List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part II

George · Aug 24, 2021

Continued in Part III

List Mgmt. - 2021 Trade Thread - Part III

We are onto Part 3.

www.bigfooty.com

Delisted;
Oscar Clavarino
Sam Alabakis

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Dylan Roberton
Shaun McKernan
James Frawley

Current Players Out of Contract;
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

Restricted and Unrestricted Free Agency Window
Friday October 1 – Friday October 8

Trade Period
Players: Monday October 4 – Wednesday October 13
Picks: Monday October 4 – tbc (approx. Friday November 19)

List Lodgement 1
tbc (approx. Thursday October 28)

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
tbc (approx. Friday October 29 - Monday November 8)

List Lodgement 2 (Final date for primary list delistings)
tbc (approx. Tuesday November 9)

Delisted Free Agency Window 2
tbc (approx. Wednesday November 10 - Friday November 19)

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

The_Snake26 said:
I know the King family and their mother Jo sent me this pic of Ben getting used to his new colours....
*its happening*

JoKing?

The Jack · Oct 1, 2021

Hubnester said:
Hi guys,

This thread will always get a bit wild in while we're waiting for trade period to start and some news to come out.
In the meantime people will share their opinions on the list or players, but the normal forum rules will apply.

1. If you see a post that you feel breaches the rules, report it.
2. If you have a problem with a particular poster, you can Ignore them so you don't see their posts.
3. Posts calling out specific users contribute nothing except starting arguments and taking the thread off-topic. Don't do this.

Thanks,

So no more Norks v Norgs discussion then I assume.

Ephemeral Hope · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
I guess it's a difference of perception then. I see us as a pretty mediocre list with not much top end that play with a bit of spirit. If we can play good team footy we can beat most sides. That said we are vulnerable to sides that can come at us and hit our weaknesses. We definitely seem to get mentally overwhelmed when there is a chance to progress though.

I think the mid season change was a few things, we brought in Dunny over kids who was able to play at a higher level immediately and changed for a slow kick mark build up style to a more frenetic run and carry game. It seemed to make the footy more fun and hid a lot of the weaknesses in our skills and application.

I think any list can look top notch on its day. If everyone in the 22 plays at 100% of their ability while a better opposition is cruising at 70% the underdog wins. What makes a good team over a mediocre one is the team's 50% performance. When our players play at their average we lose to a lot of other teams. The top teams can have off days and still be equal to the lesser ones and say in a grand final a mediocre list played to the best of their ability and the premium team played to the best of their ability, the better team wins.

I think for a lot of our list, they need to be playing to almost their peak just to keep up with some of the better players in the league. Low ceilings.

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

aussierulesrules said:
What about during the period where we kicked 5 goals to none in about half a quarter (from the 25 minute mark of the 1st quarter, to the 11 minute mark of the 2nd), to go out to a 39-23 lead?

They didn’t kick a goal for almost a full quarter. Kicking just two behinds (and one rushed) from the 21 min mark of the first to the 19 min mark of the 2nd.

Then Kossie Pickett sparked them to life with a few bits of brilliance and we stopped like we were shot and forgot how to kick a football to someone in a similar outfit.

Their changes from that game to the GF were:

Out: Tomlinson Jones Jordan Hunt Jetta
In: Brown Harmes Hibberd Bowey Petty

While for that match we didn’t have any of the following:

Ryder Marshall Crouch Hannebery Paton Sharman McKenzie Geary Byrnes

I can't remember details only that I never felt like we were in the game. The whole vibe of that match was weird. It felt really eerie and that they were playing much better but not getting the reward for it.

No-one remembers how Melbourne missed finals for a couple of years on the back of injury or how Essendon spent about 4 seasons struggling to field their best side. Melbourne were a much better side than us that night from my memory of it.

puppy_dog7 · Oct 1, 2021

Veer Right said:
Really going to go here? Cherry picking at it's finest!

Crouch played 20 games this year with seven games under 25 disposals. Steele played 22 games with five games under 25 disposals.

17 disp with 5 clangers round 19
21 disp with 9 clangers round 10
18 disp with 5 clangers round 6
15 disp with 4 clangers round 3

Gresham 2020 played 11 games with seven of those under 19 disposals. Steele played 19 games with three games under 21 disposals.

10 disp - 3 clangers - round 4
13 disp - 4 clangers - round 5
17 disp - 6 clangers - round 6

Dunstan played 12 games this year with three games under 25 disposals. Steele played 22 games with five games under 25 disposals.

16 disp - 5 clangers - round 5
18 disp - 4 clangers - round 19
20 disp - 8 clangers - round 22

Steele 2021 disposal efficiency 70.7 averaging 29.1 disposals
Crouch 2021 disposal efficiency 65.5 averaging 26.4 disposals
Dunstan 2021 disposal efficiency 66.0 averaging 25.2 disposals

Steele 2020 disposal efficiency 71.0 averaging 21.9 disposals
Gresham 2020 disposal efficiency 58.8 averaging 17.6 disposals

According to the nuffie brigade, Greshams an A grader, Crouch gets a pass, Dunstan is a spud while Steele is an AA champion.

Bytel and Clarke get a pass due to age, games played. Ross no point, he's barely AFL standard.

This is akin to the 2014 draft thread on this forum if anyone wants to search for it. The jumping for joy when we took McCartin first.... lol and wow. Me sad face, just reading it!

For one. You’re using disposal efficiency not kicking efficiency.

Dunstan: Kicking efficiency of 51%
Steele: Kicking efficiency of 61%
Crouch: Kicking efficiency of 50%
Gresh: Kicking efficiency of 62%

Also Basically unless you turn the ball over, a kick that travels over 40m I think is classed as effective. So when Dunstan is bombing it 50m to know one, it’s classed as an effective kick.
IIRC he averaged over 100 more meters gained out than Crouch which shows that.

1. He’s just bombing the ball too often and not giving it to better ball users.
2. He doesn’t play within his limitations.

My biggest gripe with him is burning a better user by foot only to shank the kick or bomb it to the disadvantage of the forwards. At least crouch looks to give the handball first.

bird_man · Oct 1, 2021

Sun Ra said:
Also Dunstan shouldn't have been dropped last round - that was, to put it mildly, a harsh call on him.

I'd say we already knew he was going, so why not choose to get a game into a kid rather than someone who won't be here next year?

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

Joffaboy said:
So it was really nothing much according to you and everyone has been a disappointment. Where was Rors wrong a FRDP and junk for 5 first 22 quality players.

Oh the great failure Hill was 5th in the B&F, yeah really bad.

Do you think Hill would be worth what we paid if we traded him tomorrow? Would you do the same trade in hindsight? I wouldn't.

It will come down to how our players develop compared to the kids that we missed. It was a lot of moving pieces and we got a lot done with a little but that can be good or bad.... but it will be measured against what we gave up and what we brought in. It's not that shocking a concept.

Ephemeral Hope · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
I can't remember details only that I never felt like we were in the game. The whole vibe of that match was weird. It felt really eerie and that they were playing much better but not getting the reward for it.

No-one remembers how Melbourne missed finals for a couple of years on the back of injury or how Essendon spent about 4 seasons struggling to field their best side. Melbourne were a much better side than us that night from my memory of it.

Once again I'm so glad that Melbourne won the grand final. I do indeed remember Melbourne missing finals and I thought that losing to them meant we were a shit team. In hindsight we had one of the best losing margins to the premiers this year

George · Oct 1, 2021

BrutThough said:
I know Brownlow votes are meaningless, but it seems remarkable that someone can get 11 votes and not be on a senior list the following year.

Tell me about it

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

Captain Paddy said:
Dunstan is so good that GC are considering him for a rookie spot lol

He's had a shit career so anyone taking him is basing it on his existing club dumping him after 11 weeks of good footy. I can see why his value is shit. That's not my argument though. I'm saying he would have been worth keeping listed. It has gone beyond that though and he doesn't want to stay. He might revert to type so you wouldn't want to pay up much for him but his 11 games this year were his best footy and of a very high standard.

George · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
JoKing?

I can back his story up, Max's father Wayne confirmed it to me the other night.

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

saintsmania said:
Ross hasn't signed yet..if he does not sign in the next week I think he might be the steak knives in another deal

He's a FA so can't be tied to anything. I think someone has probably told him to wait until they move some pieces around to see if they can fit him in. A lot of clubs have tight caps and nowhere to go unless they have their own players move.

Bill Mohr · Oct 1, 2021

Sun Ra said:
Also Dunstan shouldn't have been dropped last round - that was, to put it mildly, a harsh call on him.

His card was marked before that.

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

Grav said:
Well said & as for yipper & his comments at least gringo2011 is telling it how he sees it & does it regularly. Love him or hate him, he is our gringo2011so don’t come on here & start potting him. We have experts on here that are fully trained to do that. Deep down We All ❤Gringo

I didn't even get to see the fire I started but thanks guys.

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

BrutThough said:
I know Brownlow votes are meaningless, but it seems remarkable that someone can get 11 votes and not be on a senior list the following year.

I rate coaches votes higher and he was out in second place by a mile of 11 games. That's a rich vein of form. It would be insane if he's out of footy after that.

Joffaboy · Oct 1, 2021

Rors said:
Pick 11 or GTFO

Pick 11 or we trade him to Hawthorn

puppy_dog7 · Oct 1, 2021

Sun Ra said:
Also Dunstan shouldn't have been dropped last round - that was, to put it mildly, a harsh call on him.

And yet that freo game was arguably the best we played as a team all year.
But Dunstan didn’t play?

Veer Right · Oct 1, 2021

puppy_dog7 said:
For one. You’re using disposal efficiency not kicking efficiency.

Dunstan: Kicking efficiency of 51%
Steele: Kicking efficiency of 61%
Crouch: Kicking efficiency of 50%
Gresh: Kicking efficiency of 62%

Also Basically unless you turn the ball over, a kick that travels over 40m I think is classed as effective. So when Dunstan is bombing it 50m to know one, it’s classed as an effective kick.
IIRC he averaged over 100 more meters gained out than Crouch which shows that.

1. He’s just bombing the ball too often and not giving it to better ball users.
2. He doesn’t play within his limitations.

My biggest gripe with him is burning a better user by foot only to shank the kick or bomb it to the disadvantage of the forwards. At least crouch looks to give the handball first.

Crouch and Dunstan from my own vision, there was barely anything between them but maybe i wasn't looking closely enough? The one area that stood out was Dunstans ability to stand up to bigger bodies while i would frequently see Jones and Crouch pushed around and man handled. This to a good degree ceased when Dunstan came into the team as he was giving it back at the stoppages.

I do fear what will happen in this space next year when it's just Steele and only Steele.

As for his kicking it long, i am neither here, nor there, as those kicks generally ended up as a forward stoppage for us which is fine by me. Is Crouch a better user? Yes he is but he also takes the safe option far more often.

Mowman · Oct 1, 2021

Grav said:
Well said & as for yipper & his comments at least gringo2011 is telling it how he sees it & does it regularly. Love him or hate him, he is our gringo2011so don’t come on here & start potting him. We have experts on here that are fully trained to do that. Deep down We All ❤Gringo

Well said and couldn't agree more
Love reading his stuff and main reason I'm still on here
I like all his post just ask P66

gringo2011 · Oct 1, 2021

FootyMaster11 said:
One thing that annoys me quite a bit, is how biased/clueless the media can be, especially when it comes to St Kilda. I think it was on trade radio how they were saying how good Dunstan was this year, and that Brad crouch was just serviceable, and that it wasn't really a good "Trade" (we didn't even trade for him!). Dunstan played majority of the time in the Centre as was unable to play anywhere else, Crouch got pushed out to the Half Forward as a result, yet if you look at the stats of the players, Crouch was statistically better in key areas such as disposals and tackles, and wasn't too far behind in Clearances and inside 50's, even though he wasn't playing in the middle for anywhere near as much as Dunstan was. Also proves that Crouch is arguably a far better 2 way runner, as nearly doubled Dunstan's rebound 50's per game, showing that he works back to help support the defenders.

Crouch
View attachment 1250376

Dunstan
View attachment 1250377

I think Crouch plays a lower impact style. He's also had better past form which he isn't got back too.

Ephemeral Hope · Oct 1, 2021

Veer Right said:
Crouch and Dunstan from my own vision, there was barely anything between them but maybe i wasn't looking closely enough? The one area that stood out was Dunstans ability to stand up to bigger bodies while i would frequently see Jones and Crouch pushed around and man handled. This to a good degree ceased when Dunstan came into the team as he was giving it back at the stoppages.

I do fear what will happen in this space next year when it's just Steele and only Steele.

As for his kicking it long, i am neither here, nor there, as those kicks generally ended up as a forward stoppage for us which is fine by me. Is Crouch a better user? Yes he is but he also takes the safe option far more often.

The kick it long debate is such a funny one. When we lose we bemoan the stupid midfielders for always kicking it long and when we win it’s Ratten making a genius move to eschew “being too smart for our own good” game plan and opting to keep it simple and kick it long and force a stoppage.

Joffaboy · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
Do you think Hill would be worth what we paid if we traded him tomorrow? Would you do the same trade in hindsight? I wouldn't.

It will come down to how our players develop compared to the kids that we missed. It was a lot of moving pieces and we got a lot done with a little but that can be good or bad.... but it will be measured against what we gave up and what we brought in. It's not that shocking a concept.

5th in the B&F or was in some sort of conspiracy by the coaches to make him look good? Also got Brownlow votes which for some reason now conveniently shows the worth of a player with some.

Bloody hell, I look at the trading of the club on the whole. We had been a moribund MoR mediocre team for most of a decade, the recruiting team brings in Ryder, Howard, Jones, Hill, and Butler for 6 &59 and some junk futures losing Bruce (who is a pretty GOP AFL player) and a shot Steven and Acres.

Look at those players, an AA tap ruckman, a Key Backman, a quick mid, a very quick triple premiership player Wingman/HBF'er with a huge tank and a hard tackling goal kicking small forward, all first 22, Howard consistant and very good, Butler nearly AA last season and while down was the best small defender in the comp this year, paddy, we thought two year but we will get a bonus third, Jones, injured a lot unfortunately but when there is very important with centre clearances and has so real toe and grunt and Hill, who has not been the match winner some expected but his second year has been much more consistent culminating in a top 5 B&F, not bad for a bust.

I would take them all again, and I would take Crouch and Higgins as well.

Still others want us to stay MoR and keep mediocre players like Acres, Newnes and Dunstan

Bill Mohr · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
I rate coaches votes higher and he was out in second place by a mile of 11 games. That's a rich vein of form. It would be insane if he's out of footy after that.

I dont agree with the brownlow votes being meaningless. The top 5 players in the brownlow this year were basically the best midfielders in the game. All won awards in other AFL competitions including JS. Dunstan got the votes in those particular games because he was BOG or top 3, he deserved them. Posters seem to be implying that he didnt deserve the votes yet the better players did. The umpires were basically right , give or take a few blunders which everyone in any job makes.

SaintsSeptember · Oct 1, 2021

Ephemeral Hope said:
The kick it long debate is such a funny one. When we lose we bemoan the stupid midfielders for always kicking it long and when we win it’s Ratten making a genius move to eschew “being too smart for our own good” game plan and opting to keep it simple and kick it long and force a stoppage.

Kicking it long works fine ( when Sharman is within 30m of the dropzone ) .

Saint_Dos · Oct 1, 2021

gringo2011 said:
He's a FA so can't be tied to anything. I think someone has probably told him to wait until they move some pieces around to see if they can fit him in. A lot of clubs have tight caps and nowhere to go unless they have their own players move.

He can if a club is already losing a FA such as Adelaide, Sydney and Richmond it seems.
Some of those clubs may be waiting to see if they receive anything or what value it is before they are happy to sign him.
Best case scenario is that someone like Richmond want him to come in but dont want to lose Chol compensation.
Problem is we would need Chol compo to be an end of 2nd rounder (or better) for them to want to deal with us otherwise they would be better off losing their compo given how many early picks they have.
If it was an end of 2nd then we may be able to sneak 48 or 53 from them but dont see either of those happening.

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