List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

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24. James Frawley - Link
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g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
That's great, in the form he was in who was he replacing last year?

This has already been discussed over and over George and I've responded previously to this question. As have a lot of others.

Without harping on about it the best we can do now is learn from the mistake I hope.

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
This has already been discussed over and over George and I've responded previously to this question. As have a lot of others.

Without harping on about it the best we can do now is learn from the mistake I hope.

I got involved in the discussion today so had no idea what was previously mentioned. It's easy to say what we should've and could've done in hindsight, fact of the matter is there were others ahead of him playing better football. Same thing with Savage.

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
I got involved in the discussion today so had no idea what was previously mentioned. It's easy to say what we should've and could've done in hindsight, fact of the matter is there were others ahead of him playing better football. Same thing with Savage.

Well no, we never actually tried him to see if he could play better football at HBF. The others were only playing better because of opportunity and the fact Hind had none.

The way I see it he was on our list for two years, we had plenty of injuries and form slumps of various players in that time. The players playing in his preferred position were not superstars Newnes, Mckenzie, Long, Savage, etc.

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
Well no, we never actually tried him to see if he could play better football at HBF. The others were only playing better because of opportunity and the fact Hind had none.

The way I see it he was on our list for two years, we had plenty of injuries and form slumps of various players in that time. The players playing in his preferred position were not superstars Newnes, Mckenzie, Long, Savage, etc.

Why don't you factor in that perhaps he simply was not good enough when you analyse the situation?

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Why don't you factor in that perhaps he simply was not good enough when you analyse the situation?

Are you factoring in the possibility he was good enough but never given the chance? Because his exposed form both in VFL and now with Essendon seems to indicate that is the more likely scenario.

How would the coaches make that assessment anyway since they never tried him there in an AFL match?

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
Are you factoring in the possibility he was good enough but never given the chance? Because his exposed form both in VFL and now with Essendon seems to indicate that is the more likely scenario.

The coaches would only have been able to make that assessment on hypothetical grounds anyway since they never tried him there in an AFL match

Yes of course I'm factoring that in, because I know he was tried at half back and you admitted as much yourself in the game you saw him pick up 41 touches. He was played at half back in the reserves. No club is going to draft a player and then not try him out in the position he was drafted in.

You say they never tried him there in an AFL match. What difference does it make trying him in an AFL match as opposed to a VFL match? You used VFL as an example of him playing well at half back, surely it makes no difference then?

I think common sense would suggest they tried every half back at half back and then couldn't keep a dozen of them on the list so had to choose which ones they thought would be the best combination moving forward. Hindsight is easy to say it was a wrong move now, but at the time clearly he wasn't good enough otherwise he would've played.

I also strongly believe a big reason other than COVID for Shane Savage's departure was because of the same reason we let Hind go. We have too many players at that position.

Sully111 · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Yes of course I'm factoring that in, because I know he was tried at half back and you admitted as much yourself in the game you saw him pick up 41 touches. He was played at half back in the reserves. No club is going to draft a player and then not try him out in the position he was drafted in.

You say they never tried him there in an AFL match. What difference does it make trying him in an AFL match as opposed to a VFL match? You used VFL as an example of him playing well at half back, surely it makes no difference then?

I think common sense would suggest they tried every half back at half back and then couldn't keep a dozen of them on the list so had to choose which ones they thought would be the best combination moving forward. Hindsight is easy to say it was a wrong move now, but at the time clearly he wasn't good enough otherwise he would've played.

I also strongly believe a big reason other than COVID for Shane Savage's departure was because of the same reason we let Hind go. We have too many players at that position.

So when he got 41 in the reserves at half back that wouldn't be the time to maybe give him a shot in the seniors in that position?

The thing is you're saying common sense would suggest etc... but you don't know.

You know what I do know? Nick Hind is bloody good half back in the AFL. It's a shame st kilda couldn't have figured that out.

KingsRansom · Jun 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Why the fu** did we get him then? The list looks great, I'm on the wrong track and everything is fine. Top 4 next year, premiership 2023 in the bag just before we go on our 5-peat..

Thats the spirit!!!

George · Jun 1, 2021

Sully111 said:
So when he got 41 in the reserves at half back that wouldn't be the time to maybe give him a shot in the seniors in that position?

The thing is you're saying common sense would suggest etc... but you don't know.

You know what I do know? Nick Hind is bloody good half back in the AFL. It's a shame st kilda couldn't have figured that out.

Lol mate, there was some stat on Fox Footy last night that basically alluded to Hind being the second coming of Adam Saad and Hind being ranked 2nd in a specific category important to players playing his position (if someone remembers please post it, it was rebounding I think).

If he was among the top 3 players in his position he would've shown it when he was with us and it doesn't matter if that was VFL or AFL. His quality would've come through and it didn't otherwise we would've played him. Like Luke Dunstan, we wouldn't have been able to turn the other cheek because he'd be banging the door down to play. That didn't happen either. He wasn't good enough. Good on him for moving to a club that had a better chance of him breaking through and he has done the work obviously to keep his career alive. But we can't sit here and say the player he is in 2021 was the same player last year. There's nothing to suggest that, if you want to pull the "well he didn't get a chance" card...well he did, in the VFL, and didn't do enough.

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Yes of course I'm factoring that in, because I know he was tried at half back and you admitted as much yourself in the game you saw him pick up 41 touches. He was played at half back in the reserves. No club is going to draft a player and then not try him out in the position he was drafted in.

You say they never tried him there in an AFL match. What difference does it make trying him in an AFL match as opposed to a VFL match? You used VFL as an example of him playing well at half back, surely it makes no difference then?

I think common sense would suggest they tried every half back at half back and then couldn't keep a dozen of them on the list so had to choose which ones they thought would be the best combination moving forward. Hindsight is easy to say it was a wrong move now, but at the time clearly he wasn't good enough otherwise he would've played.

I also strongly believe a big reason other than COVID for Shane Savage's departure was because of the same reason we let Hind go. We have too many players at that position.

I disagree with the bolded part, I think in the mind of the coaches he wasn't good enough, and I think they were incorrect. Players don't just magically become guns overnight.

But I'm not going to continue this argument any further as it serves no purpose now.

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
I disagree with the bolded part, I think in the mind of the coaches he wasn't good enough, and I think they were incorrect.

But I'm not going to continue this argument any further as it serves no purpose now.

It's on the player. He needed to show he was good enough and he didn't. I know last years seconds competition was interrupted so that didn't help, but then it brings you to the question of what else did they have to go on. His first year with us wasn't that flash either. If he was performing in the VFL the last two years in the same way he is performing this year he would've played, it's as simple as that IMO.

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
It's on the player. He needed to show he was good enough and he didn't. I know last years seconds competition was interrupted so that didn't help, but then it brings you to the question of what else did they have to go on. His first year with us wasn't that flash either. If he was performing in the VFL the last two years in the same way he is performing this year he would've played, it's as simple as that IMO.

Yes, it's on the player but it's also on the coaches too.

The player needs to do everything they can to show they are an option and the coach needs to be receptive to what that player can offer and not pigeonhole them.

I don't know exactly what happened with Hind and if our coaches did that but it's not ALL the player

Sully111 · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Lol mate, there was some stat on Fox Footy last night that basically alluded to Hind being the second coming of Adam Saad and Hind being ranked 2nd in a specific category important to players playing his position (if someone remembers please post it, it was rebounding I think).

If he was among the top 3 players in his position he would've shown it when he was with us and it doesn't matter if that was VFL or AFL. His quality would've come through and it didn't otherwise we would've played him. Like Luke Dunstan, we wouldn't have been able to turn the other cheek because he'd be banging the door down to play. That didn't happen either. He wasn't good enough. Good on him for moving to a club that had a better chance of him breaking through and he has done the work obviously to keep his career alive. But we can't sit here and say the player he is in 2021 was the same player last year. There's nothing to suggest that, if you want to pull the "well he didn't get a chance" card...well he did, in the VFL, and didn't do enough.

Orrrrrrrrrrr

Our coaching staff were too dumb to recognise his potential in that position.

He's thrived at essendon. Why is that?

It can't be debated that he's playing well in that position.

Nobody seems to want to actually take ownership for anything these days. Always justifications and excuses. It's a pet hate of mine.

If we want success this is a perfect example of where we can learn from a situation where we fell down.

Mowman is right... we're doing the same with battle. We'll screw that up too if we're not careful.

Dr Spaceman · Jun 1, 2021

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
Yes, it's on the player but it's also on the coaches too.

The player needs to do everything they can to show they are an option and the coach needs to be receptive to what that player can offer and not pigeonhole them.

I don't know exactly what happened with Hind and if our coaches did that but it's not ALL the player

Yep and Hind didn't do that otherwise he would've played.

Sully111 said:
Orrrrrrrrrrr

Our coaching staff were too dumb to recognise his potential in that position.

He's thrived at essendon. Why is that?

It can't be debated that he's playing well in that position.

Nobody seems to want to actually take ownership for anything these days. Always justifications and excuses. It's a pet hate of mine.

If we want success this is a perfect example of where we can learn from a situation where we fell down.

Mowman is right... we're doing the same with battle. We'll screw that up too if we're not careful.

Lmao, you hate people not taking ownership yet mention nothing about how it could be Hind wasn't good enough. It is very very simple. If he played in 2019 and 2020 to the level he is playing now, he would've played. Dumb coaches don't get a side to a semi final in their first full year lol.

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Yep and Hind didn't do that otherwise he would've played.

Do you have that much blind faith that you refuse to accept the possibility our coaching team could have made an error in judgment?

Look I'll accept the possibility he's just improved remarkably over the course of 1 pre-season. Maybe he has? I'm not that stubborn to accept my opinion is the only one that could be correct. You won't even accept the possibility you are wrong.

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
Do you have that much blind faith that you refuse to accept the possibility our coaching team could have made an error in judgment?

Look I'll accept the possibility he's just improved remarkably over the course of 1 pre-season. Maybe he has? I'm not that stubborn to accept my opinion is the only one that could be correct. You won't even accept the possibility you are wrong.

I'll say it again. If he was playing as good as he is now back in 2019 or 2020 he would have played. Why is that difficult to accept? What consistent form at any level made you think we made a mistake?

prophetic1 · Jun 1, 2021

Regarding the possible desire to acquire Ben KING: As to the benefit to the Team I think there's little doubt he'd be some sort of advantage as far as his individual input is concerned.

What may be of greater import to us is the support that the two of them would give each other....I'm sure they would have worked through many an obstacle together over the years. I guess what I'm saying is both individually possess great attributes but their collective contributions would be greater than the sum total of their parts.
The anxiety experienced by one at any given time would be more readily eased. What they offer each other in that way could mean a far greater potential for the fulfillment of our dreams and their own.

I imagine having worked through all their footy development together one may at any given time of insecurity or doubt really benefit by the others presence and input. Furthermore the personal competition between them can potentiate the ignore and override function when nuisance insecurities occur..... allowing them to more successfully focus on their goals.

Twins.... often even better performers together than they are apart.

Enclosed_Animal · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
I got involved in the discussion today so had no idea what was previously mentioned. It's easy to say what we should've and could've done in hindsight, fact of the matter is there were others ahead of him playing better football. Same thing with Savage.

Oh FFS this Hind thing is getting ridiculous now. You are absolutely spot on that Hind was about 7th in the 2020 HBF depth charts (assuming all fit) behind Paton, Clark, Coff, Long, Savage, Geary and JWebb. The captain barely got a look in there. There was also no VFL in 2020 for him to press claims.

Considering some of the comments going on, I thought I would have a look at 2019 (his first year) and find he was tearing it up at VFL. According to some he was an unappreciated superstar on the HBF at Sandy (before he played the last 11 games of the year in the seniors).

Looking at the thread of the Sandy games that year (and my own recollection) he never played as a permanent forward. He was pretty much always in the running HBF role like he is now. Going through the thread from that year, he played about 7 or 8 actual games at Sandy (factoring in byes, late VFL start etc). May have missed something small here or there. However, I can certainly find enough to get a pretty good idea (Grimlock’s stats are usually pretty bang on too). Looking back:

Hind looks like he was a carry over emergency the week before he made his debut. In that Sandy game White had 27 and named BOG off a HBF

Northern Blues (26 May): 20 touches 1 goal (Coff had 21 and Gilbert 18. Both Gilbo and Coff in the bests. Hind not). That goal is 1 of 3 I can find for him for the year.

Ess (19 May): 22 touches (Coff 22 and White 21. Both in the bests. Hind not)

Coll (12 May): 19 touches. Was 1000% there as I remember Clark was BOG by the length of Flemington straight. Hind turned it over plenty running himself into trouble. Nowhere near our bests and both him and really Coff struggled in the backline that day. Marsh had to bail him out after bad turnovers more than once. Pretty sure that was King's first game

Frankston (5 May): 23 touches & 2 tackles. Gilbo also 23 and Coff and White 16 (cant find the bests but Dunstan had a day out and Frankston are terrible oppostion)

Bye

Will (21 April): 20 touches. Not in the best.

Hawks (April 14): 39 and a goal. Possibly the game being referred to above. Comments from this game indicate he was playing midfield. Looks like our BOG in a team that lost by 10 goals.

Dogs (April 5): 18 and a goal. Sandy fogged as usual. Those commenting leaving early haha. Nothing suggesting Hind is in our bests

Essendon practice game (March 31): Comments indicate he played, Not in the top disposal winners, goals or bests. Lots of positivity about Marsh and Clark.

Yes that Hawks game in isolation looks good. But this idea he was some star and Sandy is ridiculous. Depending on the week, he was the 3rd or 4th best HBF running around in our seconds. That he had 50 touches and was kicking multiple goals appears to be one of those myths that if it gets said enough, people start to believe it is true

We also drafted Connelly during this period (another running HBF) and still rated Hind enough to offer 1 year. On exposed form, looks about right. He left for a longer contract and has made a go of being a completely unaccountable rebound defender at Essendon (a setup he could step into as it was tailor made for Saad). Good on him. But nothing in his two years at St.Kilda showed any signs of that happening. This revisionist history is getting absurd

g_TRAIN · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
I'll say it again. If he was playing as good as he is now back in 2019 or 2020 he would have played. Why is that difficult to accept? What consistent form at any level made you think we made a mistake?

I'll say it again the fact he was consistently playing well for Sandy in 2019 as a defender. The fact he's now playing well.

You can't just ignore facts.

Your logic is basically that he wasn't picked so he can't have been playing well. That doesn't make sense.

It would make sense if people were infallible to mistakes and errors of judgment but we're not and unfortunately looks like some errors of judgment were made regarding Nick Hind which we can all see now apart from you.

I'm not trying to beat on the club here I accept people make mistakes, but it doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

You can agree to disagree if you like and we will leave it at that but if you keep pushing your point I'll just repeat myself.

George · Jun 1, 2021

Enclosed_Animal said:
Oh FFS this Hind thing is getting ridiculous now. You are absolutely spot on that Hind was about 7th in the 2020 HBF depth charts (assuming all fit) behind Paton, Clark, Coff, Long, Savage, Geary and JWebb. The captain barely got a look in there. There was also no VFL in 2020 for him to press claims.

Considering some of the comments going on, I thought I would have a look at 2019 (his first year) and find he was tearing it up at VFL. According to some he was some superstar on the HBF at Sandy (before he played the last 11 games of the year in the seniors).

Looking at the thread of the Sandy games that year (and my own recollection) he never played permanent forward. He was running off the HBF in a role like he is now. Going through the thread from that year, he played about 4 actual games at Sandy (factoring in byes, late VFL start etc). May have missed one or two. But can find enough to get an idea (Grimlock’s stats are usually pretty bang on too). Looking back:

Hind looks like he was a carry over emergency the week before he made his debut. In that sandy game White had 27 and named BOG off a HBF

Norther Blues (26 May): 20 touches 1 goal (Coff had 21 and Gilbert 18. Both Gilbo and Coff in the bests. Hind not). That is also the only goal I can find he kicked for the year

Ess (19 May): 22 touches (Coff 22 and White 21. Both in the bests. Hind not)

Coll (12 May): 19 touches. Was 1000% there as I remember Clark was BOG by the length of Flemington straight. Hind turned it over plenty running himself into trouble. Nowhere near our bests and both him and really Coff struggled in the backline that day

Will (21 April): 20 touches. Not in the best.

This idea he was some star and Sandy is ridiculous. Depending on the week, he was the 3rd or 4th best HBF running around in our seconds. That he had 50 touches and was kicking multiple goals appears to be one of those myths that if it gets said enough, people start to believe it is true

Lol yep I knew we played him at half back in the reserves, apparently that's not good enough for some because for some reason the only way a player can show how good he is though AFL games. Weird logic.

Some say I don't want to accept we "got it wrong", I'm just sharing the facts of the matter, if some refuse to accept it then oh well. Hind wasn't good enough at the time we let him go. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

George · Jun 1, 2021

g_TRAIN said:
I'll say it again the fact he was consistently playing well for Sandy in 2019 as a defender. The fact he's now playing well.

You can't just ignore facts.

Your logic is basically that he wasn't picked so he can't have been playing well. That doesn't make sense.

It would make sense if people were infallible to mistakes and errors of judgment but we're not and unfortunately looks like some errors of judgment were made regarding Nick Hind which we can all see now apart from you.

I'm not trying to beat on the club here I accept people make mistakes, but it doesn't mean it's not frustrating.

You can agree to disagree if you like and we will leave it at that but if you keep pushing your point I'll just repeat myself.

They aren't facts mate, he wasn't consistently playing good enough at all. Check the post above mine.

Mstr Strokesman · Jun 1, 2021

prophetic1 said:
Regarding the possible desire to acquire Ben KING: As to the benefit to the Team I think there's little doubt he'd be some sort of advantage as far as his individual input is concerned.

What may be of greater import to us is the support that the two of them would give each other....I'm sure they would have worked through many an obstacle together over the years. I guess what I'm saying is both individually possess great attributes but their collective contributions would be greater than the sum total of their parts.
The anxiety experienced by one at any given time would be more readily eased. What they offer each other in that way could mean a far greater potential for the fulfillment of our dreams and their own.

I imagine having worked through all their footy development together one may at any given time of insecurity or doubt really benefit by the others presence and input. Furthermore the personal competition between them can potentiate the ignore and override function when nuisance insecurities occur..... allowing them to more successfully focus on their goals.

Twins.... often even better performers together than they are apart.

So true.When the Wakelins got together at Stkilda their nicknames were Showbags .
why? because they were full of sh#t.
i think the King twins may have a few more brains
Go figure.
nb Shane Wakelins son is in year 10 and not eligible for Father son .Just another we miss out on

Sully111 · Jun 1, 2021

George said:
Yep and Hind didn't do that otherwise he would've played.

Lmao, you hate people not taking ownership yet mention nothing about how it could be Hind wasn't good enough. It is very very simple. If he played in 2019 and 2020 to the level he is playing now, he would've played. Dumb coaches don't get a side to a semi final in their first full year lol.

Battle... wing.... etc

George · Jun 1, 2021

Sully111 said:
Battle... wing.... etc

Hind was playing at half back in the reserves

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