List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Marcel Proust]

As upsetting that it is to lose Rance, it puts us back in the game in terms of free agents. That being said there isn’t a lot that excite me.
Two I’d expect us to chase are Brad Crouch and Aidan Corr.
Also surely GWS can’t keep all their young midfielders that will want more opportunity. I’d be sniffing around Caldwell and O’halloran

trade might be better option

 

[captain cotch 9]

A poster with info said we where into Harris Andrews last year to get him in a few years..this may fast track things...

 

[_RT_]

This is where people go wrong they look at the average age of entire lists yet the average age of most sides best 22 is significantly higher f reor obvious reasons. Plus the average age can be severly corrupted just by haveing an extra 2 or 3 30 yr olds on your list
THe hawks won the flag in 2008 with an average age 24yrs 218d with 2362 games behind those players.

Hmm best 22 compared to overall list is usually a chasm.You can have 20 24 juniors on your list but if few of them actually develop your in a world of pain long term because you dont actually have players up to standard despite them being young.

Collingwood won a flag in 2010 with a team aged 24yrs and 57days and have not won a flag since.

FWIW the average age of our premiership 21 (minus Ellis) heading into 2020 is 26.6, which is about par for the course based on a quick look back at recent premiership sides and having 13 blokes 27 or older next year.

The average age of our list being the same as the Suns suggests that we're in a good spot for future, provided our development of young talent continues as it has over recent years. This is why I have been saying that it's important that we don't deviate from forcing the kids to earn selection in the 22 and not just hand them games like we did in years past because they were young and talented. IMO by doing that we will have ready made players coming into the side when they earn their shot.

 

[THE_GUN]

FWIW the average age of our premiership 21 (minus Ellis) heading into 2020 is 26.6, which is about par for the course based on a quick look back at recent premiership sides and having 13 blokes 27 or older next year.

The average age of our list being the same as the Suns suggests that we're in a good spot for future, provided our development of young talent continues as it has over recent years. This is why I have been saying that it's important that we don't deviate from forcing the kids to earn selection in the 22 and not just hand them games like we did in years past because they were young and talented. IMO by doing that we will have ready made players coming into the side when they earn their shot.

Out Ellis
In Pickett

Not much would have changed

 

[Marcel Proust]

Approximately 23.4, which puts us on par with the Suns average age.

thanks

whats the source?

if its true that pretty impressive

 

[_RT_]

Out Ellis
In Pickett

Not much would have changed

Pickett is part of the premiership 21.

 

[mopsy]

one of the youngest premiership teams going into the following season with Rance retiring?

average age under 24?

i expect hawks 2008-9 was pretty young but the website doesnt seem to be working

edit hawks were crazy young in '09

22.5

I look at either side of 2009.
I think the hawks were very young late in the season in 09. The real reason was They couldnt make finals and late in the yr Clarkson played kids.
An example was their rnd 22 side, Clarkson played 10 juniors that is blokes aged 21 or under and he had a few 22 yr olds as well.
The average age of that rnd 22 team was 22yrs and 300days. The thing that really hit you though was the paltry amount of games played in that team just 1298 games.It was never the norm and was never going to be the norm.

The difference to their premiership team in 08 just 12 months before was 24yrs/218 days with 2362 games experience.

In 2010 12 months the other side of the end of 09 and their eliminataion final side had just 3 juniors with an average age of 25yrs/106 days with 2383 games behind them.

What im saying is while a team like the wb who were a clear exception and showed an Inexperienced team opposed to a young team, could win a flag.I say that because the wb average age in 16 was 24yrs 144 days. 24 plus yrs seems to be the tipping point they only had 1807 games played which is very much an anomoly. Not surprising they have had to go backwards and get games into the younger blokes and it was not made easy with mature and veteran players retiring.

seems to me looking at the age experience of all g/f sides over the last 13 yrs. I went back to the start of the Geelong dynasty, to get to a g/f your best 22 needs to get close to 24yrs of age on average and somewhere between 2300 and 2400 games played .

Imo the overall age of a clubs list is insignificant when determining success.Your top 28 30 players does. What it also indicates is how many juniors or vets you may have on your list.It doesnt tell you if those juniors are any good or the vets are past it.
One thing for sure very few juniors are in clubs starting 22s hence the much higher age of best 22,s and the much lower ages of entire lists.

 

[Marcel Proust]

I look at either side of 2009.
I think the hawks were very young late in the season in 09. The real reason was They couldnt make finals and late in the yr Clarkson played kids.
An example was their rnd 22 side, Clarkson played 10 juniors that is blokes aged 21 or under and he had a few 22 yr olds as well.
The average age of that rnd 22 team was 22yrs and 300days. The thing that really hit you though was the paltry amount of games played in that team just 1298 games.It was never the norm and was never going to be the norm.

The difference to their premiership team in 08 just 12 months before was 24yrs/218 days with 2362 games experience.

In 2010 12 months the other side of the end of 09 and their eliminataion final side had just 3 juniors with an average age of 25yrs/106 days with 2383 games behind them.

What im saying is while a team like the wb who were a clear exception and showed an Inexperienced team opposed to a young team, could win a flag.I say that because the wb average age in 16 was 24yrs 144 days. 24 plus yrs seems to be the tipping point they only had 1807 games played which is very much an anomoly. Not surprising they have had to go backwards and get games into the younger blokes and it was not made easy with mature and veteran players retiring.

seems to me looking at the age experience of all g/f sides over the last 13 yrs. I went back to the start of the Geelong dynasty, to get to a g/f your best 22 needs to get close to 24yrs of age on average and somewhere between 2300 and 2400 games played .

Imo the overall age of a clubs list is insignificant when determining success.Your top 28 30 players does. What it also indicates is how many juniors or vets you may have on your list.It doesnt tell you if those juniors are any good or the vets are past it.
One thing for sure very few juniors are in clubs starting 22s hence the much higher age of best 22,s and the much lower ages of entire lists.

half of richmond 17 premiership side was 24 or under

 

[mopsy]

FWIW the average age of our premiership 21 (minus Ellis) heading into 2020 is 26.6, which is about par for the course based on a quick look back at recent premiership sides and having 13 blokes 27 or older next year.

The average age of our list being the same as the Suns suggests that we're in a good spot for future, provided our development of young talent continues as it has over recent years. This is why I have been saying that it's important that we don't deviate from forcing the kids to earn selection in the 22 and not just hand them games like we did in years past because they were young and talented. IMO by doing that we will have ready made players coming into the side when they earn their shot.

its neither here nor there the average age of the flag team was 26yr 176d it averaged 125.6 games
The average age of our entire list at the start of the season according to the AFL is 24.01 with an average games played of 68.82 games.
It has absolutely no resemblance to what we will put on the field and that goes for most sides.We have 20 players with 20 or less games and 25 with 50 or less games. Id wager that is around about the average.
It leaves just 19 players with more than 50 games and its a good reason why we need to play as many kids as possible after all those kids have shown plenty winning a vfl flag and r/u the yr before.

okay age by itself. Again according to the afl website
We have eighteen JUNIOR players aged 18 - 21 the Afl average for each list is basically 17 or 16.94. so we have one more junior than the average it means nothing. It will only mean something if enough of those juniors turn into real good players and we all know a good percentage wont.
FWIW the highest number is 22 freo and the lowest 14 wce, nm, and wb.

According to the afl website we have 13 players aged 22 - 26 thats 4 below the average combine that with so many with less than 20 games its possibly another reason why maybe its a good idea to keep playing as many kids as possible

We have 9 players aged 27 - 29 the average is 7 so slightly above average.
We have 4 30 plus players the AFL average is 4.

Our list set up is pretty normal taking age all by itself is fraught with danger its only when its combined with experience, quality list structure that any sense can be made of it.
Age by itself can mean both good lots of youth or bad number of kids making it and a lack of experience in the list.

For me it more about getting ENOUGH good players to 80 100 games and into the 24 - 28 age bracket having 20 kids on your list means nothing.

 

[_RT_]

its neither here nor there the average age of the flag team was 26yr 176d it averaged 125.6 games
The average age of our entire list at the start of the season according to the AFL is 24.01 with an average games played of 68.82 games.
It has absolutely no resemblance to what we will put on the field and that goes for most sides.We have 20 players with 20 or less games and 25 with 50 or less games. Id wager that is around about the average.
It leaves just 19 players with more than 50 games and its a good reason why we need to play as many kids as possible after all those kids have shown plenty winning a vfl flag and r/u the yr before.

okay age by itself. Again according to the afl website
We have eighteen JUNIOR players aged 18 - 21 the Afl average for each list is basically 17 or 16.94. so we have one more junior than the average it means nothing. It will only mean something if enough of those juniors turn into real good players and we all know a good percentage wont.
FWIW the highest number is 22 freo and the lowest 14 wce, nm, and wb.

According to the afl website we have 13 players aged 22 - 26 thats 4 below the average combine that with so many with less than 20 games its possibly another reason why maybe its a good idea to keep playing as many kids as possible

We have 9 players aged 27 - 29 the average is 7 so slightly above average.
We have 4 30 plus players the AFL average is 4.

Our list set up is pretty normal taking age all by itself is fraught with danger its only when its combined with experience, quality list structure that any sense can be made of it.
Age by itself can mean both good lots of youth or bad number of kids making it and a lack of experience in the list.

For me it more about getting ENOUGH good players to 80 100 games and into the 24 - 28 age bracket having 20 kids on your list means nothing.

What we've done though while being in premiership contention is keep our picks in the draft, albeit the earliest has been end of first round, which has enabled us to add some highly rated kids to the list and makes our under 24 group one of the most promising going around because there is a good mix of proven players and developing kids.

Proven:
Short 24 & 71
Castagna 23 & 76
Rioli 22 & 77
Graham 21 & 39
Higgins 20 & 33

Developing:
Stack 19 & 17
Ross 19 & 7
Balta 20 & 13
Soldo 23 & 22
Baker 21 & 22
Chol 22 & 10
Garthwaite 21 & 9
Naish 20 & 2
CCJ 20 & 1
Markov 23 & 17

Unknown:
Miller 20
RCD 19
English 19
Turner 18
Cumberland 18
Martyn 18
Nyoun 18
Dow 18
Ralphsmith 18

As I said what I want to see is players from these groups being forced to earn their spot in the 22 by playing well enough to force the older more experienced guys out of the side, don't just hand them a spot because they are young.

 

[THE_GUN]

Personally i think our list is set up perfectly and the only ' missing piece's i see is 2 x KPD ' but if Biggy/Miller come good (big ask) then fine but i would be looking to add 1 more to the list min.

 

[JR82]

We will be going through a period of evolution in the next 1-2 years
Rance - Gone
Houli - Likely gone end of 2020
Astbury / Grimes - will be taking unders after their current deals and will be looking to retire 2-3 years
Edwards - I see him playing another 3 years so will probably get slight under what he currently gets
Riewoldt - See Edwards
Prestia - I think he will also take a cut


We will have some funds available in 2 years time to go shopping again

IMO a bit of a balancing act here, thinking long term. we can't have them all stay 2-3 yrs as that'd take some to 32-33 yrs so we can't plan to start phasing them out then as that'd take them to 35/36 & none will probably be playing then anyway. thinking long term we'd need 1-2 to go each yr from next yr as if they stay 3 yrs for example they'd all pretty much leave at once & that'd be too big a gap to fill within 1-2 yrs, the future of our list depends on the development of the kids. Where it becomes a balancing act is because we are going for flags now while also planning to remain a contender for many yrs to come as well.

 

[sregit]

What we've done though while being in premiership contention is keep our picks in the draft, albeit the earliest has been end of first round, which has enabled us to add some highly rated kids to the list and makes our under 24 group one of the most promising going around because there is a good mix of proven players and developing kids.

Proven:
Short 24 & 71
Castagna 23 & 76
Rioli 22 & 77
Graham 21 & 39
Higgins 20 & 33

Developing:
Stack 19 & 17
Ross 19 & 7
Balta 20 & 13
Soldo 23 & 22
Baker 21 & 22
Chol 22 & 10
Garthwaite 21 & 9
Naish 20 & 2
CCJ 20 & 1
Markov 23 & 17

Unknown:
Miller 20
RCD 19
English 19
Turner 18
Cumberland 18
Martyn 18
Nyoun 18
Dow 18
Ralphsmith 18

As I said what I want to see is players from these groups being forced to earn their spot in the 22 by playing well enough to force the older more experienced guys out of the side, don't just hand them a spot because they are young.

We may need to gift some games to our youth regardless of their form as our key defenders may be injured and we will need to blood / fast track the youth to replace them. If no young KPD has excelled in the 2s we still may have to select one to play regardless.

 

[_RT_]

We may need to gift some games to our youth regardless of their form as our key defenders may be injured and we will need to blood / fast track the youth to replace them. If no young KPD has excelled in the 2s we still may have to select one to play regardless.

Of course injury may mean some get selected when form may not warrant it, but given the way the VFL side has performed in recent years they'd still be in reasonable form.

Ideally though it's good form and not injury related that sees a changing of the guard.

 

[mopsy]

What we've done though while being in premiership contention is keep our picks in the draft, albeit the earliest has been end of first round, which has enabled us to add some highly rated kids to the list and makes our under 24 group one of the most promising going around because there is a good mix of proven players and developing kids.

Proven:
Short 24 & 71
Castagna 23 & 76
Rioli 22 & 77
Graham 21 & 39
Higgins 20 & 33

Developing:
Stack 19 & 17
Ross 19 & 7
Balta 20 & 13
Soldo 23 & 22
Baker 21 & 22
Chol 22 & 10
Garthwaite 21 & 9
Naish 20 & 2
CCJ 20 & 1
Markov 23 & 17

Unknown:
Miller 20
RCD 19
English 19
Turner 18
Cumberland 18
Martyn 18
Nyoun 18
Dow 18
Ralphsmith 18

As I said what I want to see is players from these groups being forced to earn their spot in the 22 by playing well enough to force the older more experienced guys out of the side, don't just hand them a spot because they are young.

i think those who got games this yr did earn a spot some of them only missed out on the g/f thru injury.You cant be serious saying they dont deserve to be in the mix come round one with a pile of players on the same sort of level. they all imo project fwd as better players than those they replace.They did something well enough they won a vfl premiership playing to our style. A player like Balta earnt 13 games a majority of games which technically makes him a regular this yr. of course being so young he had his ups and downs.But to say he hasnt earnt a spot that laughable.
There are also some who probably should have got games but didnt. its not about one group earning a game but ideally everyone.But some will be played regardless.

Imo only 14 or so are walk up starts the rest of the spots in the team are up for grabs.
Imo there are 28 players who could play rnd one. those 28 have shown they are up to it and have earnt games on their own merit.

With those 28 it should never be just about keeping a g/f team together but all about who is going to be a better player and fit for us going fwd.
Who has the better preseason actually rewarding the hard work.

As stated adnauseum its also not just about best 22 but team structure, team balance, player type needed, and most definately development and list holes.
Just my opinion but with Rance gone it is really important a big strong kpp like Balta who played a majority of games is continued to be developed in the ones. Thats an actual need. Its not all black and white sometimes circumstances determine what path is taken.

For what its worth i think the following team a better team than the g/f team.And every player in it has already earnt the right to be considered for rnd 1

Grimes - Astbury - Vlastuin
Houli - Balta - Broad

Pickett - Prestia - Lambert
Nankervis - Ross - Cotchin

Bolton - Riewoldt - Edwards
Martin - Lynch - Castagna

Graham - Caddy - Stack - Last spot depends on weather they go with two ruckmen soldo or look for a ruck/fwd CCJ, Chol or just want another mid or more run or they may even give a kid a game who has burnt it up preseason hopefully a kid like RCD tears it up.

That team is tall and adaptable we wont get hurt if a tall goes down in a game. Its quick, it has heaps of run it, has lots of big bodies, and it has enough skill.It is also a well balanced side in age and experience but at the same time it promotes development and potential.

The only changes are in
Balta, Ross, Graham and Stack they have all done enough earnt the right to be in the mix.
the outs
Short, Baker, Ellis, and Rioli. One has actually gone and the other three all have issues. I know Rioli is a contentious one.

Id take Ross Graham and Stack over Short Baker and Rioli any day atm. And Balta is something that is needed.

Lastly the flip side to the so called making them earn it argument is lets not gift games to lesser players and overlook needs.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

A poster with info said we where into Harris Andrews last year to get him in a few years..this may fast track things...

Not sure if there’s any substance to this Cotch, but it’d be a dream scenario to get Andrews to Tigerland. He’s probably the only back-6 player in the game at present to rival McGovern and Grimes ... arguably better than both.

Make it happen Tiges.

 

[THE_GUN]

Not sure if there’s any substance to this Cotch, but it’d be a dream scenario to get Andrews to Tigerland. He’s probably the only back-6 player in the game at present to rival McGovern and Grimes ... arguably better than both.

Make it happen Tiges.

Andrews is just a dream and a dream that wont ever happen , The kid is a Lions academy plyer thats come good and a queenslander that is highly regarded
Like Rance would have no intentions of playing for another club and will be a 1 club player.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Andrews is just a dream and a dream that wont ever happen , The kid is a Lions academy plyer thats come good and a queenslander that is highly regarded
Like Rance would have no intentions of playing for another club and will be a Jehovah whiteness when he retires.

Efa

 

[THE_GUN]

Efa

We need more muslims at Punt Road , They get better as they get older

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

We need more muslims at Punt Road , They get better as they get older

Ain't that the truth.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

We need more muslims at Punt Road , They get better as they get older

Amen brother!

 

[_RT_]

i think those who got games this yr did earn a spot some of them only missed out on the g/f thru injury.You cant be serious saying they dont deserve to be in the mix come round one with a pile of players on the same sort of level. they all imo project fwd as better players than those they replace.They did something well enough they won a vfl premiership playing to our style. A player like Balta earnt 13 games a majority of games which technically makes him a regular this yr. of course being so young he had his ups and downs.But to say he hasnt earnt a spot that laughable.
There are also some who probably should have got games but didnt. its not about one group earning a game but ideally everyone.But some will be played regardless.

Imo only 14 or so are walk up starts the rest of the spots in the team are up for grabs.
Imo there are 28 players who could play rnd one. those 28 have shown they are up to it and have earnt games on their own merit.

With those 28 it should never be just about keeping a g/f team together but all about who is going to be a better player and fit for us going fwd.
Who has the better preseason actually rewarding the hard work.

As stated adnauseum its also not just about best 22 but team structure, team balance, player type needed, and most definately development and list holes.
Just my opinion but with Rance gone it is really important a big strong kpp like Balta who played a majority of games is continued to be developed in the ones. Thats an actual need. Its not all black and white sometimes circumstances determine what path is taken.

For what its worth i think the following team a better team than the g/f team.And every player in it has already earnt the right to be considered for rnd 1

Grimes - Astbury - Vlastuin
Houli - Balta - Broad

Pickett - Prestia - Lambert
Nankervis - Ross - Cotchin

Bolton - Riewoldt - Edwards
Martin - Lynch - Castagna

Graham - Caddy - Stack - Last spot depends on weather they go with two ruckmen soldo or look for a ruck/fwd CCJ, Chol or just want another mid or more run or they may even give a kid a game who has burnt it up preseason hopefully a kid like RCD tears it up.

That team is tall and adaptable we wont get hurt if a tall goes down in a game. Its quick, it has heaps of run it, has lots of big bodies, and it has enough skill.It is also a well balanced side in age and experience but at the same time it promotes development and potential.

The only changes are in
Balta, Ross, Graham and Stack they have all done enough earnt the right to be in the mix.
the outs
Short, Baker, Ellis, and Rioli. One has actually gone and the other three all have issues. I know Rioli is a contentious one.

Id take Ross Graham and Stack over Short Baker and Rioli any day atm. And Balta is something that is needed.

Lastly the flip side to the so called making them earn it argument is lets not gift games to lesser players and overlook needs.

I never suggested that any of them haven't earned their spots when they have been picked. What I've said is that if we're going to make changes not to pick players simply because they are young, you pick them because they are in better form than those that are in the side, unless of course it is injury that forces the change.

FWIW I think the round 1 side will be
B: Grimes Astbury Broad
HB: Houli Vlastuin Short
C: Pickett Cotchin Caddy
HF: Castagna Riewoldt Stack
F: Rioli Lynch Bolton
R: Soldo Martin Prestia
INT: Edwards Lambert Graham Nankervis

OUT: Ellis Baker
IN: Graham Stack

In that side everyone has earned their spot and nobody is being gifted a game ahead of someone more deserving. As the year progresses and we want to bring in the likes of Balta Ross Naish RCD CCJ Baker Higgins then their form needs to be better than who they are going to replace, you don't make changes for the sake of making change.

 

[THE_GUN]

Ain't that the truth.

Amen brother!

As-salamu alaykum

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

As-salamu alaykum

Bless you...

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Andrews is just a dream and a dream that wont ever happen , The kid is a Lions academy plyer thats come good and a queenslander that is highly regarded
Like Rance would have no intentions of playing for another club and will be a 1 club player.

Tom Lynch was a dream.

And Rance did consider playing for another club. The Lions, in fact, when Lepper went up there as senior coach. If he hadn’t been sacked it might’ve actually happened.

Never say never.