List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

pebblesofsand · May 28, 2021

ScrappyDo said:
In the last few years, we've lost Koby, Freezer and Hanners.
This year it's Gresh and Jones.

Some will say it's bad management but at least they've been trying to do something about it.

Koby was very very underestimated.

He was a big loss and that changed our recruiting dynamics. Would have been only 30 if he was still playing this year.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
Trying to get him this year is the worst thing the club could possibly do IMO.

Unless we stumble on a treasure chest of first rounders. It will suck in any year. The cost is going to be bloody high.

aussierulesrules · May 28, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
Koby was very very underestimated.

He was a big loss and that changed our recruiting dynamics. Would have been only 30 if he was still playing this year.

He was a super-hard at it big bull, and from memory did a good tagging job on someone the week before, so we definitely missed him when he went down. Not suggesting he’d still be playing for us now had he stayed fit/uninjured though.

It’s been staggering the number of guys we’ve lost to early retirement in recent years though, and it’s a huge part of the reason the rebuild has taken so long.

Stuv
Armo
Robbo
McCartin
Stevens
Longer
About to be Carlisle

And not only did we lose the ability to have them in our team, but we had to often pay for them to not play, which has given us a lot less money/cap space to play with for recruiting.

In 2019 for instance we were presumably paying Stuv, Robbo, Paddy, Armo and Carlisle over $3mil of our salary cap, for them to play the following number of games:

Stuv (~ $750k)- 7 games
Robbo (~ $650k)- 0 games
Armo (~ $650k)- 2 games
Paddy ($500k)- 0 games
Carlisle (~ $550k)- 10 games

Oh and of course that was Hannas first year with us, so we were paying him who knows, maybe a $mil, to play 5 games!

So those 6 mostly injured/unavailable guys were taking up maybe $4mil of our salary cap, to play 24 games between them!

Then last year we were paying Robbo and Paddy to play 1 game and Stuv to play for another team. Presumably over a mil of our salary cap.

tomjoad · May 28, 2021

aussierulesrules said:
You do realise that those guys are super-rare and that every other club desperately wants them too don’t you!?

You’re basically describing pre-injuries Jaeger O’Meara there.

Those types tend to only come along every now and then and when they do you’re very likely to need pick 1 to get them.

About the last guy we drafted that fit that type description was Joel Smith.

Winmar probably the best fit of all, but he was better suited to the wing.

Actually Joey fit most of that description as well, but I don’t remember him much for his tackling.

Yes, I know what I'm asking for Aussie...I'd like us to get one...or 6. Yep, preferably six. They don't have to be pick one...they can be a rookie, or pick 57 for all I care...they just have to play like and be like a pick one. It can happen...why not us!?

bird_man · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Unless we stumble on a treasure chest of first rounders. It will suck in any year. The cost is going to be bloody high.

Yeah a treasure chest of first rounders would be handy but I don't see that happening unfortunately.

Our number one priority this year needs to be a mid and the way the draft looks this year and the pick we will likely have I would hate to see us trade that pick away.

If we can get a gun young mid this year and go hard for him next year where our pick might not be so high and he is out of contract it would make a lot more sense.

Pardon me · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
Yeah a treasure chest of first rounders would be handy but I don't see that happening unfortunately.

Our number one priority this year needs to be a mid and the way the draft looks this year and the pick we will likely have I would hate to see us trade that pick away.

If we can get a gun young mid this year and go hard for him next year where our pick might not be so high and he is out of contract it would make a lot more sense.

I've come around to this line of thinking mate. Initially I was all aboard Stavro's concept but in recent days have swung.
Put the onus back on Ben, why should we as a club pay a premium price when we're holding a very decent hand of our own?
If he *really* wants to play with Max at his childhood team, well...door's open big fella, just walk on in.

Moorabbin Ghost · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
All I’ve heard and I mentioned this the other week to a few in a PM is that the confidence of King being a saint is really high from those at the club. Like - happy to share with stkilda people and not just internally confident type of high.

I think Gold Coast are putting everything in the “make finals and he’ll stay” basket and they are a way off that this year.

I do truly believe that if Ben says to the Suns that he is going home and coming to us regardless of anything. That there is a chance we could land him this year.

The Suns will offer him huge money again, and probably a long term. I think if we are prepared to offer something similar to Max’s contract then Ben will come.
There’s always a chance he asks this year to go but at this stage I’ve heard nothing and am waiting until the 22 trade period.
The other issue is that the Suns will ask for 2 firsts plus significantly more.
I think Ben ends up a Saint but I’m concerned at the cost vs the need.

gringo2011 · May 28, 2021

aussierulesrules said:
Looking at Hawkins’ stats it was actually when he returned to the side in R17 of 2011 that he came good.

In his previous/first 9 games that season he kicked a paltry 5 goals and took 10 contested marks.

In the final/next 9 games (including a QF, PF, and GF) he kicked 22 goals and took 32 contested marks!

Prior to R17 of that season he averaged 1.2 contested marks per game- over his first 70 games- in the next/last 9 games of that season he averaged 3.5.

He took 5 in the prelim and in the grannie he took 7, kicked 3.3 and received the 3rd most votes for the Norm Smith medal. He was instrumental in that premiership.

(So in Hawkins first 70 games- until approx 23yo- he averaged 1.2 contested marks per game. Max in just 27 games and at just 20yo is averaging a tick under 1.8, and has already taken 4 in a game 3 times (including in a final). Tom did it just 3 times in his first 70 games, and didn’t take more than 4 in a game until that 71st game, in his 5th season, when he finally started to really come good).

I'd say Tom Hawkins was a good or very good forward for a long time but it's probably only in the last 5 years that he really became a dominant forward. He seemed to get to a point where he realised he was huge and started using his size and presence as an advantage. His stats probably don't show that but his mentality shifted at some point and he actually dominated games at some point. He went from being dangerous to being someone you had to plan against to beat Geelong.

I'm hoping Max I more like Mc Kay or one of the forwards who really comes on super quickly. Pre injury Daniher seems to be the most like for like player, both ridiculously tall, both hard to match due to their athleticism and evasiveness etc. Actually just the comparison and they are nearly identical in stats. Spookily so.

Joe Daniher and Max King AFL Stats Comparison

Joe Daniher and Max King AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

gringo2011 · May 28, 2021

aussierulesrules said:
I didn’t say learning from them was a waste of time though. Just worrying, wallowing in misery and knashing your teeth about them.

Tell me one positive thing any of the latter achieves.

Puts pressure back on the club so that they actually realise that fans aren't going to put up with their incompetence?

gringo2011 · May 28, 2021

aussierulesrules said:
You do realise that those guys are super-rare and that every other club desperately wants them too don’t you!?

You’re basically describing pre-injuries Jaeger O’Meara there.

Those types tend to only come along every now and then and when they do you’re very likely to need pick 1 to get them.

About the last guy we drafted that fit that type description was Joel Smith.

Winmar probably the best fit of all, but he was better suited to the wing.

Actually Joey fit most of that description as well, but I don’t remember him much for his tackling.

Looks like what Poulter was going to be last year and we went and picked up a long term project Battle style utility instead. If you actually grab a few and start to sort through them you are more likely to find one.

aussierulesrules said:
Yeah it would be ideal to add a “gun mid” from the pointy-end of the draft this year, and then add Bing at the end of next year.

Him and Max in the same forwardline could be ridiculously hard for other teams to contain (especially as Ben is fantastic on the lead, while Max is stronger in pack/contested marking, so they’d compliment each other extremely well), and that gives us potentially/hopefully years to build the rest of the team around them.

And a midfield of

Steele
Gresham
Crouch
Jones
Clark
Bytel
Ross
Byrnes
Sinclair
Hill
Billings (or 2021 high draft pick)
2021 high draft pick

could be a very good one by Ben’s first year, in 2023. Barring any more unforeseen, Stuv/Robbo like catastrophes.

That said, if Max reaches anywhere near his full potential, then him and say Marshall and Membrey/Battle ought to be more than enough up front, and we could then load up on the midfield and ruck, so if Ben extends his contract with them during the next year or so I won’t be crying myself to sleep over it.

I'd actually prefer it if he stays. If we are in a match against the Dogs with all our best players up forward it might not actually get down there unless we find some more midfield quality. We need stars but it's all condensed up forward if we have two Kings. He's the romantic choice but perhaps not the wisest choice.

Yawkey way · May 28, 2021

gringo2011 said:
I'd say all of them look amazing on potential but there are a million stories of potential that never got actualised. North had a similar bad luck with injuries and wasn't allowed as an excuse.

They were very unlucky after drafting pretty well imo.

Then again they really blew through some picks and cash with rubbish trades, a familiar tale of failing to recognise where the list really rates.

gringo2011 · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
Yeah a treasure chest of first rounders would be handy but I don't see that happening unfortunately.

Our number one priority this year needs to be a mid and the way the draft looks this year and the pick we will likely have I would hate to see us trade that pick away.

If we can get a gun young mid this year and go hard for him next year where our pick might not be so high and he is out of contract it would make a lot more sense.

A Sam Walsh would be nice.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

Moorabbin Ghost said:
The Suns will offer him huge money again, and probably a long term. I think if we are prepared to offer something similar to Max’s contract then Ben will come.
There’s always a chance he asks this year to go but at this stage I’ve heard nothing and am waiting until the 22 trade period.
The other issue is that the Suns will ask for 2 firsts plus significantly more.
I think Ben ends up a Saint but I’m concerned at the cost vs the need.

As I’ve pointed out in the last 2 weeks and got flamed

You need to take 2 in the first round between 21 and 23 and we only have 3 first rounders and we will lose 2 for Ben.

Where do we find another first - without upsetting everyone about JB again.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

Pardon me said:
I've come around to this line of thinking mate. Initially I was all aboard Stavro's concept but in recent days have swung.
Put the onus back on Ben, why should we as a club pay a premium price when we're holding a very decent hand of our own?
If he *really* wants to play with Max at his childhood team, well...door's open big fella, just walk on in.

Or the alternative is that you don’t go after Ben and Max gets injured and you literally have **** all up forward.

Stewart66 · May 28, 2021

Grav said:
We want the likes of Bontempelli, Petracca, Cripps, Fyfe etc. in our team, well I believe coaches look at our stock with eyes wide open & stop being one dimensional.
A lot of our players in their draft year are listed in different positions to where they are playing their AFL careers, give them a chance back where they belong.
Now back to the opening paragraph, why not play Nick Coffield for the rest of the season in the midfield? He has the size, speed & is more than a capable footballer, played there as well as a junior.
Who knows what he would be like if given the chance.

draftcentral.com.au

This domain may be for sale!

afl.draftcentral.com.au

He‘s a half back flanker .........will be a good one given confidence.

My opinion we need to address midfield big time , by chance we have a lot in our backyard - Dragons

Chesser / Callaghan / Sinn would be generational change that we require.

Big chance of 2 if we it right or 3 if we go all in ..or pick one these if taken

Johnson WA

Fahey SA

As said 2 years time would have really good team ...in my opinion.

bird_man · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
As I’ve pointed out in the last 2 weeks and got flamed

You need to take 2 in the first round between 21 and 23 and we only have 3 first rounders and we will lose 2 for Ben.

Where do we find another first - without upsetting everyone about JB again.

We had a first round pick last year and one this year which means we can trade the following two (2022, 2023)

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
We had a first round pick last year and one this year which means we can trade the following two (2022, 2023)

Your missing my point. You don’t want 1 first rounder in 3 years. List suicide.
2 and your comfortable you didn’t mortgage the future.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

Stewart66 said:
He‘s a half back flanker .........will be a good one given confidence.

My opinion we need to address midfield big time , by chance we have a lot in our backyard - Dragons

Chesser / Callaghan / Sinn would be generational change that we require.

Big chance of 2 if we it right or 3 if we go all in ..or pick one these if taken

Johnson WA

Fahey SA

As said 2 years time would have really good team ...in my opinion.

Johnson is the huge upside potential flop. Something about those types gets me every time

bird_man · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Your missing my point. You don’t want 1 first rounder in 3 years. List suicide.
2 and your comfortable you didn’t mortgage the future.

Exactly the reason we need to put Ben on the back burner and hit the draft.

I doubt too many are upset about your Billings talk, it's just more that many find it hard to believe he will get us band one. Time will tell though I guess.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
Exactly the reason we need to put Ben on the back burner and hit the draft.

I doubt too many are upset about your Billings talk, it's just more that many find it hard to believe he will get us band one. Time will tell though I guess.

It’s the most likely option of navigating this scenario. Take 1 and King this year or 2 this year and trade the 22/23 firsts.

Effectively Billings and a first rounder for Ben king.

Yawkey way · May 28, 2021

gringo2011 said:
A Sam Walsh would be nice.

He’s a very good players but I’m greedy and want someone with his work rate but better foot skills and size, an explosive player whose good in the air as well.

Just on billings I have him penciled in alongside Gresham as a forward, I think we’ve taken a potential star fwd and turned him into a good wingman. Gresham and billings both found plenty of the ball as forwards which is a real talent, 40 possessions a week alongside Ming would be incredible.

Forget all the can’t kick rubbish he’s actually a very good kick who had the goal kicking yips. It’s like moving king into the ruck or down back because he’s missing some easy chances.

bird_man · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
It’s the most likely option of navigating this scenario. Take 1 and King this year or 2 this year and trade the 22/23 firsts.

Effectively Billings and a first rounder for Ben king.

I think it's more wishful thinking than anything but I could be wrong.

We are due for a bit of luck.

stavro#4 · May 28, 2021

bird_man said:
I think it's more wishful thinking than anything but I could be wrong.

We are due for a bit of luck.

Either Billings is a good player and thus we should be confident he gets offers like one.

Or this board overrates him something chronic and for a lot of people the truth will be coming.

I’m confident he is the first category and potentially a gun in a very good side. But I’m willing to part because I believe it will make us better in the long term. That’s all I care about. We aren’t a contender with the current list build - not far off. But it needs more.

Keen to see anyone else propose a better idea. But I think this is the best path forward.

Grav · May 28, 2021

Stewart66 said:
He‘s a half back flanker .........will be a good one given confidence.

My opinion we need to address midfield big time , by chance we have a lot in our backyard - Dragons

Chesser / Callaghan / Sinn would be generational change that we require.

Big chance of 2 if we it right or 3 if we go all in ..or pick one these if taken

Johnson WA

Fahey SA

As said 2 years time would have really good team ...in my opinion.

Why couldn’t he be more than a half back flanker? We have Long, Highmore, Webster etc. to fill that role. Let Coff of the leash for a few games then, worse case scenario is he fails, but gets his confidence back at attacking the ball. Besides it’s who we have now, not who we may have in the future. With our injuries of especially mids this year, what could be the harm?

bird_man · May 28, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Either Billings is a good player and thus we should be confident he gets offers like one.

Or this board overrates him something chronic and for a lot of people the truth will be coming.

I’m confident he is the first category and potentially a gun in a very good side. But I’m willing to part because I believe it will make us better in the long term. That’s all I care about. We aren’t a contender with the current list build - not far off. But it needs more.

Keen to see anyone else propose a better idea. But I think this is the best path forward.

I'm not against the idea if he can get us a band one.

I just fear the most likely scenario is we hold hope that he gets us that band one and push him out but he falls short and we are left losing a good footballer for a bit of a nothing pick.

If it ends up like you suggest it might and we finish with something like picks 7 and 8 I don't think there'd be too many complaints.

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