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Analysis 2018 List Management discussion Pt 2

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I hear what you're saying but I believe they should have let the media talk die out (would only have taken a few days) and see how the rest of the season panned out. I believe in the process but a PP doesn't cut across that process, it accelerates the renewal.

Would it though? Wasn't too long after that Brisbane mentioned they'd probably apply again, as they always do. As soon as that came up Whately, Cornes & co would be straight back on us, "why haven't we told them we're applying too?!" followed by "Carlton don't deserve one!" and everything else that comes with that. Rinse and repeat.

All it takes is one slow news week/day where they need to generate some content so the simple solution that always gets traction is to rip on us; we've got enough supporters that some will call in or write comments kicking up a stink and there's more than enough supporters from other clubs that still hate us so they call up and comment too.

Sorry, I'm not pissed off and blame is not something I'm big on. I'm merely making an observation that I don't consider that to be the smartest move the club could make.

I even concede that it may have been part of the clubs strategy, I can't see it, but I'm not in there.

Don't know if that makes sense and may be a bit ambiguous but I'm not angry, just a tad puzzled.

Incidentally this is the first comment I've made on the PP.

All good. At the end of they day all of talk about the PP is centered around what we know, which isn't all that much aside from that the club said "we ain't interested". I would imagine there was a fair bit that went on backstage before they came to the conclusion that the statement was the right outcome.

If it is the case that we don't qualify for a PP due to some reason (number of draft picks in the doors recently, the 42 moved on, number of wins over the previous 2 years, whatever) then making the "we don't want a pick, we believe in the foundations we've built" statement and not going on public record to say "we think we need one and enquired but were rejected" is a better PR move.
 
Player Developmet is our biggest issue full stop and has been for about 10 years. We have an uncanny talent in finding talented young kids and undeveloping them into run of the mill players will bad skills. Rinse and repeat.

David Cuningham is a prime example. Pick 23 in the draft, clearly has talent but is he a better player now than when we drafted him in 2015? Not a chance.

Has played 16 games in 3 years. Has a full preseason and doesn't get selected for rnd 1 (on form - how is this possible, what the **** are they doing down there) and was dropped after playing the next 3 games when we could barely put together 22 players. Absolute indictment on our club the way he has been developed and managed. We continually see it player after player after player.

And lets not get started on how far back Weitering has fallen. Shell of the player he was in his first year when we hadn't had enough time to undevelop him.
Yet we roast the Gold Coast suns for poor development, we have been just as bad as them. Good post.

Do we see this improving? It just has to, otherwise we will be perpetually a bottom 4 club as the route we have chosen (the right one) is to get young players and develop them. I think weiters will be alright, SPS has shown signs, Fisher, Curnow, etc but we need a better hit/miss rate.
 

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Literally only 2 players who I would like on our list who left/delisted.. with view to the 2020 beyond.
Gowers
Holman

Right now, both would be getting regular games.
But note, both these players would end up being in mix for 20th to 30th best players on our list in 3 years
 
Literally only 2 players who I would like on our list who left/delisted.. with view to the 2020 beyond.
Gowers
Holman

Right now, both would be getting regular games.
But note, both these players would end up being in mix for 20th to 30th best players on our list in 3 years
In Gowers example he has put his hand up and said he wasted his opportunity with us and getting delisted was the kick in the butt that he needed. Sometimes it is more to do with the player than the club.

Everyone holds up Hawthorn as this great place to be and a good developer of talent. They had Sam Menengola on their list who was delisted and had to go back to the WAFL to have another crack before Geelong gave him another chance.
 
Player Developmet is our biggest issue full stop and has been for about 10 years. We have an uncanny talent in finding talented young kids and undeveloping them into run of the mill players will bad skills. Rinse and repeat.

David Cuningham is a prime example. Pick 23 in the draft, clearly has talent but is he a better player now than when we drafted him in 2015? Not a chance.

Has played 16 games in 3 years. Has a full preseason and doesn't get selected for rnd 1 (on form - how is this possible, what the **** are they doing down there) and was dropped after playing the next 3 games when we could barely put together 22 players. Absolute indictment on our club the way he has been developed and managed. We continually see it player after player after player.

And lets not get started on how far back Weitering has fallen. Shell of the player he was in his first year when we hadn't had enough time to undevelop him.

Maybe he just isn't good enough?
 
Ill bite.

TL;DR respond to the post ….. list the players and I will do my utmost, whilst I still maintain motor function to do so.

Now ….. I'll work with the ones you have given me.


Hendo …. actively stopped playing 1/2 way through the 2015 season to get the message to CFC he wanted out. If we had of "kept" him …. what was the benefit to CFC? FFS he even got his mother involved in trying to sort out a trade. Real mans .. man that one. Can make decisions all by himself. He had his "best year" in 2013 playing his career best footy for CFC. He did not WANT to stay at CFC!

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Ranked 9th in Total Marks in 2013
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Ranked 3rd in Total Contested Marks in 2013
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Ranked 9th in Total Time On Ground % in 2013
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Ranked 7th in Contested Marks Per Game in 2013

That was 5 years ago ….

BTW Hendo has not played a game this year … so how would he have value added to CFC if he was still playing for us?????

He is the epitome of wasted talent with a shithouse, egocentric look at moi look at moi attitude.

Touhy …. Sat down for a contract negotiation that didn't quite play out how was expected. CFC gave him a number …. Touhy chose another path. Excellent … business models working as intended within the free market. Play on.

Lets look at some of his recent career highlights....
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Ranked 9th in Total Turnovers in 2018
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Ranked 3rd in Total Turnovers in 2017

BTW those stats are competition wide …. not exclusive to GFC.

Just what you need playing in defence …. cough the ball up where it hurts …. CFC made an offer he declined it … CFC valued him at X … didn't like it … fair enough play on.

What was your last one??? Gibba …. ah yes … I love Gibbsie. Always have. Quality player.

Bryce...
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...e-gibbs-move-to-adelaide-20171129-gzv0c3.html

Ok so a former Number 1 wants to go home …. he tried it once …. Reid ****** it up big time. Google it, if you want hilarity and much mirth. The next year he approached the club again …… this time it worked. Both clubs paid and delivered what they should have delivered the year prior.

What did you want CFC to do here? Hold a player against their will because of family support and ties? Whilst they are building a new family??? How should have Carlton played this better?

Scenario: Worker comes to you and says boss … love this club .. but missus wants to be back with family … where we have more support to raise the young ones. Appreciate what you have given me / us … but circumstances have changed personally, can you help us out? I won't publicly lambast the club … just try to reach a deal where it is fair on both parties...…

Seriously those are the three names you gave me ….
Do you mind if i copy and paste this elsewhere? Its perfect.

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Secondly we didn't have to cut our list so much if we wanted to be competitive. But we decided to get rid of those who wont be part of our future planned success or were not working hard enough even though it meant we would be less competitive. This was our choice and we don't deserve a handout.

Bullshit. Ok we keep gibbs, then what?

Oh joy, we finish 16th. Whats the point of being competitive if its not going to lead anywhere?

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Player Developmet is our biggest issue full stop and has been for about 10 years. We have an uncanny talent in finding talented young kids and undeveloping them into run of the mill players will bad skills. Rinse and repeat.

David Cuningham is a prime example. Pick 23 in the draft, clearly has talent but is he a better player now than when we drafted him in 2015? Not a chance.

Has played 16 games in 3 years. Has a full preseason and doesn't get selected for rnd 1 (on form - how is this possible, what the **** are they doing down there) and was dropped after playing the next 3 games when we could barely put together 22 players. Absolute indictment on our club the way he has been developed and managed. We continually see it player after player after player.

And lets not get started on how far back Weitering has fallen. Shell of the player he was in his first year when we hadn't had enough time to undevelop him.
I guess we should sack bolts and co and let you be the whole coaching panel, obviously you know more about our list and football in general.

My only question is do you wanna keep sos or are you going to take over that department as well?

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In Gowers example he has put his hand up and said he wasted his opportunity with us and getting delisted was the kick in the butt that he needed. Sometimes it is more to do with the player than the club.

Everyone holds up Hawthorn as this great place to be and a good developer of talent. They had Sam Menengola on their list who was delisted and had to go back to the WAFL to have another crack before Geelong gave him another chance.
But....but, the narrative.

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Bullshit. Ok we keep gibbs, then what?

Oh joy, we finish 16th. Whats the point of being competitive if its not going to lead anywhere?

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I guess we should sack bolts and co and let you be the whole coaching panel, obviously you know more about our list and football in general.

My only question is do you wanna keep sos or are you going to take over that department as well?

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Someone has woken on the wrong side of the bed and for some reason takes my post personally.

My posts are in relation to people crying because we aren't asking for a PP or going to get one. We don't deserve one, we have had enough top end picks to be better than what we are. But because we cant develop players and have decided to cut our list so deep that we were always going to be uncompetitive.
 
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Someone has woken on the wrong side of the bed and for some reason takes my post personally.

My posts are in relation to people crying because we aren't asking for a PP or going to get one. We don't deserve one, we have had enough top end picks to be better than what we are. But because we cant develop players and have decided to cut our list so deep that we were always going to be uncompetitive.
Yeah maybe. Ill cop that.

Re: PP

My issue isnt necessarily us not applying.

Its the thought of us not applying then Bris and GC get one each and the afl just saying "you should have applied". Everything should be on the table until the end of the year.

Brisbane got one 2 years ago and turned it into berry or witherden i have forgotten which. Pretty decent player both.

We could use an end of 1st selection. Especially as trade currency.

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I honestly believe the AFL is making it incredibly difficult for lowly teams to rise.

The bottom teams have only a marginal "draft" advantage over the top teams.

Yet the top teams can continually raid the bottom teams and get gun players for free.

This just exacerbates the talent gulf.

Until the AFL deal with this anomaly- welcome to the EPL version of the AFL.

Gil McLachlan has said he wants to make it easier for bottom teams to rise - I've yet to see any evidence he is doing something to achieve this.
 
Someone has woken on the wrong side of the bed and for some reason takes my post personally.

My posts are in relation to people crying because we aren't asking for a PP or going to get one. We don't deserve one, we have had enough top end picks to be better than what we are. But because we cant develop players and have decided to cut our list so deep that we were always going to be uncompetitive.
To qualify for a priority pick you need to have finished down the bottom of the ladder for several years. If you’ve finished down the bottom of the ladder for several years you’ll have had several top end draft picks.

If you don’t like priority picks at all just say that, don’t make redundant arguments
 
I honestly believe the AFL is making it incredibly difficult for lowly teams to rise.

The bottom teams have only a marginal "draft" advantage over the top teams.

Yet the top teams can continually raid the bottom teams and get gun players for free.

This just exacerbates the talent gulf.

Until the AFL deal with this anomaly- welcome to the EPL version of the AFL.

Gil McLachlan has said he wants to make it easier for bottom teams to rise - I've yet to see any evidence he is doing something to achieve this.
Thats because Gil is full of shit .
 
I honestly believe the AFL is making it incredibly difficult for lowly teams to rise.

The bottom teams have only a marginal "draft" advantage over the top teams.

Yet the top teams can continually raid the bottom teams and get gun players for free.

This just exacerbates the talent gulf.

Until the AFL deal with this anomaly- welcome to the EPL version of the AFL.

Gil McLachlan has said he wants to make it easier for bottom teams to rise - I've yet to see any evidence he is doing something to achieve this.
I feel alot of it comes down to how much power the player has with where they want to play.
The idea of nominating a single club to be traded to is silly IMO, as you have signed a contract.
The problem with this is that making the AFL is not a golden ticket like it is with international sports, for example I would be happy to live in Adelaide on a few mil plus because I could afford to live with any lifestyle I wanted and still not worry about my future.
As such the money doesn't have much pull when compared with success because you'd still be making something comparable as opposed to multi millions difference.
So RFA do the opposite of what it is brought in because it wasn't thought out correctly, there are tweaks that could make it viable though IMO.
They're not intentionally screwing us and Bris ect, just accidently screwing us if that makes it better.
 

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To qualify for a priority pick you need to have finished down the bottom of the ladder for several years. If you’ve finished down the bottom of the ladder for several years you’ll have had several top end draft picks.

If you don’t like priority picks at all just say that, don’t make redundant arguments

Oh so your one of those supporters who thinks draft picks = success. Probably want us to keep losing to get that no.1 draft pick and then maybe a PP and then we will be successful.......
 
Oh so your one of those supporters who thinks draft picks = success. Probably want us to keep losing to get that no.1 draft pick and then maybe a PP and then we will be successful.......
That’s not what I said in the slightest. Nowhere did I say that I think draft picks = success, or even that I want Carlton to apply for a priority pick.

Seems like you’re so overly eager to argue a point that you’re not even reading posts, just ranting.
 
Oh so your one of those supporters who thinks draft picks = success. Probably want us to keep losing to get that no.1 draft pick and then maybe a PP and then we will be successful.......
It is a catch 22. I am reading an element of disdain in your post, which is not called for.
We all want success, and the sooner the better.

The reality is that we have struggled to attract top end free agents to the club, this is why an imaginative deal for
Shiel is on the cards this year. Providing we select well, the draft is the key to sustained success. While we may have
to wait for the kids to mature, we need heaps of top end talent to assure our rise is to the top, not just mid table.

Surely no one here wants our rebuild to get us to the bottom of the eight and no further.
 
It is a catch 22. I am reading an element of disdain in your post, which is not called for.
We all want success, and the sooner the better.

The reality is that we have struggled to attract top end free agents to the club, this is why an imaginative deal for
Shiel is on the cards this year. Providing we select well, the draft is the key to sustained success. While we may have
to wait for the kids to mature, we need heaps of top end talent to assure our rise is to the top, not just mid table.

Surely no one here wants our rebuild to get us to the bottom of the eight and no further.

We have had a plethora of early picks, so the draft isn't our issue. Player development is the issue and has been for 10+ years. Reason no.1 why we don't deserve a PP. We have had our chances with the draft/early picks and failed because of our coaching staff/football club setup. Fix our own backyard and don't rely on handouts.
 
Am I right in saying that priority picks given by the AFL can't be traded? Or am I making that up?

In either case, a draft pick doesn't help much in the short term. Draft picks are about what is produced about 3-4 years down the track in about 90% of cases. We've had lots of draft picks. An extra one at the pointy end of this draft won't "fix" anything. Sure, it adds another talented 18 year old to our roster, but that's more than likely having an effect on our performance in 2022, not 2019.

We have a large number of youth in our club, and a lot who look like they will be valuable players. Mature, seasoned players is what we need now to continue accelerating our rebuild. It seems very clear to me that's the case, so hand-wringing about a priority pick in this draft is a waste of energy.
 
Literally only 2 players who I would like on our list who left/delisted.. with view to the 2020 beyond.
Gowers
Holman

Right now, both would be getting regular games.
But note, both these players would end up being in mix for 20th to 30th best players on our list in 3 years





What about Mitch Robinson - not a great kick but could be absorbing some heat now for Cripps and we gave him up for a bag of chips !!

Could get him back I reckon. He'd be better than Nick Graham or Cam O'Shea.
 
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