Play Nice 2022 Non AFL Crowds/Ratings/Finance/Development thread

[Kwality]

Interesting you say that, I was discussing with a mate that Irish football is the biggest sport in the country yet they don't pay their players so must be absolutely loaded. Was also questioning what the hell they do with all the money. Then I found this article, how the hell does it make such little revenue?

So this is exactly what the GAA does with all their money

OF all the criticisms directed against the GAA, the most consistent one concerns money. The general theme of the sniping is 'What does the GAA do with all that money anyway?' When a referee plays several minutes of additional time in a big championship game and then blows the whistle immediately...

www.independent.ie

Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland), which covers five-sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. As of 2022, the population of the entire island is just over 7 million, with 5.1 million living in the Republic of Ireland and 1.9 million in Northern Ireland

Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rob]

Interesting you say that, I was discussing with a mate that Irish football is the biggest sport in the country yet they don't pay their players so must be absolutely loaded. Was also questioning what the hell they do with all the money. Then I found this article, how the hell does it make such little revenue?

So this is exactly what the GAA does with all their money

OF all the criticisms directed against the GAA, the most consistent one concerns money. The general theme of the sniping is 'What does the GAA do with all that money anyway?' When a referee plays several minutes of additional time in a big championship game and then blows the whistle immediately...

www.independent.ie

That article was 21 years ago, although I doubt things have changed that much.

But from my own research, it seems like they're simply not very good at monetising their product. There's a reason why the AFL has scrapped all the side competitions, i.e Origin and pre-season cup. They have one product, market it very very well and TV pays big for it.
The GAA have multiple products across multiple sports. They have an 7 round football league, but also have the provincial stuff afterwards and a bunch of smaller fry leagues. For a country of 7 million, it fragments the market and I suspect they're not really left with a product that TV stations will pay all that much for. But I guess the traditions surrounding the games mean that they are extremely reluctant to change things. A bit like cricket in Australia 50 years ago.

 

[Bjo187]

Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland), which covers five-sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. As of 2022, the population of the entire island is just over 7 million, with 5.1 million living in the Republic of Ireland and 1.9 million in Northern Ireland

Ireland - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What's the point here? Are you comparing population size.

 

[Kwality]

That article was 21 years ago, although I doubt things have changed that much.

But from my own research, it seems like they're simply not very good at monetising their product. There's a reason why the AFL has scrapped all the side competitions, i.e Origin and pre-season cup. They have one product, market it very very well and TV pays big for it.
The GAA have multiple products across multiple sports. They have an 7 round football league, but also have the provincial stuff afterwards and a bunch of smaller fry leagues. For a country of 7 million, it fragments the market and I suspect they're not really left with a product that TV stations will pay all that much for. But I guess the traditions surrounding the games mean that they are extremely reluctant to change things. A bit like cricket in Australia 50 years ago.

32 counties all with a team sounds a bit like the number of teams in the State League that has morphed in the AFL.
Interesting discussion. Cant find anything on the TV deal.

 

[Kwality]

What's the point here? Are you comparing population size.

I tried (unsuccessfully I see) to direct you to the Sports link in the site.

 

[RedV3x]

That article was 21 years ago, although I doubt things have changed that much.

But from my own research, it seems like they're simply not very good at monetising their product. There's a reason why the AFL has scrapped all the side competitions, i.e Origin and pre-season cup. They have one product, market it very very well and TV pays big for it.
The GAA have multiple products across multiple sports. They have an 7 round football league, but also have the provincial stuff afterwards and a bunch of smaller fry leagues. For a country of 7 million, it fragments the market and I suspect they're not really left with a product that TV stations will pay all that much for. But I guess the traditions surrounding the games mean that they are extremely reluctant to change things. A bit like cricket in Australia 50 years ago.

i planned a long stay in Ireland near Dublin so I looked at the GAA schedule to see what was available to watch.
It was so confusing with a lot going on. it's not like the AFL with a national league, state leagues, country, amateur, community etc.
It was just one long list of matches with different titles including age groups, inter-country, intra-county, championship etc.

 

[Rob]

32 counties all with a team sounds a bit like the number of teams in the State League that has morphed in the AFL.
Interesting discussion. Cant find anything on the TV deal.

It's hard to find, but in 2019, the GAA's total media and sponsorship revenue was just 20m euros, so roughly $30m.

Toyota alone pays the AFL about $20m a year. And that's just 1 sponsor, and the GAA covers 3 sports. Add TV rights income and it's like comparing Microsoft to some kid in a basement coming up with a mildly successful app.

The 2 organisations are as far apart as they could possibly be. Financially anyway.

 

[Bjo187]

It's hard to find, but in 2019, the GAA's total media and sponsorship revenue was just 20m euros, so roughly $30m.

Toyota alone pays the AFL about $20m a year. And that's just 1 sponsor, and the GAA covers 3 sports. Add TV rights income and it's like comparing Microsoft to some kid in a basement coming up with a mildly successful app.

The 2 organisations are as far apart as they could possibly be. Financially anyway.

Yep it's amazing how little money they make, imagine they had to pay the players a reasonable amount, they'd be in debt. The figures are hard to believe to be honest.

 

[Kwality]

It's hard to find, but in 2019, the GAA's total media and sponsorship revenue was just 20m euros, so roughly $30m.

Toyota alone pays the AFL about $20m a year. And that's just 1 sponsor, and the GAA covers 3 sports. Add TV rights income and it's like comparing Microsoft to some kid in a basement coming up with a mildly successful app.

The 2 organisations are as far apart as they could possibly be. Financially anyway.

Changes are afoot for the comp in 2023:

All-Ireland Senior Football Championship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'In 2023 the format of the championship will again be altered. Under this system, approved at a Special Congress of the GAA in February 2022, the results in the National Football League (held in January through to March of each year) will have an impact on a counties progression in the championship. After the conclusion of the four provincial championships, whose structures remain unaltered, there will be a round-robin competition for 16 teams, split evenly into four ........'

More detail in the link.

 

[The_Wookie]

It's hard to find, but in 2019, the GAA's total media and sponsorship revenue was just 20m euros, so roughly $30m.

Toyota alone pays the AFL about $20m a year. And that's just 1 sponsor, and the GAA covers 3 sports. Add TV rights income and it's like comparing Microsoft to some kid in a basement coming up with a mildly successful app.

The 2 organisations are as far apart as they could possibly be. Financially anyway.

The GAA’s previous broadcasting rights deal is worth €14.5m per annum. They signed a new one with the BBC in October. Ive been unable to find the value of that.

Amazon emerges as contender for GAA broadcasting rights

The GAA received fierce criticism for bringing Sky Sports on board as a broadcasting partner in 2014

www.irishmirror.ie

GAA Broadcast Statement 2023-2027

The GAA is pleased to announce its live, highlights and on-demand media rights arrangements for the next five years (2023-27 seasons inclusive) after the conclusion of negotiations with its television, streaming and radio partners in recent weeks. Following the successful expansion of GAAGO’s...

www.gaa.ie

 

[Kwality]

The GAA’s previous broadcasting rights deal is worth €14.5m per annum. They signed a new one with the BBC in October. Ive been unable to find the value of that.

Amazon emerges as contender for GAA broadcasting rights

The GAA received fierce criticism for bringing Sky Sports on board as a broadcasting partner in 2014

www.irishmirror.ie

GAA Broadcast Statement 2023-2027

The GAA is pleased to announce its live, highlights and on-demand media rights arrangements for the next five years (2023-27 seasons inclusive) after the conclusion of negotiations with its television, streaming and radio partners in recent weeks. Following the successful expansion of GAAGO’s...

www.gaa.ie

Led me to this:GAA Reveals Media Rights Deal Through 2027 - Sport for Business.

Too many games I'd say, more like the Foxtel Cup than the AFL that pulls the dollars here.

 

[Rob]

Yep it's amazing how little money they make, imagine they had to pay the players a reasonable amount, they'd be in debt. The figures are hard to believe to be honest.

Yeah, a little bit. I'm going off a couple of RTE articles so I assume they're correct.

The thing about TV rights is that the higher the numbers of each event the dollars go up exponentially. If you have a sport that rates a fifth of another one then your rights income is highly unlikely to be anywhere near a fifth. eg. an AFL game that rates 800k is worth a lot because they win the night. An AFLW game that rates 100k is worth nothing to a FTA network, because they can get exactly the same numbers screening old filler that costs them nothing to acquire.

GAA is split so many ways with so many teams in multiple sports that I reckon TV places no value on most games, so overall the rights are only worth the big games at the end of the year that get a decent audience. I was reading an article about how games on Sky (who no longer have the rights) between smaller counties were getting audiences of 2,000. That's not even worth the production costs, let alone any rights premium.

In all honesty they probably need someone like Packer to come in and create a 6 or 8 team super league. But knowing the history and traditions of the GAA I doubt it's going to happen.

 

[weewilly]

No big bounce for the A League post the Socceroos WC involvement! An average of under 6000.
�

RESULTS
11/12/22	A-League: Melbourne Victory d Macarthur FC	3,312	Campbelltown Stadium
11/12/22	A-League: Newcastle Jets d Central Coast Mariners	7,078	Industree Group Stadium
10/12/22	A-League: Sydney FC d Melbourne City	14,949	Allianz Stadium
10/12/22	A-League: Perth Glory d Western United	3,893	Macedonia Park
10/12/22	A-League: Wellington Phoenix dr Western Sydney Wanderers	2,502	WIN Stadium
09/12/22	A-League: Brisbane Roar dr Adelaide United	4,258	Kayo Stadium

 

[Bjo187]

DATE	EVENT	STADIUM	CROWD
10/12/22	NBL: Melbourne United v Brisbane Bullets	John Cain Arena	5,788
10/12/22	A-League: Sydney FC v Melbourne City	Allianz Stadium	14,949
10/12/22	A-League: Perth Glory v Western United	Macedonia Park	3,893
10/12/22	A-League: Wellington Phoenix v Western Sydney Wanderers	WIN Stadium	2,502

The sleeping giant has been awoken.

 

[RedV3x]

In all honesty they probably need someone like Packer to come in and create a 6 or 8 team super league. But knowing the history and traditions of the GAA I doubt it's going to happen.

Maybe a national comp with promotion and relegation.

 

[jatz14]

Maybe a national comp with promotion and relegation.

I think a promotion relegation system is part of the problem.

Isn't it the case, you at for your local county, and if that team does well, you can end up in the all Ireland's.

So play local, progress up if you do well.

If all teams pull support from their local county, it's hard to build big clubs.

If small counties progress, they don't have drawing power. However, everyone is addicted to the romantic notion of the little county being able to fight it's way up.

So the comp as a whole is a bit like a local comp.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[RedV3x]

Isn't it the case, you at for your local county, and if that team does well, you can end up in the all Ireland's.

Yes, by winning the odd championship game.
Promotion and relegation would mean doing it regularly to advance.

 

[Kwality]

Maybe a national comp with promotion and relegation.

An elite level is a must to pull the crowds/tv ratings/media rights $s.

I see there are 4 of the 32 teams in Dublin.

 

[Kwality]

Yeah, a little bit. I'm going off a couple of RTE articles so I assume they're correct.

The thing about TV rights is that the higher the numbers of each event the dollars go up exponentially. If you have a sport that rates a fifth of another one then your rights income is highly unlikely to be anywhere near a fifth. eg. an AFL game that rates 800k is worth a lot because they win the night. An AFLW game that rates 100k is worth nothing to a FTA network, because they can get exactly the same numbers screening old filler that costs them nothing to acquire.

GAA is split so many ways with so many teams in multiple sports that I reckon TV places no value on most games, so overall the rights are only worth the big games at the end of the year that get a decent audience. I was reading an article about how games on Sky (who no longer have the rights) between smaller counties were getting audiences of 2,000. That's not even worth the production costs, let alone any rights premium.

In all honesty they probably need someone like Packer to come in and create a 6 or 8 team super league. But knowing the history and traditions of the GAA I doubt it's going to happen.

John Elliot was an early mover in our game going national :

Rebellion in the Ranks - The Story of the VFL Breakaway that almost was - Sports Industry AU

In 1984, John Elliot was concerned. As the Carlton delegate to the VFL all he could see was delegates interested in how things affected their individual clubs. He was dismayed at the overall lack of direction for the VFL itself. Nothing of value was done during the delegate meetings, deals were...

www.footyindustry.com

Self interest by one of the more powerful clubs in the land was the motivation.

 

[weewilly]

The ALeague shoot themselves in the foot again with the Sydneycentric administration favouring Sydney again!
This is just the NSW government trying to justify spending $800 million dollars on a new stadium that is no bigger than the one they pulled down!

I reckon a Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane GF would go down a treat in Sydney and get a huge crowd!

‘Build a tradition’: A-League risks fan anger by selling grand finals to Sydney​

ByVince Rugari​

December 12, 2022 — 7.40am

The A-League has risked the ire of fans from other states by controversially locking in Sydney as the host city for the next three men’s and women’s grand finals as part of a landmark deal with the NSW government.
Football in Australia has long stood apart from the other codes by allowing the highest-placing teams to earn the right to host the A-League Men’s decider, which has been taken to all five major capital cities in the competition’s almost two-decade history.
But the Australian Premier Leagues have traded away this national reach for a fixed-term contract worth a reported eight-figure fee with Destination NSW, the state government’s lead tourism arm, which will run through to the end of 2025.
It means at least until then, the A-Leagues will fall in line with the AFL, who play their grand final at the MCG every year, the NRL, who have traditionally done the same at Accor Stadium but are threatening to take it elsewhere after a dispute with the NSW government over stadium funding, and Super Netball, who recently signed a similar with Visit Victoria.

APL chief executive Danny Townsend insists supporters will get the “best of both worlds” in being able to watch Socceroos stars week-in, week-out while also looking forward to a grand final at a fixed location - but there is little doubt the decision will anger those outside of NSW, especially given the current cost of interstate air travel, as well as those inside the state who have favoured the A-League’s egalitarian approach and national spread.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

A good result but far from incredible.


Look at the "progress" from the previous "incredible" Socceroos success.

We have to read this sort of crap every four years.
Those who know their soccer know that the socceroos were just ok, played to the level of a middling national team, and in a one-off soccer game that can be enough to get you a result against superior opposition.
Play again next week and the result is reversed.
Play again next week, and the opposition is probably scoring a lucky goal from a deflection.
That's soccer.
Don't get too excited by the implications for the domestic league.
It means nothing.
Look at last night's piddly crowd for the first A-League game in about 4 weeks.
Look at Wookie's internet traffic figures, showing the A-League struggling to keep up with Womens AFL (actually, that's not just the A-League - that's all soccer).

I think both of you are mistaking me for someone who gives a schitte about soccer!

 

[BobbyMorri]

The ALeague shoot themselves in the foot again with the Sydneycentric administration favouring Sydney again!
This is just the NSW government trying to justify spending $800 million dollars on a new stadium that is no bigger than the one they pulled down!

I reckon a Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane GF would go down a treat in Sydney and get a huge crowd!

‘Build a tradition’: A-League risks fan anger by selling grand finals to Sydney​

ByVince Rugari​

December 12, 2022 — 7.40am

The A-League has risked the ire of fans from other states by controversially locking in Sydney as the host city for the next three men’s and women’s grand finals as part of a landmark deal with the NSW government.
Football in Australia has long stood apart from the other codes by allowing the highest-placing teams to earn the right to host the A-League Men’s decider, which has been taken to all five major capital cities in the competition’s almost two-decade history.
But the Australian Premier Leagues have traded away this national reach for a fixed-term contract worth a reported eight-figure fee with Destination NSW, the state government’s lead tourism arm, which will run through to the end of 2025.
It means at least until then, the A-Leagues will fall in line with the AFL, who play their grand final at the MCG every year, the NRL, who have traditionally done the same at Accor Stadium but are threatening to take it elsewhere after a dispute with the NSW government over stadium funding, and Super Netball, who recently signed a similar with Visit Victoria.

APL chief executive Danny Townsend insists supporters will get the “best of both worlds” in being able to watch Socceroos stars week-in, week-out while also looking forward to a grand final at a fixed location - but there is little doubt the decision will anger those outside of NSW, especially given the current cost of interstate air travel, as well as those inside the state who have favoured the A-League’s egalitarian approach and national spread.

You have been posting a lot of things I disagree with, but here you are spot on.

Typical Aussie soccer. one step forward, which only gives you room to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[jatz14]

Yes, by winning the odd championship game.
Promotion and relegation would mean doing it regularly to advance.

I suspect that just consolidates the problem.

I don't think it works for the AFL for instance.

Second tier clubs need a lot more money to be capable of moving up successfully, but it's only the top maybe two thirds of AFL clubs that generate the vast bulk of Aussie rules cash.

They would need to divert a lot of it downwards to make a promotable second tier realistic.

But if you then introduce Subiaco v Collingwood, Glenelg v Carlton into the mix, I suspect the AFL TV value stars dropping.

Gold Coast v Swan Districts, what's that game worth?

Even in the EPL, pro rel is largely a sham, for the same reason.

Scampaignerhorpe is never going to be an EPL stalwart. They don't generate the revenue.
If the EPL enabled clubs like them to receive sufficient money to get to and be prominent in the EPL, it would start hitting the league's earning power.

The entire structure is designed to funnel money to the big clubs that they need to stay in the EPL.

The size of soccer and it's prominence in Europe let's them get away with it, there are naturally a lot of mid sized clubs that can fill the cannon fodder role in the EPL for a handful of years at a time, with the occasional Cinderella story.

This isn't true of footy, or Australian soccer, or Gaelic.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Kwality]

The ALeague shoot themselves in the foot again with the Sydneycentric administration favouring Sydney again!
This is just the NSW government trying to justify spending $800 million dollars on a new stadium that is no bigger than the one they pulled down!

I reckon a Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane GF would go down a treat in Sydney and get a huge crowd!

‘Build a tradition’: A-League risks fan anger by selling grand finals to Sydney​

ByVince Rugari​

December 12, 2022 — 7.40am

The A-League has risked the ire of fans from other states by controversially locking in Sydney as the host city for the next three men’s and women’s grand finals as part of a landmark deal with the NSW government.
Football in Australia has long stood apart from the other codes by allowing the highest-placing teams to earn the right to host the A-League Men’s decider, which has been taken to all five major capital cities in the competition’s almost two-decade history.
But the Australian Premier Leagues have traded away this national reach for a fixed-term contract worth a reported eight-figure fee with Destination NSW, the state government’s lead tourism arm, which will run through to the end of 2025.
It means at least until then, the A-Leagues will fall in line with the AFL, who play their grand final at the MCG every year, the NRL, who have traditionally done the same at Accor Stadium but are threatening to take it elsewhere after a dispute with the NSW government over stadium funding, and Super Netball, who recently signed a similar with Visit Victoria.

APL chief executive Danny Townsend insists supporters will get the “best of both worlds” in being able to watch Socceroos stars week-in, week-out while also looking forward to a grand final at a fixed location - but there is little doubt the decision will anger those outside of NSW, especially given the current cost of interstate air travel, as well as those inside the state who have favoured the A-League’s egalitarian approach and national spread.

The sentiment is no different to the AFL.

 

[Rob]

The ALeague shoot themselves in the foot again with the Sydneycentric administration favouring Sydney again!
This is just the NSW government trying to justify spending $800 million dollars on a new stadium that is no bigger than the one they pulled down!

I reckon a Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane GF would go down a treat in Sydney and get a huge crowd!

‘Build a tradition’: A-League risks fan anger by selling grand finals to Sydney​

ByVince Rugari​

December 12, 2022 — 7.40am

The A-League has risked the ire of fans from other states by controversially locking in Sydney as the host city for the next three men’s and women’s grand finals as part of a landmark deal with the NSW government.
Football in Australia has long stood apart from the other codes by allowing the highest-placing teams to earn the right to host the A-League Men’s decider, which has been taken to all five major capital cities in the competition’s almost two-decade history.
But the Australian Premier Leagues have traded away this national reach for a fixed-term contract worth a reported eight-figure fee with Destination NSW, the state government’s lead tourism arm, which will run through to the end of 2025.
It means at least until then, the A-Leagues will fall in line with the AFL, who play their grand final at the MCG every year, the NRL, who have traditionally done the same at Accor Stadium but are threatening to take it elsewhere after a dispute with the NSW government over stadium funding, and Super Netball, who recently signed a similar with Visit Victoria.

APL chief executive Danny Townsend insists supporters will get the “best of both worlds” in being able to watch Socceroos stars week-in, week-out while also looking forward to a grand final at a fixed location - but there is little doubt the decision will anger those outside of NSW, especially given the current cost of interstate air travel, as well as those inside the state who have favoured the A-League’s egalitarian approach and national spread.

Jesus....if there's no Sydney team then it's going to be a disaster. Probably shows how desperate they are for money.