List Mgmt. 2017 Trade & FA Targets Part 2

[Joffaboy]

Confirmed.

Increase 1st round picks by 50% over a 3 year period. This was a bit confusing & misquoted but achieved by trading Ben & Rhys & then continued on with the addition of JC, Steele, etc


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Also lost a first rounder in 2016 so we have teo in 2017.

Also trading rules changed. No trading of future picks when the strategy started.
Traded a future for Freeman.

Also need flexability. Two free second rounders for delaying our first.

So how did this A grade myth come about and why was it being used as a measure?

 

[Yawkey way]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but the plan was to deliver flags.

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.

 

[Longmembrey]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but the plan was to deliver flags.

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.

Are you saying that we havent drafted any A graders?

 

[Rors]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but he the plan was to deliver flags

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.

We are on track.

We have 2 first round selections this year & $2.9mil in cap space.....

Things are looking good going forward. Just sort out the ****ing goal kicking & everything would look a lot better with 2-3 more wins in the win column.

*We let Melbourne kick 7 straight in round 1 while in the same quarter we kicked 1.6.

*West Coast game - we all know we should have been 10 goals up at half time.

*Port game - should have won by about 20 points.

If we don't make finals, I'll be disappointed but at the same time, we've copped a harder draw & finished around the same as last year off an easy 'bottom 6' draw so that's improvement. Yeah, I'm as frustrated as the next person, but I'm looking forward to the next 4 months - we'll either get a Kelly or Martin or we take 2 top 10 kids in the draft.

 

[saint_]

I'm going to say we are going to pull the trigger on a quality player. We actually still need to pay 95% of the cap. We can't leave the millions be and give it to the rest of the team. Or else we'll be like Melbourne 10 years ago where they paid all those spuds 95% of the cap, whilst a quality team like Geelong won off the same money.

 

[Snailspace13]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but the plan was to deliver flags.

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.[/QUOTE.The bluebrint set was to be top 4 by 2018 and a premiership in 2020.If that blueprint is a year out who cares.
So we still have at least 2more trade and draft periods,to achieve the latter.

 

[VDS66]

And grasping at straws with a couple of those, fmd freezer and dmac but apparently were right on track.

I'm not grasping at anything mate. I'm as chilled as **** about these things. Just adding to the discussion. But by all means. Show me where I said everything was 100%?

When was Dmac selected? Freezer went pick 10 in his draft.

Granted he hasn't done anything, but show me where 100% of first round picks make it.

I reckon the club has drafted as good as it can, with only Paddy having a question mark at this stage. The trading in of players has been phenomenal given what little we have had to pay. Even Jake still gave us a first round lol.

Carry on...

 

[pebblesofsand]

I'm going to say we are going to pull the trigger on a quality player. We actually still need to pay 95% of the cap. We can't leave the millions be and give it to the rest of the team. Or else we'll be like Melbourne 10 years ago where they paid all those spuds 95% of the cap, whilst a quality team like Geelong won off the same money.

If we don't land a big name gun or two how about all the OOC Saints players line up on the arc for a goal kicking comp - best of 15 kicks from 40 metres out left centre and right - winner takes all, one year contract - balance of the salary cap for the next season - Thursday night live up against the Footy Show - will rate its a$%#@ off!!!

It would be a laugh a minute as Billings, Gilbert and Lonie all try to score at least a single behind in 15 shots.

OOC end of 2017

Jack Billings 4 Non-Free Agent
Jack Lonie 3 Non-Free Agent
Jason Holmes 4 Non-Free Agent
Leigh Montagna 16 Unrestricted Free Agent
Nicholas Coughlan 2 Non-Free Agent
Nick O'Kearney 2 Non-Free Agent
Nick Riewoldt 17 Unrestricted Free Agent
Rowan Marshall 1 Non-Free Agent
Sam Gilbert 12 Unrestricted Free Agent
Sean Dempster 10 Unrestricted Free Agent
Shane Savage 4 Non-Free Agent

 

[VDS66]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but the plan was to deliver flags.

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.

Common sense and objectivity?

By who's standards are we judging?

You are seriously getting unhinged here.

If the plan was to win a flag by 2020, how can you state we have failed. Have magically hopped into the Delorean and woken up in 2021?

Yet to be convinced? You'll never be until we win one.

I'll ask you the same question: if we win one in 2021, will you deem it a failure?

I mean seriously, the club can only take care of what is on its control.

If you somehow believe that the plan realistically cones with an ironclad guarantee, then...

By all means, let's discuss the fair value of Kelly... but some of bullshit disguised as intelligent debate is mind boggling.

 

[Yawkey way]

That's my point snail don't be dogmatic, who gives a rats if we're out by a year or two.

Look so long as people realise that a Kelly or a Martin is just part of the journey not the end then fine.

Just don't forget that you can't spend the picks or cash twice, once this window we have created is gone that's it, were back in the pack.

That means being around 6 - 10 and just having a bit of room in the cap.

I'd rather get in some more talent then unload.

 

[Yawkey way]

Common sense and objectivity?

Do you really think unloading on a Kelly or Martin will get us to where we need to be?.

 

[gringo2011]

FMD. You need to watch more GWS games if you think he's a diamond encrusted Gaff. He gets more contested ball than anyone in our team. In fact, he would walk into our team as our best player.

Not sure if it's been said, but Kelly is going better than Shiel & Treloar were 2 years ago when everyone on here was wanting to sell the farm for them & pay them a mint. Well, Josh Kelly is better now than both those players were at the time so it should give an idea of how good he is & what he's worth long term.

Pay him a mint. Don't give a shit what we pay him, we have $2.9mil to spend

Edit: I agree with SS, Kelly is like an injury free Daniel Wells with better endurance & gut running capabilities. I'd pay a mint for that

It sounds great spending the money now when as you said we have a bunch of shit trucks that couldn't win a ball in one of those ball pits at Ikea. It's if we have kids make it to a good level that we have all our money tied up in one player that it's an issue. I have watched him and he doesn't smack you in the face as the best player on the ground. I have watched a few games of theirs this year and he was very good but not amazing. I'd like Daniel Wells at his best with no injuries for sure. I hope you're right.

 

[VDS66]

That's my point snail don't be dogmatic, who gives a rats if we're out by a year or two.

Look so long as people realise that a Kelly or a Martin is just part of the journey not the end then fine.

Just don't forget that you can't spend the picks or cash twice, once this window we have created is gone that's it, were back in the pack.

That means being around 6 - 10 and just having a bit of room in the cap.

I'd rather get in some more talent then unload.

FMD... quick poll...

How many think that Kelly will automatically win us a flag?

 

[Yawkey way]

I'm going to say we are going to pull the trigger on a quality player. We actually still need to pay 95% of the cap. We can't leave the millions be and give it to the rest of the team. Or else we'll be like Melbourne 10 years ago where they paid all those spuds 95% of the cap, whilst a quality team like Geelong won off the same money.

That's not new we're doing it, norfs doing it the bloody afl are making you pay the spuds 95%, it's a scandal.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

To all those arguing that we are right on track, please spare me you know we are well short of where we should be.

It is pointless to argue that we are on track, we aren't and it sounds like a communist five year plan.

The only stupid part is failing to acknowledge where we are, I'm sure Richo and a few others have a vested interest in bringing in guys like Martin or Kelly I'm yet to be convinced it's in the clubs best interest.

They will argue that we have improved but the plan was to deliver flags.

If you see a flag in this team then I'm surely missing something.

Here's what I posted after the Member's night in August 2013. You tell me where they have stuffed up & left the plan;

I was lucky enough to go along last night & it was an absolutely outstanding initiative by the club. It was all a bit of a blur with some great insight into the future direction of our beloved club. Here's a few things that I can remember;
The night started with Shane Wakelin (filling in for Nettles who was in NZ signing off on an extension of the Wellington deal) who amongst other things confirmed;

*NZ deal to stay at 1 game per year for the next 3 years. Possibility to extend to 1 pre season & another H&A game.
*Saints keen to sign alignment with Sandy for another 2 years. Saints stand alone team playing out of Moorabbin from 2016.
*Moorabbin #1 Community Development Priority for the AFL

Wakes introduced Chris who ran through a brief career history & background of how he came to be at St Kilda. His heartfelt insight into his relationship with Yabby showed to all present that this man is not only the right man for the job of building a St Kilda Premiership side but also that it is a very personal quest for him. Yabby asked Chris to "look after my Saints" during their last time together before the great man passed...

A summary of where our list sits against other clubs (a bit depressing) followed by an analysis of drafting/retention rates (morbid depression) set the picture of where we are & where we need to go.

Chris compared our current situation to where Hawthorn was in 2004 (& he intimately knows both situations).

The list analysis explained how clubs rate players both at their club & at all other clubs using Champion Data & some internal analysis. Chris spoke of the top 12 players at a club being the key to finals success & ran through how premiership teams from 1999-2012 rated (Bris of 2002 & Geel of 2009 were rated the best sides of that timeframe & had 15 Category 1 (elite across the whole competition) or Category 2 (very high consistent performers) player in their sides. He did say that St Kilda was exceptionally unlucky to cop the equal best side of the last 15 years when we had our highest rated side (12 Cat.1 or 2 players).

There was a strategic list plan, including trade targets (with names XXXX'ed out unfortunately) but a goal of having 4 top 20 picks during the next 3 drafts (so a need to trade in another 1st round pick at some stage- possibly this year). A few trade/draft points summarised;

*CP categorically stated that pick 3 would not be traded.

*GWS playing funny buggers with pick 1- attempting to destablise clubs.

* Talking with 5 key defenders (1 of who contracted- which I assume is Frawley) Age ranging from 19-27.

*Supporters should prepare for unpopular decisions at trade time.

*Dal's contract trigger point- games played- has been reached. Will remain on FA list until his new contract has been submitted to the AFL (which will be after the FA period).

*2014=tough... 2015=sneak up on a few sides, positive signs...2016=clear positive momentum...2017= finals....2018-22= challenging for flag

*Said that should Saad's B sample be positive he will be unable to attend the club in any way shape or form other than to provide anti drug education sessions or receive drug counselling. He can't be employed as a groundsman, in marketing or anything. They are very concerned about Saady's welfare & how the club can support him. They are awaiting direction from the AFL as to whether he can remain on the list.

There was heaps more (Chris spoke for 2 hours) so I'll add some more as it comes back to me.

I left feeling more positive & excited about our future than at any time I can remember. As members we need to hang tough & see this period out..... & get as many supporters to financially support the club as possible.

I said to a mate at the time that I reckon Pelchen could be our best recruit ever... after last night I am absolutely convinced of that. Good times are ahead...

--------------------
The highlighted sections are relevant to your viewpoint. Despite terribly inconsistent performances we are still in the mix to sneak into the finals.

Your argument that the plan hasn't worked is like pulling a lamb roast out of the oven after 30 minutes and complaining that it's undercooked. This post season is critical in bringing in more talent. This season has seen some real positives but also the inconsistent performances that developing teams throw up from time to time.

Your opinion is well noted. No one is right until we can look back in hindsight. Getting aggro about it & acting like you know it all is pretty pointless. I had an argument with someone on here early last season when I posted that I saw similarities between 2016 & 2003. Whoever that was certainly didnt think we woulc only miss out on the finals by percentage.

As a Saints supporter you can either be a defeatist and be right often or be positive and one day be able to say 'stick that right up your ar5e' to the naysayers.

 

[VDS66]

It sounds great spending the money now when as you said we have a bunch of shit trucks that couldn't win a ball in one of those ball pits at Ikea. It's if we have kids make it to a good level that we have all our money tied up in one player that it's an issue. I have watched him and he doesn't smack you in the face as the best player on the ground. I have watched a few games of theirs this year and he was very good but not amazing. I'd like Daniel Wells at his best with no injuries for sure. I hope you're right.

(Softly speaking) do you honestly think the club had put in all this work to simply **** it all up on one trade?

Do you honestly believe that the club won't make changes to ensure we keep our best?

 

[Mowman]

FMD... quick poll...

How many think that Kelly will automatically win us a flag?

Guaranteed 3 peat

 

[gringo2011]

(Softly speaking) do you honestly think the club had put in all this work to simply **** it all up on one trade?

Do you honestly believe that the club won't make changes to ensure we keep our best?

I honestly don't trust anyone involved in our club to do much right through experience. We have a knack for ****ing up.

 

[Yawkey way]

FMD... quick poll...

How many think that Kelly will automatically win us a flag?

Long term commitment on the buddy scale to what end?.

Why not hit the draft and pick the eyes out of the available young players.

With the money we have there really is nothing that special about the players available, most years will throw up just as good.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Do you really think unloading on a Kelly or Martin will get us to where we need to be?.

Have I missed something & this trade period is our last chance to get talent into the club? Is free agency being closed? No more kids drafted?

What a load of BS.

A shocking argument. We have no A Grade talent so let's not trade for an A Grade talent.

FMD.

 

[Joffaboy]

Do you really think unloading on a Kelly or Martin will get us to where we need to be?.

Could you tell me where the A grade myth came from?

Just because

1) your argument about Kelly not being any good was countered with fact

2) your argument about our rebuild has been countered with fact

There is mo need to resort to silly post like the one quoted above.

Nobody has argued that Kelly alone will make a difference.

It is simply not that simplistic.

Our rebuild is partly done. I never felt we were a final team tnis year. I alwzys thought it was a development year.

Our team on the weekend was the third youngest in the league. There is a tonne of improvement in the young players.

We are getting there. We have a beauty in Steele, Ross and Steven are just about elite.
Acres and Dunstan are set to shine. Robbo and Jimmy are improving. Gresh will be a star, Billings gets better and better, Carlisle will be better next year, Members grows, and we havent even seen Paddy, Goddard or Freeman, but you say the rebuild is a fail.

Patently untrue. Games this year show what we are capable of. With a Kelly and more improvement in the players above plus White, Marshall, NoK, Connellan etc, we have the makings of a finals team next year goung top 4 in 2019.

But as VDS66 said carry on, you seem to have it in your head that the Saints are a fail and need to rebuild with two 18 y.o potentals.

OK.

 

[Rors]

FMD... quick poll...

How many think that Kelly will automatically win us a flag?

Not many, but it would make our midfield about 30% stronger immediately IMHO, especially with BFF Jack Steele getting a full preseason in, Ross better again, Dunstan well & truly over his shoulder woes, Billy stronger & more mature, Jack Steven playing small forward role rotating through the middle.

 

[Rors]

Do you really think unloading on a Kelly or Martin will get us to where we need to be?.

Inserting Kelly or Martin makes us a lot better.

Martin has been the equal, if not better than Dangerfield this year. So hypothetically you think that adding Dangerfield wouldn't give us a big leg up to where we need to be?

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

 

[StCicatriz]

Jon Ralphs article is a flaming pile of shit. Offers up literally no new information nor does he suggest any actual decent trade target

 

[gringo2011]

Inserting Kelly or Martin makes us a lot better.

Martin has been the equal, if not better than Dangerfield this year. So hypothetically you think that adding Dangerfield wouldn't give us a big leg up to where we need to be?

Do you know how absurd that sounds?

I'm keen on Martin but I don't think I can remember one player being of such a huge worth to a club ever as Danger last year. With Selwood a bit down he carried them single handedly and changed their fortunes. If you can guarantee me that Kelly or Martin does that for us I'm in.