay could come on (and I hope beyond hope that he does). But he might not and that leaves us in a very shitty position when the window opens.

We have all our eggs in one basket, and leaving it like that would be irresponsible list management. Fortunately I get the vibe that SOS thinks the same way I do, and is looking for another Key Forward, and soon, so we have two of the developing in the twos, and double the chances of having an effective and potent forward line in a few years time.



Based on exposed form he is 10 times the defender than he is the forward. Dont talk to me about hypotheticals or potential or goblins or elves. I saw him play last year and he was disgustingly good as a 1st year defender. He had '10 year once in a generation defender' stamped all over him, based on exposed form.

I havent seen any marks on a a long lead full forward style. I havent seen him crashing packs like a CHF or running up the ground and doubling back or any other signs to date that he's going to be a gun forward.

Im working off exposed form. You're working off what you hope happens. I hope it happens too mate, but Im working off form and not blue colored glasses.



Lets start with 1995.

Kernahan kicked 63 and Brad Pearce kicked 52. The Premiership before that Kernahan kicked 73 that year.

Its got me ****** why you're opposed to us having a gun key forward.

Just browsed through that cant be bothered anymore until i see you mention opposed to KF im not but priorities imo are midfield with any KF we may or may not need coming later and the mention of Brad Pearce FFS! he was a forward pocket mate that kicked goals because of a dominant backline and midfield . Spalding was our other KF . Clape Rice Williams you know multiple goalkickers . Agree on Williamson tho .

 

[Malifice]

Think we should continue to be savage with our delistings and trade aggressively. No point stopping now.

I think think we probably shouldnt have delisted Vojo-Rainbow last year. Hes been named in the bests for his new side a few years running.

Some players just take more time. It took Dane Swan like 4-5 years to show much.

We need some stability around the club, and honestly, we dont have that much to work with to get in new players seeing as we dont have a second rounder. I dont see the point of delisting someone like Vojo Rainbow or Jacksh (who from all reports its starting to do well) just to draft a player with pick 90-odd or a second round rookie pick in a supposedly shallow draft.

 

[LordLucifer]

Think we should continue to be savage with our delistings and trade aggressively. No point stopping now.

Totally agree, keep turning them over until we have what we need. We have hung on to too many players in the past in the hope that they will kick-on but haven't.

New regime = new process.

 

[LordLucifer]

I think think we probably shouldnt have delisted Vojo-Rainbow last year. Hes been named in the bests for his new side a few years running.

I've nearly agreed with all of your recent comments (even though you did come off looking a tad pompous and/or high & mighty in your reply to Jimmae ) but this is just too way out to agree with.

If he is really carving it up elsewhere (is he at Port Melbourne ??) then he can be redrafted.

Thus far, we haven't been burnt by any of the players we have parted company with over the past two years.

 

[SafeAsMilk]

Liam Jones doesnt have a future with us mate.

Make no mistake, the intent with JW has always been for him to swing up forward from time to time. I approve of him getting an extended run up forward.

We can afford to just leave him there for an extended period of time and see how he gets on. This year and next year are nothing years for us, Levi is a unrestricted F/A and McKay is still a huge question mark.

We might need him to pug that hole for a few years while we desperately try and recruit a Jeremy Cameron via free agency if Levi leaves, and Harry doesnt come on. Of all our key defenders, Weits is the only one with forward experience. Alex Silvagni is going a good job, and can probably do so for another 2-3 years.

God help is if Levi leaves, Harry doesnt come on, and we cant poach a gun Key Forward before 2020 though.

Lets not sugar coat this; we have the worst forward line (including our half forward line) in the AFL, and by a considerable margin.

Why can't we just have a functioning forward line that spreads the load?

Our problem is creating inside 50s at the moment, which comes from the midfield. We've got a 195cm midfielder taking contested marks in the forward line, you've got Charlie Curnow who spends a lot of time down there, and Jack will be a quality third tall. That's without even considering Ben, who our list manager is in the best possible position to plan around, whether he is good enough to make it or not.

 

[BluesRule]

Byrne + 2018 2rd Round pick for Schache. Very High risk trade for both clubs. But given Brisbane have Hipwood developing nicely and we have a plethora of small defenders could be win-win. Byrne looks a super talent and is young enough to get over his injuries so not sure I like it.

 

[Coona Blues]

Kerr was pick 70, doesnt count. He's a hit and hope, nothing ventured nothing gained pick. Curnow isnt a key forward - he's a utility. SOSOS is a half forward. Jacksh was a bust. McKay could be as well (needs time). He's the only developing key forward we have at present.

We need to find a KP Forward so Weitering can go back into defence.

I am so over you disrespecting a decent portion of our list. If I were to go back and tally, you have dedicated dozens of pages to your own narrow view of things. Give someone else a go.

Weitering is a second year player, in a post in your current barrage, you state there is an urgency to draft another KPF as it takes
3-4 years to develop one. JW played predominately 3rd tall down back last year, with some sporadic time on the guns, his rise can
not yet be attributed to dominant KPD. Similarly as a 2nd year KPF (could be argued 1st in position) you have gleaned categorically
that he is a lesser KPF. Conjecture your honour.

"Curnow isn't a KPF" - he is a potentially very versatile player, I contend that even Bolton is not totally certain what his ultimate role
is to be. Certainly KPF is a realistic possibility.

SOSOS with time could play as a KPF, although I would not argue it as being likely.

McKay as a "beanpole" KPF was always going to take time to reach optimum performance. Given that he was actually 17 when drafted,
it is not unrealistic that he will take 5 seasons to peak. Hopefully in the foreseeable future, he gets a taste, and his effectiveness can
begin to grow.

Kerr may be a "late pick", but has as many creds as any KPF drafted last year (Marshall, Battle etc). Potential suitors were aware of
his Carlton heritage, the hit or miss of young KPP stepping up combined with his clear allegiance contributed to that number. His efforts
in the first few weeks of his senior career have been impressive, even to a myriad of doubters, who have attested to that on these pages.

Casboult is open to debate, but has been valuable to date this season, other than his KPF duties, he is critical to the team as the second
ruck. Few would be in favour of playing both Kreuzer and Phillips in preference. Jones has elevated and added strings to the bow, let's
allow those closer to the action to assess his worth going forward. Jaksch has been a pain in the ****, talented but lazy, probably
entitled. He has stepped up this season and reports suggest has finally put on some size. Again judgement for the inner sanctum.

Marchbank and Macreadie were both touted at their time of trade/draft as being possible forwards. Macreadie in particular would be
likely to get some forward time in the 2's later in the year. Our hands are a little tied atm giving McKay and Kerr development time, as
well as accommodating Jaksch, Jones and Gorringe.

It would be absolutely ludicrous to dedicate our top pick to another key forward requiring years of development. (unless we can add
three young gun, semi developed mids by trade) If our key forward "boys" don't measure up or (Charlie) develop elsewhere, then
free agency will have to be our friend sometime in the next year or three.

 

[HARKER]

Moving Williamson up to a wing is the better option for mine. We can use his disposal going inside 50.

No brainer. Has the tank to run all day, cleanliness of disposal, footy smarts and will.

It's not that's he's not valuable down back, but even at this early stage is showing up quality offensive weapons.

 

[Malifice]

Just browsed through that cant be bothered anymore until i see you mention opposed to KF im not but priorities imo are midfield with any KF we may or may not need coming later and the mention of Brad Pearce FFS! he was a forward pocket mate that kicked goals because of a dominant backline and midfield . Spalding was our other KF . Clape Rice Williams you know multiple goalkickers . Agree on Williamson tho .

I get that you want more Mids, and thats cool. I treat your opinions (and you) with respect. I dont try and draw some conclusion that this must mean you dont rate Cripps, or allude to you thinking that the mids we have developing in the twos are all hacks (which you basically accused me of doing).

I want another (quality) KPF (Hawkins/ Cameron/ Patton like) developing in the twos so we have two of them. That lets us shift Weitering down back where he has displayed better football to date, and gives us double the chances of having a gun key forward when the window opens, and chance of possibly snaring two.

I know this runs contrary to group think, but I think the group think on this one is wrong, and Im going to express that opinion, and Im not going to sit there and get slagged off and shouted down be the 'the forward line is good enough, lets draft a shitload of mids and leave Weitering up forward; brigade.

Our forward line has been a shambles for years now. I can show you whatever statistic you want for me to back that claim up. Now we finally have our defence sorted, and people want to patch over that shambles of a forward line by throwing arguably our best young defender down there.

**** that. Get in in another key forward, AND gun mids. Send Weits down back where he belongs, and lets get McKay and a second gun forward giving our mids and defenders something to kick at, and avenues for us to score so the ball doesnt keep coking back into D50.

If opining that on a list management forum makes me a bad person, who hates the club and wants all the players to fail, and is just a bad person then so be it.

 

[HARKER]

I want another (quality) KPF (Hawkins/ Cameron/ Patton like) developing in the twos so we have two of them. That lets us shift Weitering down back where he has displayed better football to date, and gives us double the chances of having a gun key forward when the window opens, and chance of possibly snaring two.

I'll be surprised if Weitering plays the back-line any better than Marchbank has been, to date....even though he's played more games already.
The mobile back-line makes sense but if we do need to pit gorilla vs gorilla, Weitering may come up short.
We have a winner in Macreadie also. Love his game as the third tall.

So much to throw around. Fun times.

 

[LanceRomance]

I'll be surprised if Weitering plays the back-line any better than Marchbank has been, to date....even though he's played more games already.
The mobile back-line makes sense but if we do need to pit gorilla vs gorilla, Weitering may come up short.
We have a winner in Macreadie also. Love his game as the third tall.

So much to throw around. Fun times.

All hinges on what we do with White really...

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Malifice you are entitled to your opinion and so are others, reading some of your posts they come across as bullying.I don't want to get in a slanging match about this but maybe if you put your opinions forward in a less confrontational way. It just feels like you are slamming your opinions down peoples throats.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

Byrne + 2018 2rd Round pick for Schache. Very High risk trade for both clubs. But given Brisbane have Hipwood developing nicely and we have a plethora of small defenders could be win-win. Byrne looks a super talent and is young enough to get over his injuries so not sure I like it.

Brisbane won't like it either so yeah not a chance.

 

[Malifice]

Malifice you are entitled to your opinion and so are others, reading some of your posts they come across as bullying.I don't want to get in a slanging match about this but maybe if you put your opinions forward in a less confrontational way. It just feels like you are slamming your opinions down peoples throats.

Its because I've repeatedly been accused in this thread of hating on the players, slagging them off, being disloyal for not watching the twos, and being a shit supporter.

Its gotten me quite angry to be honest mate.

Ive actually been holding back. Of course I am doped out of my eyeballs on Tramadol at the moment and havent slept in two days.

 

[DirkDiggler]

We had 33 forward entries on Saturday. Not saying we don't need another gun forward but the inability of our mids to feed our forwards seems to me to be a higher list management priority.

Just saying

Dirk

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Its because I've repeatedly been accused in this thread of hating on the players, slagging them off, being disloyal for not watching the twos, and being a shit supporter.

Its gotten me quite angry to be honest mate.

Ive actually been holding back. Of course I am doped out of my eyeballs on Tramadol at the moment and havent slept in two days.

You need to find your happy place.

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

 

[Malifice]

We had 33 forward entries on Saturday. Not saying we don't need another gun forward but the inability of our mids to feed our forwards seems to me to be a higher list management priority.

Just saying

Dirk

All of the breakdowns happened across the half forward line. Watch the game again man I shit you not.

Wright drops a sitter on the lead just outside 50 - turnover, goal.

Silvagni overruns the ball forward of center on the wing. Turnover, goal.

SPS gets tagged out of the game (Saints coach talked about tagging him on the telly) to shut down our half forward line. Weitering offers little.

The defenders work hard all day to get the ball forward, but we broke down across the half forward line (where we generally do).

My kingdom for a CHF clunking marks, while a stay at home forward keeps opposition defenders scared in a one on one in space.

 

[ferrisb]

Malifice you are entitled to your opinion and so are others, reading some of your posts they come across as bullying.I don't want to get in a slanging match about this but maybe if you put your opinions forward in a less confrontational way. It just feels like you are slamming your opinions down peoples throats.

Now is the winter of our Malcontent...

Sorry Malifice, couldn't help myself. Hope you're feeling better soon.

 

[DirkDiggler]

All of the breakdowns happened across the half forward line. Watch the game again man I shit you not.

Wright drops a sitter on the lead just outside 50 - turnover, goal.

Silvagni overruns the ball forward of center on the wing. Turnover, goal.

SPS gets tagged out of the game (Saints coach talked about tagging him on the telly) to shut down our half forward line. Weitering offers little.

The defenders work hard all day to get the ball forward, but we broke down across the half forward line (where we generally do).

My kingdom for a CHF clunking marks, while a stay at home forward keeps opposition defenders scared in a one on one in space.

I prefer weits down back but given they are doing so well without him I think we can afford this luxury.

Your argument about the missed opportunities still does not counter the fact that we got the ball in our forward arc only 33 times. Can't recall such a low figure.

Dirk

 

[Malifice]

Now is the winter of our Malcontent...

Sorry Malifice, couldn't help myself. Hope you're feeling better soon.

Thanks man. Im out of the wheelchair finally but the ankles are rooted. Cant walk more than 20 paces. Still unsure how much of that I'll get back.

Trust me on this, you never want to fracture those heel bones. They are right bastard breaks.

 

[Malifice]

I prefer weits down back but given they are doing so well without him I think we can afford this luxury.

Your argument about the missed opportunities still does not counter the fact that we got the ball in our forward arc only 33 times. Can't recall such a low figure.

Dirk

I recall about 5 forward thrusts that broke down around the F50 arc. Wrights dropped mark was one, and SOSOS overrunning a ball was another. Both in the third quarter.

We would repel them inside their f50. They were able to slot a lot more long range goals than us. That dude with the shaved head and 3 of Billings were slotted from outside 50. Our only one from outside 50 was Gibbs from memory. The one just before the fight.

For what its worth Im not saying we shouldnt draft mids. I rate our needs wishlist as

1 x 60 goal roving KPF, 1 x good young Ruck, 4-6 A grade Mids (2 of whom are elite).

 

[ferrisb]

Thanks man. Im out of the wheelchair finally but the ankles are rooted. Cant walk more than 20 paces. Still unsure how much of that I'll get back.

Trust me on this, you never want to fracture those heel bones. They are right bastard breaks.

Holy ****.

Suddenly, tearing my ACL a couple of months ago doesn't seem so serious.

Lame advice, but keep your chin up as best you can. Got my fingers and toes crossed for you.

For the record, I don't think you're disrespecting anyone on the list. You just think draftees are unproven until proven. And until then it's all potential. Surprised more shell-shocked Carlton supporters don't feel like this. And that higher draft picks have a higher chance of making it. Nothing controversial there either.

 

[Metalcrusher]

We had 33 forward entries on Saturday. Not saying we don't need another gun forward but the inability of our mids to feed our forwards seems to me to be a higher list management priority.

Just saying

Dirk

And there you have it. 33 entries for 16 scoring shots ...... Raise that to 50-60 entries and we start seeing 100+ points scores. Its simply maths really ... the more entries .. the more chances.

Get better midfielders ...

 

[Coona Blues]

Its because I've repeatedly been accused in this thread of hating on the players, slagging them off, being disloyal for not watching the twos, and being a shit supporter.

Its gotten me quite angry to be honest mate.

Ive actually been holding back. Of course I am doped out of my eyeballs on Tramadol at the moment and havent slept in two days.

Lay off that shit mate, doctors had me on it for almost a year. Asked to get off as was destroying organs and not great for mind. Told I would be on it for life. Went cold turkey. Pain can be a real bitch, but better off without it. Two days is nothing....didn't sleep for two weeks. Gives a real insight
into the dramas "druggies" have getting clean.

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Byrne + 2018 2rd Round pick for Schache. Very High risk trade for both clubs. But given Brisbane have Hipwood developing nicely and we have a plethora of small defenders could be win-win. Byrne looks a super talent and is young enough to get over his injuries so not sure I like it.

Hey, yeah, how about they package up Bell and Robinson and a future second rounder for Weiters?

Schache will be a quality player. Get him out of a garbage side and give him a couple of years development and he'll be a ripper. The whole league knows it, so there's no way he'll go that cheaply.