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List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
 
bird_man said:
That works if he's a good assistant coach.

With the soft cap as small as it is though we'd probably be better off paying him as a player and using him as a developmet coach?

I think Port are doing something similar with Tyson Goldsack?
Click to expand...

Is tyson goldsack on ports list? Well there you go, lol had no idea
 
Joffaboy said:
Plenty of players from the Lyon era had the exact same thing to say about Lyon and his favourites.... one big difference, Lyon got us to 3 top 4's, Grand finals in two seasons and another finals appearance.

Even without the ultimate success, his 'favourites' routine is cut more slack than Richo's because of the success he did have.
Click to expand...
It is cut more slack for nearly getting us there, but it also dug us the near decade-long hole we found ourselves in afterwards. Sure will be interesting to see if he gets a gig at Collingwood
 
stavro#4 said:
Great communicator with young men.

ideal for a development coach role rather then a line.
Click to expand...
Not sure about that, he'd be good with the young blokes but could probably teach them a thing or two about lines as well

Edit: about 15 minutes late with that joke and apparently the first one wasn't that well received... move on
 

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SaintSteele9 said:
It is cut more slack for nearly getting us there, but it also dug us the near decade-long hole we found ourselves in afterwards. Sure will be interesting to see if he gets a gig at Collingwood
Click to expand...
Ridiculous to blame Lyon for our decade long hole.

He did everything he thought would get us to a flag and was an unlucky bounce and some more bad luck away from back to back.

Bad management and drafting kept us down for this long. Lyon didn't make us draft the players we chose to and he didn't appoint Richo and the dude Jones set alight on mad monday
 
bird_man said:
Ridiculous to blame Lyon for our decade long hole.

He did everything he thought would get us to a flag and was an unlucky bounce and some more bad luck away from back to back.

Bad management and drafting kept us down for this long. Lyon didn't make us draft the players we chose to and he didn't appoint Richo and the dude Jones set alight on mad monday
Click to expand...

Garbage, he didn't need to ignore development. We didn't need to treat recruiting as an afterthought.
Yes focus on premiership, but it was not necessary to ignore the rest. Head coaches are allowed to allocate if they don't want to do it themself.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Garbage, he didn't need to ignore development. We didn't need to treat recruiting as an afterthought.
Yes focus on premiership, but it was not necessary to ignore the rest. Head coaches are allowed to allocate if they don't want to do it themself.
Click to expand...
It's hardly his fault for our lack of success over 10 years.

Do you think giving David Armitage a game over Luke Ball would be the difference to us being great or shit over the last decade?

Let's also remember our drafting was also really poor during that period.

The guy wasn't perfect with kids but he also nearly won us a flag and to blame him for 10 years of being shit is just laughable
 
stavro#4 said:
I know stories about Ross too.

One thing I will say, Ross was ******* direct as I’ve heard only second to a story I heard about Clarko during the very early days of his Hawks tenure.

If Ross thought you were sh*t and not going to cut it. You got told and it was black and white.

If you got dropped you knew why. If you got selected you knew the job you had to do.

Those on the out with Ross probably felt dirty on him. This story I know the player still does to this day. But whilst the player has improved, he was just an okay VFL player who never got an AFL game. Ross was right.
Click to expand...

interesting I too heard a fascinating story on Ross from an ex assistant who Ross sacked and this person went on to tell me.....Lyon was the best coach he’d seen up close and in his words “GT f your club”.....this person not a saints background. I found it amazingas Ross sacked him but he said he was meticulous.
 
bird_man said:
Ridiculous to blame Lyon for our decade long hole.

He did everything he thought would get us to a flag and was an unlucky bounce and some more bad luck away from back to back.

Bad management and drafting kept us down for this long. Lyon didn't make us draft the players we chose to and he didn't appoint Richo and the dude Jones set alight on mad monday
Click to expand...

Thing is if we’d won in 2009 I wouldn’t have cared about the state of the list afterwards.
In fact, I reckon if we’d got the monkey off our back in 2009 there’s a very good chance we could have done it again in 2010.

Just look at the confidence the Cats got after winning their first for decades.
 
SaintSteele9 said:
It is cut more slack for nearly getting us there, but it also dug us the near decade-long hole we found ourselves in afterwards. Sure will be interesting to see if he gets a gig at Collingwood
Click to expand...

Ross Lyon isn't responsible for a decade-long lack of success.

Easy to pin it on him but come on. Sure he could have been better with development but if you just want to blame Ross, you're letting others off the hook.

Not to mention...bee's d*ck off 2 flags.

Narrative would be different but for a few sh*tty circumstances.
 

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Joffaboy said:
There was a poster on here last night posting defamatory stuff about Hanners and his 'influence' on young players non football activities.

I see the mods deleted them. I know there was jokes about lines before but be careful guys.
Click to expand...

Ok, can see the issue about that, was not aware of those comments. My apologies
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Garbage, he didn't need to ignore development. We didn't need to treat recruiting as an afterthought.
Yes focus on premiership, but it was not necessary to ignore the rest. Head coaches are allowed to allocate if they don't want to do it themself.
Click to expand...

Ross' development was fantastic. He took a team with a handful of superstars and a heap of role players to the brink of back to back flags.

It's no coincidence at all that so many of our team in that era improved out of sight within 12 months of Ross taking over.
 
In regards to why we have fallen into a 10 year hole of poor performance.
There is a business author some will be aware of named Jim Collins (built to last, great by choice, ect.) who takes two companies, one successful and one not and compares their behaviours to see why one was successful.

I think in this model, Geelong and St Kilda are a great comparison.
To me (and others will know both clubs better then me) St Kilda has failed to be consistently excellent in the key areas of strategy, recruiting, development and administration. I feel (like Jim uncovers) if you want to be great you need to be consistent over an extended period of time and we will keep paying for shortcuts taken from 10 years ago.
Geelong seem to have been consistent with the key areas (look at how we both managed cap during our peak times) and thus they haven’t fallen off the cliff.
No Ross isn’t THE reason we suck today, but he is part of the fabric that has added to our woes. At least in my opinion.
 
WhiskySaint said:
In regards to why we have fallen into a 10 year hole of poor performance.
There is a business author some will be aware of named Jim Collins (built to last, great by choice, ect.) who takes two companies, one successful and one not and compares their behaviours to see why one was successful.

I think in this model, Geelong and St Kilda are a great comparison.
To me (and others will know both clubs better then me) St Kilda has failed to be consistently excellent in the key areas of strategy, recruiting, development and administration. I feel (like Jim uncovers) if you want to be great you need to be consistent over an extended period of time and we will keep paying for shortcuts taken from 10 years ago.
Geelong seem to have been consistent with the key areas (look at how we both managed cap during our peak times) and thus they haven’t fallen off the cliff.
No Ross isn’t THE reason we suck today, but he is part of the fabric that has added to our woes. At least in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Really interesting with Geelong how a few good operators really straightened them up. They were nearly broke, down the ladder, had the hand baggers title, seemed away from the action where no-one wanted to go and generally a small regional nothing team.

Costa, Cook, wells etc all seemed to be just the right mix of excellent operators in exactly the right areas. As clumsy and messy as GT and Butterss were they were like a second rate version of the Geelong model. Ex players with passion and an ability to sell the dream. Saw the list build as the priority and stopped trying to take short cuts after a brutal lesson and realised that you couldn't carry people who didn't care. Post GT and John Beverage we fell off a cliff in recruiting and vision. Lyon rode GT's horse until it died but no-one at the club was looking ahead and had only one goal which was win one now.

The greatest mistake we then made was to not go out and identify that as an issue and instead employed professionals with no interest in a long term goal. They were wage earners who went home after doing the basics of their job title and were happy to be employed in footy and kept making promises to keep employed instead of treading on feet and demanding excellence.

Lethlean isn't a stupid person. I really hope he can find the energy and vision and work out logical steps to achieve excellence. Another 10 years of bad administration will be hard to recover from. We have done some good stuff with the list but are about half way through and we really don't know what our current admin can do. It's pretty nerve recking but hopefully this time we have the right people in.
 
gringo2011 said:
Really interesting with Geelong how a few good operators really straightened them up. They were nearly broke, down the ladder, had the hand baggers title, seemed away from the action where no-one wanted to go and generally a small regional nothing team.

Costa, Cook, wells etc all seemed to be just the right mix of excellent operators in exactly the right areas. As clumsy and messy as GT and Butterss were they were like a second rate version of the Geelong model. Ex players with passion and an ability to sell the dream. Saw the list build as the priority and stopped trying to take short cuts after a brutal lesson and realised that you couldn't carry people who didn't care. Post GT and John Beverage we fell off a cliff in recruiting and vision. Lyon rode GT's horse until it died but no-one at the club was looking ahead and had only one goal which was win one now.

The greatest mistake we then made was to not go out and identify that as an issue and instead employed professionals with no interest in a long term goal. They were wage earners who went home after doing the basics of their job title and were happy to be employed in footy and kept making promises to keep employed instead of treading on feet and demanding excellence.

Lethlean isn't a stupid person. I really hope he can find the energy and vision and work out logical steps to achieve excellence. Another 10 years of bad administration will be hard to recover from. We have done some good stuff with the list but are about half way through and we really don't know what our current admin can do. It's pretty nerve recking but hopefully this time we have the right people in.
Click to expand...
Basset ✅
Finnis ✅

not sold on Lethlean far from it
He seems to think he is pretty good
 
gringo2011 said:
Really interesting with Geelong how a few good operators really straightened them up. They were nearly broke, down the ladder, had the hand baggers title, seemed away from the action where no-one wanted to go and generally a small regional nothing team.

Costa, Cook, wells etc all seemed to be just the right mix of excellent operators in exactly the right areas. As clumsy and messy as GT and Butterss were they were like a second rate version of the Geelong model. Ex players with passion and an ability to sell the dream. Saw the list build as the priority and stopped trying to take short cuts after a brutal lesson and realised that you couldn't carry people who didn't care. Post GT and John Beverage we fell off a cliff in recruiting and vision. Lyon rode GT's horse until it died but no-one at the club was looking ahead and had only one goal which was win one now.

The greatest mistake we then made was to not go out and identify that as an issue and instead employed professionals with no interest in a long term goal. They were wage earners who went home after doing the basics of their job title and were happy to be employed in footy and kept making promises to keep employed instead of treading on feet and demanding excellence.

Lethlean isn't a stupid person. I really hope he can find the energy and vision and work out logical steps to achieve excellence. Another 10 years of bad administration will be hard to recover from. We have done some good stuff with the list but are about half way through and we really don't know what our current admin can do. It's pretty nerve recking but hopefully this time we have the right people in.
Click to expand...

I don’t know if you have read Jim’s stuff, but you articulate a lot of points here. Particularly getting the right people on the bus, getting the wrong ones off, and getting them all in the right seats.
To me the one that doesn’t get spoken about is the Road to 2016 (I forget the year) strategy. A strategy built for appeasing fans where everything had to go perfectly to pull it off. Every draftee had to be a gun under that model and no team can do that. A strategy build on shortcuts in my opinion and during a time where external conditions made it even more unlikely, gws and gc entering the comp (if I remember correctly).
Good news is (as in the cats example) you can turn thing around but you need the right people. Leathers sounds good, hopefully the rest are too.
 

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WhiskySaint said:
I don’t know if you have read Jim’s stuff, but you articulate a lot of points here. Particularly getting the right people on the bus, getting the wrong ones off, and getting them all in the right seats.
To me the one that doesn’t get spoken about is the Road to 2016 (I forget the year) strategy. A strategy built for appeasing fans where everything had to go perfectly to pull it off. Every draftee had to be a gun under that model and no team can do that. A strategy build on shortcuts in my opinion and during a time where external conditions made it even more unlikely, gws and gc entering the comp (if I remember correctly).
Good news is (as in the cats example) you can turn thing around but you need the right people. Leathers sounds good, hopefully the rest are too.
Click to expand...


No I'm a business owner who hates reading practical books. Quite possibly why I'm not rich. That timing really was an absolutely riculous time to use that strategy. Even if it was a solid theory it didn't factor in the conditions that you were implementing it in.

Geelong will actually be an interesting watch, surely they are going to feel some pain at some point with their ability to defy gravity almost bizarre. Losing all their good operators at the same time but coming off a solid base where others should be able to replace them. They actually do replace players and their list is constantly evolving so it's not like they will lose a bunch of old guys and fall off a cliff but it's the administration that will be the interesting watch.

I think the issue for us and Carlton is that we keep trying to prop up past mistakes instead of admitting we got it wrong the first time. Richo played to win every game for the now and had no stay down for a couple of years and jump back up hard plan like others have done. He had us hang around that 9th to 16 range year after year with all our players going at 100%.

When we did finish lower we blew our picks on GOPs or busts and the compounding kept happening. GT and Butterss had Blight and Watson come in to try to create false hope after the disappointment in collapsing after making a GF in 97. They learnt their lesson from it and were publicly humiliated for their hard reset but history shows that it set us up for 10 years of competitiveness and the most sustained period of on-field excellence I have seen in my life time.

They built the list from the ground up and di all the hard yards. They learnt from buying the wrong older players and again copped heat for moving on guys like Capuano, Steve Lawrence but nailed some like Gtrain and Hammill who had some real competitiveness. GT really painted the picture of his dream and had his players played for him and the club. He had some terrible luck with injury and you always wonder what if but he is pretty unfairly maligned. Lyon worked out as a coach too and was ahead of his time but somehow luck seems to not be on our side.

Things can turn quickly, I really hope this is our one step back year and we play finals next year after good recruiting and some sensible list management decisions. Geelong, Richmond and plenty of others have had a shit year before a hard jump back up but all of them seem to get a bit of luck in drafting and list improvement. Melbourne is getting that now.
 
WhiskySaint said:
I forgot about Basset. I’ve got some colleagues (not potato ones) that know him professionally who seem to think he’s elite. Hopefully they are right!
Click to expand...

The company I work for and some of Bassett and his crew at seek joined together a while ago yo revamp the labour hire app "sidewinder". Having worked along side him, he's an absolute business whiz.
Big fan of Lethlean, hes a maverick operator, the best businesses have people like that as an integral part. It sets them apart from the rest.
Finnis is a real down to earth operator, its like ying and yang with Lethlean. It's an abnormally perfect working alliance
 
Just read the AFL on the outer article. Couple in there that i reckon could add to our 22 or depth.
McKenzie held down FB pretty well for Port last year and seems to match up ok on the bigger forwards. Think the Frawley experiment is over. Would free up Dougs to play CHB.
Fiorini could be handy midfield depth.
Not a big fan of Wallis but he plays the small forward roll pretty well. Upgrade on Kent
Moneyball picks to add depth. We need to cut some of the deadwood from our list. McKernan, Frawley, Carlisle, Alabakis, Kent, McKenzie, Hannebery
Robbo will come off the list too.

www.afl.com.au

ON THE OUTER: Why can't he get a game for your club?

Who is surprisingly out of favour with the coach at your club? Check it out
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
 
The_Snake26 said:
Just read the AFL on the outer article. Couple in there that i reckon could add to our 22 or depth.
McKenzie held down FB pretty well for Port last year and seems to match up ok on the bigger forwards. Think the Frawley experiment is over. Would free up Dougs to play CHB.
Fiorini could be handy midfield depth.
Not a big fan of Wallis but he plays the small forward roll pretty well. Upgrade on Kent
Moneyball picks to add depth. We need to cut some of the deadwood from our list. McKernan, Frawley, Carlisle, Alabakis, Kent, McKenzie, Hannebery
Robbo will come off the list too.

www.afl.com.au

ON THE OUTER: Why can't he get a game for your club?

Who is surprisingly out of favour with the coach at your club? Check it out
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
Click to expand...
We don’t need depth, we need A graders that will make some of the guys in the team now depth players.
 
The_Snake26 said:
Just read the AFL on the outer article. Couple in there that i reckon could add to our 22 or depth.
McKenzie held down FB pretty well for Port last year and seems to match up ok on the bigger forwards. Think the Frawley experiment is over. Would free up Dougs to play CHB.
Fiorini could be handy midfield depth.
Not a big fan of Wallis but he plays the small forward roll pretty well. Upgrade on Kent
Moneyball picks to add depth. We need to cut some of the deadwood from our list. McKernan, Frawley, Carlisle, Alabakis, Kent, McKenzie, Hannebery
Robbo will come off the list too.

www.afl.com.au

ON THE OUTER: Why can't he get a game for your club?

Who is surprisingly out of favour with the coach at your club? Check it out
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
Click to expand...
Hannebery is contacted for next year.
 
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