2021 Non-Crows AFL Discussion Part 1: we can have lots of fun!

[Geoffa32]

bad argument, I don't have any issue with doing what it takes to get you through the day, if you need to change how you identify yourself so be it. Until it effects somebody else. Hanna wearing a dress effects nobody but Hanna, Hanna laying a tackle to an average girl is unfair to the girl being tackled. There is a reason there is women only sporting competition, men and women are genetically different regardless of how they identify. It's not a job it is a contact sport, and at time a brutal sport, and I can't think of any jobs now days that women can't do so employment a mute argument.

Is she a woman in the eyes of the law?

Your argument is one against her playing against woman completely. She plays at the lower level.

Wouldn't it be safer on her opponents in the AFLW than Ammos?

Does she dominate those lower leagues? I am not sure.

I bet if she went to bump Erin Phillips, she would come off second best. Much like Bighlands against Pickett.




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[hey shorty]

Is she a woman in the eyes of the law?

Your argument is one against her playing against woman completely. She plays at the lower level.

Wouldn't it be safer on her opponents in the AFLW than Ammos?

Does she dominate those lower leagues? I am not sure.

I bet if she went to bump Erin Phillips, she would come off second best. Much like Bighlands against Pickett.




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She'd knock Erin into next week.

Hannah isn't just a woman who used to be a man, she's a big athletic woman who still lifts similar weights that she did before.

 

[Geoffa32]

She'd knock Erin into next week.

Hannah isn't just a woman who used to be a man, she's a big athletic woman who still lifts similar weights that she did before.

With lower testosterone levels than she was as a man.

Has she done any real damage in the three odd seasons she has played?


I reckon the AFL should let her play, (A) because I don't think they can justify rightly she can't (but can play in lower leagues) and (B) I don't think she will be that great anyway. Let her play and see how she goes.


BTW Erin is one solid unit.

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[Geoffa32]

The argument of her physical strength being a barrier to AFLW entry is not valid. She already plays in the lower leagues.

Theoretically (and probably has) she could line up against a 16 year old school girl.

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[Scorpus]

With lower testosterone levels than she was as a man.

Has she done any real damage in the three odd seasons she has played?


I reckon the AFL should let her play, (A) because I don't think they can justify rightly she can't (but can play in lower leagues) and (B) I don't think she will be that great anyway. Let her play and see how she goes.


BTW Erin is one solid unit.

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I'd leave it up to the Players Association.

Run a private, anonymous poll on whether it should be allowed or not. If the majority of players want it, then that should be it.

The women's league is effectively a handicap league and they should be able to set the rules of entry to ensure fairness

 

[GROTTO]

With lower testosterone levels than she was as a man.

Genetically speaking, she is a man.

Game Over. End of discussion. AFLW is for women born as women genetically.

 

[rocket18]

bad argument, I don't have any issue with doing what it takes to get you through the day, if you need to change how you identify yourself so be it. Until it effects somebody else. Hanna wearing a dress effects nobody but Hanna, Hanna laying a tackle to an average girl is unfair to the girl being tackled. There is a reason there is women only sporting competition, men and women are genetically different regardless of how they identify. It's not a job it is a contact sport, and at time a brutal sport, and I can't think of any jobs now days that women can't do so employment a mute argument.

What you say makes sense - until you find out she is already playing womens footy.

The AFL are showing (once again) their incompetence/hypocrisy.

They go on about social inclusion and pushing womens issues but when push comes to shove they are saying no she can't play AFLW but its ok if she competes in a lower competition.

Their stance makes no sense, it is purely the optics they are worried about. They would be petrified if an ex-man dominated the AFLW.

I dont know the specifics but the AFL should adopt whatever the Olympics criteria is for ex-men to compete as females. Have clear criteria, not their usual vibe/make up on the run bullshit.

 

[Scorpus]

What you say makes sense - until you find out she is already playing womens footy.

The AFL are showing (once again) their incompetence/hypocrisy.

They go on about social inclusion and pushing womens issues but when push comes to shove they are saying no she can't play AFLW but its ok if she competes in a lower competition.

Their stance makes no sense, it is purely the optics they are worried about. They would be petrified if an ex-man domnated the AFLW.

I dont know the specifics but the AFL should adopt whatever the Olympics criteria is for ex-men to compete as females. Have clear criteria, not their usual vibe/make up on the run bullshit.

I find it bizarre given I believe she doesn't dominate in the lower leagues

 

[Dudersaurus]

What you say makes sense - until you find out she is already playing womens footy.

The AFL are showing (once again) their incompetence/hypocrisy.

They go on about social inclusion and pushing womens issues but when push comes to shove they are saying no she can't play AFLW but its ok if she competes in a lower competition.

Their stance makes no sense, it is purely the optics they are worried about. They would be petrified if an ex-man dominated the AFLW.

I dont know the specifics but the AFL should adopt whatever the Olympics criteria is for ex-men to compete as females. Have clear criteria, not their usual vibe/make up on the run bullshit.

It would be more interesting if a genuinely great male player transitioned who was not huge. Pure fiction and not suggesting anything, but if Lachie Neale wanted to play aflw they couldn't possibly argue against it on safety grounds, but he'd kill the game.

 

[Vader]

What you say makes sense - until you find out she is already playing womens footy.

The AFL are showing (once again) their incompetence/hypocrisy.

They go on about social inclusion and pushing womens issues but when push comes to shove they are saying no she can't play AFLW but its ok if she competes in a lower competition.

Their stance makes no sense, it is purely the optics they are worried about. They would be petrified if an ex-man dominated the AFLW.

I dont know the specifics but the AFL should adopt whatever the Olympics criteria is for ex-men to compete as females. Have clear criteria, not their usual vibe/make up on the run bullshit.

She's playing at the lower level because the AFL refused to let her play, as doing so would be unfair to all the genetically female players in the competition.

The lower leagues didn't have the same rules, and thus she was/is allowed to play.

This is a fairness issue. While banning her is unfair to her, and I have great sympathy for her, allowing her to play would clearly be unfair to all the other players. It's a simple case of the greater good.

Don't take her playing in the lower league as an argument that the AFL got it wrong. It's the lower league, which is being unfair to its own players, which is in the wrong.

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[ams4crows]

It would be more interesting if a genuinely great male player transitioned who was not huge. Pure fiction and not suggesting anything, but if Lachie Neale wanted to play afl they couldn't possibly argue against it on safety grounds, but he'd kill the game.

If the first transgender player was around the same size as the other women I think they absolutely would have been allowed to play AFLW thus set the precedent, I think this is purely about Hannah's size.

I thought she should have been able to play AFLW, people worried about her hurting others, I can assure you it's much more likely at a lower level, but even so you're telling her she's dangerous which is incredibly unfair. Accidental injuries happen all the time in Footy, people are making it seem like she's gonna go out there and smash people for fun

 

[Geoffa32]

I find it bizarre given I believe she doesn't dominate in the lower leagues

Exactly.

No player has been physically harmed by her any worse than any other player could. Wasn't a GWS player hospitalised today against us in a scratch match. Injuries happen



And she has not won all the awards.


I doubt she would dominate the AFLW at all.





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[Scorpus]

Exactly.

No player has been physically harmed by her any worse than any other player could. Wasn't a GWS player hospitalised today against us in a scratch match. Injuries happen



And she has not won all the awards.


I doubt she would dominate the AFLW at all.





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Would she even be drafted? I think I recall discussion about this issue last time and it wasn't clear whether she was good enough to be drafted

 

[Scorpus]

Ben Hart

Ben Hart

Age

51

Ht

190cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.0

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

4.4

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

0.8

3star

has joined the coaching panel of the Northern Bullants

 

[hey shorty]

Ben Hart has joined the coaching panel of the Northern Bullants

Is that the Carlton reserves ??

 

[Scorpus]

Is that the Carlton reserves ??

Used to be. They split last year to become a standalone team again

 

[spenze]

Ben Hart has joined the coaching panel of the Northern Bullants

Trying to get the number 1 draft pick?

 

[FR0GGY]

Ben Hart has joined the coaching panel of the Northern Bullants

Vale bullants

 

[skam85]

Ben Hart has joined the coaching panel of the Northern Bullants

One step closer to the Gov and Hart dream-team reuniting.

 

[subaru]

I dont need even need to put up an argument to defend the AFL's position here. They are 100% right and then some.

J Brown was one of the most feared AFL players on the ground. When you can go toe to toe with him, the AFL had a duty of care.

View attachment 1041559

picture worth a thousand words

 

[brucetiki]

One step closer to the Gov and Hart dream-team reuniting.

The Bullants are a standalone team once again, though that's not to say Gov will be recruited by them in 2022

 

[Truck25]

If the first transgender player was around the same size as the other women I think they absolutely would have been allowed to play AFLW thus set the precedent, I think this is purely about Hannah's size.

I thought she should have been able to play AFLW, people worried about her hurting others, I can assure you it's much more likely at a lower level, but even so you're telling her she's dangerous which is incredibly unfair. Accidental injuries happen all the time in Footy, people are making it seem like she's gonna go out there and smash people for fun

Injuries are only part. Fairness is the major worry. How would it be taken if Dustin Martin came out and became a woman? or any player playing AFL right now?
Would it be fair to all the women playing AFLW? No it wouldn't. I have in the past been involved in Junior basketball and had an U18 boys district side (mix of div 1 & 2) play against the U23 state women's team to give them practice and it was no contest. Having coached both Boys and Girls for many years I have come across very few girls that can hold their own against the boys in a flat out contest, but most lower division boys could easily play against the top level girls. You talk of fairness to the Transgender woman, what about the fairness of the girls they want to play against.
As I have said before, do what it takes to get you through the day, if changing your gender is what you need to do, so be it. Until it affects others and encroaches on their rights. Those girls competing against the transgender women deserve to be competing on a level playing field and quite frankly they are not. It's not a case of discrimination but genetics. If it was my daughter playing against Hanna or any other transgender woman I would be absolutely fuming as I would be concerned about her rights to a fair contest.

 

[subaru]

Injuries are only part. Fairness is the major worry. How would it be taken if Dustin Martin came out and became a woman? or any player playing AFL right now?
Would it be fair to all the women playing AFLW? No it wouldn't. I have in the past been involved in Junior basketball and had an U18 boys district side (mix of div 1 & 2) play against the U23 state women's team to give them practice and it was no contest. Having coached both Boys and Girls for many years I have come across very few girls that can hold their own against the boys in a flat out contest, but most lower division boys could easily play against the top level girls. You talk of fairness to the Transgender woman, what about the fairness of the girls they want to play against.
As I have said before, do what it takes to get you through the day, if changing your gender is what you need to do, so be it. Until it affects others and encroaches on their rights. Those girls competing against the transgender women deserve to be competing on a level playing field and quite frankly they are not. It's not a case of discrimination but genetics. If it was my daughter playing against Hanna or any other transgender woman I would be absolutely fuming as I would be concerned about her rights to a fair contest.

agree 100%

My question is why? Why would you even want to compete knowing physically you are at a huge advantage ?
Strange self belief issues at play I believe

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Will there eventually be transgender sporting leagues?

 

[arrowman]

Re Hannah Mouncey: There's a lot of point-missing going on in this thread.
- It's not about Hannah Mouncey as an individual.
- It's not about whether Hannah Mouncey is any good or not, or whether or not she would "dominate" at any particular level.
- It's not about Hannah's size/weight, or whether people think she, as a particular individual, would hurt someone.
- It's not about whether a hypothetical female "unit" as big/strong as Hannah, should be able to play against smaller women.

It's about what policy the AFL (or any other sporting body) has about transgender participants in general. You don't frame such a policy, or make exceptions, because "she's not that good anyway" or "she's pretty small / light, so play on" or "there are women bigger than her playing the game".

And those policies are (or should be) framed with due regard to safety, fairness, and dignity / respect.

World Rugby has done the work:

World Rugby approves updated transgender participation guidelines | World Rugby

World Rugby has approved updated transgender participation guidelines following a comprehensive, collaborative and transparent review of its existing guidance.

www.world.rugby

Hannah Mouncey is an intact biological male, who wishes to participate in a sex-segregated (female) sport. That she cannot may well be sad for her, but her wishes as an individual do not trump the wishes of women who are being asked to "bunch up and make room".

If the first transgender player was around the same size as the other women I think they absolutely would have been allowed to play AFLW thus set the precedent, I think this is purely about Hannah's size.

I think you are absolutely wrong on that. Even the AFL would not make a Biblical screwup like that.