List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

[Macca43]

It’s funny when we talk about the value of possible recruits to think Philp cost us pick 11 this year. We nearly demand a proven A grader around here for that pick

Not sure how you arrive at that valuation for Philp, pick 11, 62 & 55 got us Philp and Kemp.

 

[blue healer]

Every single list manager in the history of sport has had big misses, SOS is no different.

Name who you believe the best in the business to be, and I guarantee we can find errors that list manager has made. Errors - not just one, but many.

Suggesting one missed pick tarnishes his reputation is a massive stretch.

Also find it funny we bemoan non-recruiting staff for reportedly involving themselves in our own recruiting, yet here you are suggesting it's the domain of the head coach to intervene.

There is no debate about the bolded, no one gets it right all the time. I"d bet that Sheedy himself never got it right all the time.

I dislike the man, he's the sole reason that my second favorite team is the one that plays Essendon every week.

But I don't think the hit rate of SOS or any list manager is the point here. I think consultation, or lack of, between all parties is the real point.

I thought the telling point of the article was when Sheedy said " It's the first time I've never been allowed to have an opinion in the draft as head coach"

This man is (even though I hate to admit it) a coaching great with four premierships and he was apparently supported by another who has coached a premiership side.You dismiss footy brains like that at your own peril.

A number of posters on here have said that SOS was moved on because he didn't always listen to those around him and, while there's little point in revisiting the past, it may give us some insight into our actions last year.

But then again......Liddle.

 

[Blue Pulse]

You literally said nothing about Kennedy bar delist?

Kennedy when given opportunity has shown potential at AFL level both as a forward and a midfielder. But unfortunately he can't get a game regardless of how poorly other favourites perform.

Moore in two games and at Richmond prior showed nothing at AFL level.

Further if Kennedy was bad as you seem to believe he could be delisted and rookied. It wouldn't work because a club that wasn't brain dead would snap him up.

Absolutely no chance he is delisted, traded possibly. But I doubt even that.

What irks me about Kennedy, is that every good game this season has been in the wet on a slow deck, on a dry deck he fails to impact, coincidence or just too slow?

 

[DangerousD]

Would be better to pay in picks this year, money in past years. We don't need the kids now, we need already developed jets.
Can only overpay with 1 or 2 players anyway. Cripps, Charlie, Martin, Weiters, McKay, Mcg and Murphy all on very good money you'd think.

Developed Jets, as in Williams or Viney for free.
you always need new kids coming through the door, especially us, who have invested heavily in the draft and have big question marks over the quality of many of our kids.

 

[blue healer]

It’s funny when we talk about the value of possible recruits to think Philp cost us pick 11 this year. We nearly demand a proven A grader around here for that pick

You may have to explain this because I must have missed something but why has Philp cost us pick 11 this year?

 

[blue healer]

What irks me about Kennedy, is that every good game this season has been in the wet on a slow deck, on a dry deck he fails to impact, coincidence or just too slow?

he only played three didn't he?...... pretty small sample .

And doesn't Samo grow a leg in the wet?

 

[bigm386]

What irks me about Kennedy, is that every good game this season has been in the wet on a slow deck, on a dry deck he fails to impact, coincidence or just too slow?

He did have some good games up forward last year.

I think Kennedy is a bad fit in our 2020 midfield mix as its very slow and he isn't given priority as an inside clearance mid.

With Curnow, Cripps, Setterfield and Murphy being our top 4 attending centre clearances Kennedy just doesn't fit at the moment.

EDIT: But with Curnow and Cripps Murphy potentially in final seasons in 2021 I think long term we need Kennedy.

To me the midfield mix going forward should be Cripps/Setterfield, with one of Curnow/Kennedy/JSOS/Kemp (assuming he plays midfield and not Forward Pocket as is the Carlton Way) and 2 of Walsh, SPS, Gibbons, Cunners, Philp etc.

I hated our 2020 midfield mix as it was treacle slow, Teague kept bringing up how we struggled to break out of the clearance but changed nothing. Didn't help our wings for most of 2020 also lacked pace

 

[Stamos]

Ideal scenario for me -
b. 2020 first rounder for an inside/outside mid who can impact forward.

Given the number of mids we've recruited with 1st round picks in the last few years, wouldn't a forward be more ideal, especially if we do get Williams in?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

You may have to explain this because I must have missed something but why has Philp cost us pick 11 this year?

GC offered us pick 11 (PP) for the pick we took Philp with at the draft.

 

[Macca43]

Given the number of mids we've recruited with 1st round picks in the last few years, wouldn't a forward be more ideal, especially if we do get Williams in?

I ouwld love to think that Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Philp & Kemp emerge as quality players next year, but I would prefer to lock in a top shelf mid and make it a certainty.

 

[Angel Duster]

Anyway, onto the here and now, and assuming list sizes remain the same:

Retired: Simpson, Kreuzer
Potential retirements: Betts
Delist: Kennedy, O'Dwyer, Lang, Polson, Goddard (r), Cottrell (r)
Possible delist: Newman, Macreadie, Moore (r), F.Phillips (r)

Trade bait: Marchbank, JSOS, O'Brien, Casboult, Cuningham, Plowman, Fisher, SPS

Ideal FA/trade acquisitions: Williams, Crouch (subject to medical)

Ideal draft candidate: Will Phillips

Potential best 22, assuming Betts retires:

FB: Plowman/Marchbank Jones Williamson
HB: Docherty Weitering Williams
C: Walsh E.Curnow O'Brien
HF: Martin C.Curnow Fisher
FF: Kemp McKay Cuningham

R: TDK Cripps Crouch

Int: Setterfield, Murphy, W.Phillips, SPS

EMG: Dow, Gibbons/Newnes, Casboult, JSOS/McGovern

Next 22:

FB: Plowman/Marchbank BSOS Newman
HB: ??? Macreadie ???
C: Newnes Philp Ramsay
HF: Honey McGovern Gibbons
FF: JSOS Casboult Owies

R: Pittonet Moore Dow

Int: Stocker, F.Phillips, ???, ???

This reveals our clearest needs at the draft beyond a premium mid: smaller defenders, forwards and mids. Players who can zip around the field and execute foot skills consistently. Of that shortlist, small forwards would be the least pressing, but if the draft order falls our way we should definitely snap up any talent.

The other obvious gap is that we probably need to bring in an athletic KPD to develop over time, in case Macreadie or BSOS never develop to replace Jones. KPF stocks also look a bit thin, but there's some flexibility due to TDK, Cripps and Kemp, alongside JSOS, Moore and McGovern, though Moore needs a lot of work.

Some might feel that Moore could solve the KPD issue, but I would honestly prefer to train him in the midfield group and see what he can produce. Get him lean and see what he can do throwing his weight around after training some stoppage reads all summer.

WOW...I am glad you are not constructing my share portfolio !!!!

 

[Macca43]

GC offered us pick 11 (PP) for the pick we took Philp with at the draft.

Assuming this is true, given roughly a quarter of the top 25 in the draft are academy players and given most of the draftees haven't played for 12 months I think I am happier with Philp than to take a punt on what will likely end up being a pick around 15.

 

[CJMB]

It’s funny when we talk about the value of possible recruits to think Philp cost us pick 11 this year. We nearly demand a proven A grader around here for that pick

What?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Assuming this is true, given roughly a quarter of the top 25 in the draft are academy players and given most of the draftees haven't played for 12 months I think I am happier with Philp than to take a punt on what will likely end up being a pick around 15.

Yeh I’m no criticising the move I’m just more pointing out people are probably overvaluing draft picks abit this year.
We may get lucky with 7 being in abit of a sweet spot though

 

[bigblueboy]

He did have some good games up forward last year.

I think Kennedy is a bad fit in our 2020 midfield mix as its very slow and he isn't given priority as an inside clearance mid.

With Curnow, Cripps, Setterfield and Murphy being our top 4 attending centre clearances Kennedy just doesn't fit at the moment.

But with Curnow and Cripps potentially in final seasons in 2021 I think long term we need Kennedy.

To me the midfield mix going forward should be Cripps/Setterfield, with one of Curnow/Kennedy/JSOS/Kemp (assuming he plays midfield and not Forward Pocket as is the Carlton Way) and 2 of Walsh, SPS, Gibbons, Cunners, Philp etc.

I hated our 2020 midfield mix as it was treacle slow, Teague kept bringing up how we struggled to break out of the clearance but changed nothing. Didn't help our wings for most of 2020 also lacked pace

Dictionary definition of pessimism right here.

 

[Macca43]

Yeh I’m no criticising the move I’m just more pointing out people are probably overvaluing draft picks abit this year.
We may get lucky with 7 being in abit of a sweet spot though

Could eb a few teams willing to trade pick to get ahead of bids.

 

[FRUMPY]

I ouwld love to think that Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Philp & Kemp emerge as quality players next year, but I would prefer to lock in a top shelf mid and make it a certainty.

It also makes sense a top shelf mid would lift the production of those listed as we would become a better side.

 

[Stamos]

I ouwld love to think that Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Philp & Kemp emerge as quality players next year, but I would prefer to lock in a top shelf mid and make it a certainty.

I thought that was referring to if we take our first pick to the draft.

 

[blue healer]

GC offered us pick 11 (PP) for the pick we took Philp with at the draft.

i didn't know that....but why would they do it?

 

[HARKER]

Given the number of mids we've recruited with 1st round picks in the last few years, wouldn't a forward be more ideal, especially if we do get Williams in?

On face value yes, but we know we won't see Papley and I wouldn't want a small forward just for the sake of getting one.
Papley was much more than just someone that hovers around the edges for a cheap kick.

We still need speed, spread & accumulation and if a Gaff/Kelly type was somewhere out there, we should still be looking.
We're not going to get that from O'Brien and neither Dow nor SPS fit that mould, whilst it's all too early to put our eggs in the Kemp/Philp basket.

What I don't want from Austin and co is to throw out too many darts.
I just want 2 or 3 of the right players. Not asking for much

 

[Stamos]

On face value yes, but we know we won't see Papley and I wouldn't want a small forward just for the sake of getting one.
Papley was much more than just someone that hovers around the edges for a cheap kick.

We still need speed, spread & accumulation and if a Gaff/Kelly type was somewhere out there, we should still be looking.
We're not going to get that from O'Brien and neither Dow nor SPS fit that mould, whilst it's all too early to put our eggs in the Kemp/Philp basket.

What I don't want from Austin and co is to throw out too many darts.
I just want 2 or 3 of the right players. Not asking for much

I misread and thought that was if we took that pick to the draft, rather than trading it

 

[HARKER]

I misread and thought that was if we took that pick to the draft, rather than trading it

What do you think we need Stamos ?

Many of us get a little excited for just about every name that gets raised.
I don't and I don't want to see us taking on surplus players just to be seen to be doing 'stuff' and more to that point; to suggest that we don't trust what we have.

That would make for a terrible outcome for us and for what has been put in place already.
Our best course to becoming a powerhouse is to develop well and if we can't do that.......throw the baby out with the bathwater and start again.

 

[Blue__Balls]

i didn't know that....but why would they do it?

I think it was when they were pulling out all the stops to try and get Jeremy Sharp.

They ended up sending the 2020 mid first round compo pick, plus pick 64, to Geelong for Pick 27.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

i didn't know that....but why would they do it?

They wanted Sharp. It was on the table for anyone up until Geelong took it at I think 27.
So in other words clubs were valuing 26 and under last year higher then ~11 this year.

 

[F_therest]

What irks me about Kennedy, is that every good game this season has been in the wet on a slow deck, on a dry deck he fails to impact, coincidence or just too slow?

Happened too often for it to be a coincidence. When the game is slow, scrappy and a contest he shines...along with Cripps & Setterfield. Which is part of the reason we've done well as a team in wet games this year.

When it's dry, quick and a high-running game Kennedy gets exposed. As does our team with Cripps/Setterfield as well as a midfield unit. Hawks/WC/Collingwood/Saints all torched us through the middle of the ground.