List Mgmt. 2023 List Management and Trading (Part 2)

[PeterSalt]

Do you have a link to the article? I can't find anything on Google or the AFL website. Not doubting you, just trying to find the article you referenced.

From the article below:

"For instance, it would have allowed Adelaide to list one of Rory Sloane or Taylor Walker as a veteran for 2024 and opened up another spot on their primary list. The idea was designed to keep veterans in the game without sacrificing a list spot that a youngster may have taken, with the veteran’s full payments still counted in the salary cap."

Roos target pick one, Dee to go on, big Dog to stay

Check out all the latest trade news from around the League

www.afl.com.au

There's a link in the post above

 

[Mostyn]

I'm 50/50 on getting a developing ruck this draft.

Our picks seem early for a ruck, but I guess that could shuffle and change.

I'm also unsure of whether there's much point. There seems to be almost no correlation between having a good ruckman and having team success.

O'Brien is at best a B-, but was Darcy Cameron

14

Darcy Cameron

Age

30

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.0

1star

K

3.3

1star

HB

2.7

2star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

HO

3.5

5star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.3

2star

HB

2.7

3star

CL

0.3

2star

HO

5.3

5star

and the Big O much better? Or are they just surrounded by better players?

 

[George CantStandYa]

Are they duds because they were never a chance of success, or duds because we couldn't develop them?

Just duds. They’ve gone to have no career elsewhere. We went for cheap options and got what we paid for

 

[D Style]

It's a risk ....as one is not always available when it suits us .....and will they want to come to ADEL

Take the home grown product .....no risk, and develop them to your style

Do you want to end up like PORT taking players like Sweet and Soldo

Port traded in Soldo because of his Mrs ...

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Port traded in Soldo because of his Mrs ...

OR ...because they couldn't persuade Grundy to come to ADEL

 

[George CantStandYa]

I'm 50/50 on getting a developing ruck this draft.

Our picks seem early for a ruck, but I guess that could shuffle and change.

I'm also unsure of whether there's much point. There seems to be almost no correlation between having a good ruckman and having team success.

O'Brien is at best a B-, but was Darcy Cameron and the Big O much better? Or are they just surrounded by better players?

Our pick 20 will be closer to 30, it’s not a deep draft so if that turns out to be a young ruck prospect it’s not that much to pay. Gawn and Darcy were drafted in the 30s. A ruckman of their quality makes our side better, it just does.

We’ve been smashed out of the middle in games because ROB has been uncompetitive. Port even with their A grade midfield, when Lycett went down they weren’t as effective.

It can’t hurt to have quality players everywhere and given we have spent ZERO on a ruck in recent years with draft pick around 30 when there’s a promising SA talent you just go for it, there’s low risk of losing them once they’ve developed.

Plus those other sides without elite rucks have had elite midfields, which we don’t have, we need a decent ruck to help.

 

[Jarman3]

I think the issue is that players need genuine game time in the Ruck to develop whether that's in the 1s or 2s.

We found when he had Hunter and Strachan in the 2s, unless they can play somewhere else, you're too top heavy. Especially with the likes of Himmelberg up forward too.

I would love a young ruck to develop, but we really need a way to get games into them once we have one.

As much as people around here like to hang sh*t on ROB (and it is often warranted), I think the bigger question is what useful purpose is Strachan serving? He seems to be "backup" for ROB in only the most extreme break-glass kind of emergencies ie ROB has had all his limbs severed in a horrific woodchipper accident or something. He certainly isn't used to put any kind of pressure on ROB's spot in terms of form.

Strachan is 28 years old and has played 5 games in 5 years. We seem to have put a line through him as an AFL player and just deemed him our SANFL ruck. That's not really worth using up a spot on our AFL list, is it? That's where we should have a young player developing. No guarantee any young player we get would be any better than Strachan, but we need to keep cycling players through that spot until we find one who is better than Strachan and can be ready to take over from ROB when the opportunity comes.

ROB is also 28 years old, so has 2-4 years at best in front of him. It would take that long to develop a ruck if we drafted one this year, and that's assuming we got it right first time. If we don't get it right, then 2-4 years from now, ROB and Strachan are both retired and we're having to overpay to trade in a good one, scooping up a meh sort of journeyman as a cheap trade / DFA, or we're drafting a kid and throwing him to the wolves from the word go. Quite possibly more than one of these options will apply, as we'll be needing to recruit a backup ruck to replace Strachan as well as a #1 to replace ROB.

If ROB was younger we could get away with having a backup the same age. But he's at the age where we need to be looking at the future of that spot in our team. Instead we have an apprentice who is the same age as the master, which seems pretty pointless.

 

[Jarman3]

Toby Murray is quite possibly Strachan's replacement in the future or in the very least a shot at it if he performs in the SANFL in 2024.

Strachan's replacement as the SANFL ruckman who can't crack the AFL side? Or do you think he has the potential to become ROB's replacement as our AFL ruck?

 

[rabidcrow]

Maybe - I think it's more likely we look to trade for a ruck in a couple of year's time, instead of developing one.

There's quite a few developing rucks around the league and you'd think some will be looking for new opportunities.

Totally agree with this. We shouldn’t see it as a need as much as best available talent when drafting. We can go and trade for a ruck when we need


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[Crow till I die]

Our pick 20 will be closer to 30, it’s not a deep draft so if that turns out to be a young ruck prospect it’s not that much to pay. Gawn and Darcy were drafted in the 30s. A ruckman of their quality makes our side better, it just does.

We’ve been smashed out of the middle in games because ROB has been uncompetitive. Port even with their A grade midfield, when Lycett went down they weren’t as effective.

It can’t hurt to have quality players everywhere and given we have spent ZERO on a ruck in recent years with draft pick around 30 when there’s a promising SA talent you just go for it, there’s low risk of losing them once they’ve developed.

Plus those other sides without elite rucks have had elite midfields, which we don’t have, we need a decent ruck to help.

If we were keen on a ruck, we could look to split 20 on the night for say a 30's pick and a good future 2nd

 

[rabidcrow]

Yes, I understand the argument you're putting fwd ....and normally I'd agree with you

However, I also agree we should at a min have 3 Rucks on the list, as Crows I Am outlined in the Draft thread .....a main ruck, back-up, and a developing ruck

Surely we can afford one spot to developing a ruck ......hell we have Borlaise ....and we can always move the Ruck to the rookie list at some point

Why a developing one? 6-8 get traded most years - and outside of 4-5 you could throw a blanket over the rest.
And maybe we do have one on our list but allowing him to develop forward at the moment


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[Vader]

As much as people around here like to hang sh*t on ROB (and it is often warranted), I think the bigger question is what useful purpose is Strachan serving? He seems to be "backup" for ROB in only the most extreme break-glass kind of emergencies ie ROB has had all his limbs severed in a horrific woodchipper accident or something. He certainly isn't used to put any kind of pressure on ROB's spot in terms of form.

Strachan is 28 years old and has played 5 games in 5 years. We seem to have put a line through him as an AFL player and just deemed him our SANFL ruck. That's not really worth using up a spot on our AFL list, is it? That's where we should have a young player developing. No guarantee any young player we get would be any better than Strachan, but we need to keep cycling players through that spot until we find one who is better than Strachan and can be ready to take over from ROB when the opportunity comes.

ROB is also 28 years old, so has 2-4 years at best in front of him. It would take that long to develop a ruck if we drafted one this year, and that's assuming we got it right first time. If we don't get it right, then 2-4 years from now, ROB and Strachan are both retired and we're having to overpay to trade in a good one, scooping up a meh sort of journeyman as a cheap trade / DFA, or we're drafting a kid and throwing him to the wolves from the word go. Quite possibly more than one of these options will apply, as we'll be needing to recruit a backup ruck to replace Strachan as well as a #1 to replace ROB.

If ROB was younger we could get away with having a backup the same age. But he's at the age where we need to be looking at the future of that spot in our team. Instead we have an apprentice who is the same age as the master, which seems pretty pointless.

Ideally you have both, a ready to go cheap backup, and a young gun in development (the team's next lead ruck).

We've gotten away without having a developing ruckman, due to ROB's relatively youthful age. However, he's now reaching the age where we need to seriously consider the succession plan. If not this year, then it becomes imperative in 2024.

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[George CantStandYa]

Why a developing one? 6-8 get traded most years - and outside of 4-5 you could throw a blanket over the rest.
And maybe we do have one on our list but allowing him to develop forward at the moment


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Good ones?

Mids, forwards, defenders get traded every year too, should we not draft those.

I repeat ONE pick which would be our first in how many years?

 

[Jarman3]

Don't know do we until he has a crack at SANFL but you can bet he'll be doing a lot of training against both ROB and Strachan for our coaches to assess. I think that's a big part of why Strachan only gets a crack when ROB is injured because by all reports ROB beats Strachan when pitted against him at training.

Yeah, which again prompts the question of what is the point of Strachan? He's 28, not going to get any better than he is now, yet we gave him a 3 year (!) extension at the end of last season. Surely that would have been the point to say there's not much use continuing that experiment and let's try something different?

Toby Murray may well train a lot against ROB and Strachan, but I worry he's going to have a hard time getting a decent amount of game time as a ruck even in the SANFL unless Strachan gets injured. And if he does come good, we then have to hope we can get him in the draft before somebody else beats us to the punch. If we wanted a SANFL ruckman, it seems the better option would have been to cut Strachan last year and keep him on as a top up player for our SANFL team and draft a developing ruck who we could actually play in the AFL if he developed well. Instead we've done it backwards and got our developing player as a SANFL top up who can't be selected in the AFL team, while our lead SANFL ruck has already hit his ceiling and it isn't high enough for us to consider him a genuine AFL player even though we can select him.

 

[arrowman]

This is the draft for taking a ruckman, probably the best draft in history for potential AFL ruckmen. Next year looks particularly skinny for rucks unless some spring out of the ground and enter the known pathways, that, or some of the known tall KPP's have a massive growth spurt.

2023 potential AFL rucks
1. Ethan Read 202cm GCS Academy
2. Taylor Goad 206cm SA
3. Mitch Edwards 206cm WA
4. Will Green 204cm VM
5. Vigo Visentini 204cm VM
6. Lachlan Smith 202cm VC
7. Evan Smith 201cm WA
8. Joe Pike 203cm VC
9. Caleb May 207cm Swans Academy
10. Boston Dowling 204cm VM

Mostyn I think it was you that suggested Lachlan Smith was slow? 3.13 at the 2023 Coates Talent League preseason testingaccording to Kevin Sheahan is pretty bloody respectable for a ruckman in anyone's terms. Didn't test at the Vic State Combine due to injury at season's end but every chancehis time would have even got better given it was his 1st preseason with the Gippy Power.

Interesting... I was going to say stuff it, take Goad with pick 20, but with a list that long, splitting 20 to a pick in the 30s plus e.g. a future 2nd, as suggested above, would leave us with a very good chance of landing one of those, if it's not Goad.

Either way, I'm pretty favourable to the idea of taking a ruck prospect with our 3rd pick.

 

[George CantStandYa]

Big Dub care you post your post on rucks in this thread given the discussion going on.

Plus it makes my opinion look better

 

[Head Selector]

I can't believe how much wingard fell off a cliff after he left port. What a waste of talent. The guy was too worried about the hairdressers.

Never watched film , didn't train hard , bare minimum recovery , basketball or PS controller in hand ... caught up quickly as natural athleticism tapered off . Hell of a talent, knaff attitude .

 

[rabidcrow]

Good ones?

Mids, forwards, defenders get traded every year too, should we not draft those.

I repeat ONE pick which would be our first in how many years?

Not saying we shouldn’t but I can understand why it’s not a priority.

People on here fret about it all the time and I don’t understand why. Clearly the club is happy with where it is at the moment - and if it isn’t then they have ample opportunity to change it at this draft
But I don’t think our fortunes rest on whether we pick a developing ruck this year or next year or the year after. I would be quite happy trading in a Soldo level ruck in the last year of ROB’s contract and open up the spot then


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[George CantStandYa]

Not saying we shouldn’t but I can understand why it’s not a priority.

People on here fret about it all the time and I don’t understand why. Clearly the club is happy with where it is at the moment - and if it isn’t then they have ample opportunity to change it at this draft
But I don’t think our fortunes rest on whether we pick a developing ruck this year or next year or the year after. I would be quite happy trading in a Soldo level ruck in the last year of ROB’s contract and open up the spot then


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“Clearly the club is happy” doesn’t do it for me.

Read Big Dubs post on it.

 

[rabidcrow]

You don't draft Ruckmen with what was pick 1 if you're referring to Thilthorpe, you use that on outstanding KPf Prospects.

I agree. But that may not be the clubs view.

Look - as you have highlighted there are lots of potential rucks in this years draft so maybe we draft one. It wouldn’t surprise. But just as likely we are looking at Barnett in a couple of years time if he is still behind Williams

Or any other of the decent secondary ruckman.




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[BucketsNj]

1st round:
Tom Gilligan
John Meesen

2nd round:
Rhett Biglands
Kurt Tippett

3rd round:
Lucas Herbert
Ivan Maric

4th round:
Ben Hudson

Rookie draft:
Ben Marsh
Matthew Golding
Jonathan Griffin
Reilly O'Brien
Paul Hunter
Kieran Strachan

Trade:
Aaron Keating
Matthew Clarke
Sam Jacobs
Luke Lowden
Angus Graham

Original/zone:
Romano Negri
Mark Mickan
Shaun Rehn
David Pittman
Randall Bone


Missing?

Trent Ormond-Allen

 

[Crow_68]

 

[Mostyn]

This is the draft for taking a ruckman, probably the best draft in history for potential AFL ruckmen. Next year looks particularly skinny for rucks unless some spring out of the ground and enter the known pathways, that, or some of the known tall KPP's have a massive growth spurt.

2023 potential AFL rucks
1. Ethan Read 202cm GCS Academy
2. Taylor Goad 206cm SA
3. Mitch Edwards 206cm WA
4. Will Green 204cm VM
5. Vigo Visentini 204cm VM
6. Lachlan Smith 202cm VC
7. Evan Smith 201cm WA
8. Joe Pike 203cm VC
9. Caleb May 207cm Swans Academy
10. Boston Dowling 204cm VM

Mostyn I think it was you that suggested Lachlan Smith was slow? 3.13 at the 2023 Coates Talent League preseason testing according to Kevin Sheahan is pretty bloody respectable for a ruckman in anyone's terms. Didn't test at the Vic State Combine due to injury at season's end but every chancehis time would have even got better given it was his 1st preseason with the Gippy Power.

Edit : Yep just checked it was you.

View attachment 1852464

Kevin Sheehan’s 2023 AFL Draft top prospects: Tall forwards and rucks

AFL Talent Ambassador Kevin Sheehan has released profiles on the top tall forward and ruck prospects ahead of the 2023 AFL Draft

www.afl.com.au

Lachlan Smith
State: Victoria Country
State League Club: Gippsland Power
Community Club: Warragul
Date of Birth: 05/10/05
Height: 202cm

Left-footed ruckman who uses his impressive frame to compete ferociously at stoppages and can win his own ball. Was a strong contributor all year for the Gippsland Power in the Coates Talent League averaging 16.8 disposals, 3.7 marks and 19.4 hitouts. Was particularly impressive for Victoria Country in its win over Western Australia at the National Championships. Was unable to test at the state Draft Combine due to injury but his 3.13 seconds on the 20m sprint at the Coates Talent League testing day earlier in the year was an insight into his mobility for a ruckman.

I just pointed out that someone else who had seen him had warned he was super slow. I don't have any opinion because I haven't watched him.

The testing numbers are much better data, though.

 

[Mostyn]

Not saying we shouldn’t but I can understand why it’s not a priority.

People on here fret about it all the time and I don’t understand why. Clearly the club is happy with where it is at the moment - and if it isn’t then they have ample opportunity to change it at this draft
But I don’t think our fortunes rest on whether we pick a developing ruck this year or next year or the year after. I would be quite happy trading in a Soldo level ruck in the last year of ROB’s contract and open up the spot then


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Ruck just doesn't seem to be a very important position. You can't win a flag with a middling forward line, or crap mids or a terrible defense.

But a half decent ruck is all anyone seems to need, if they have the rest in place.

 

[Mostyn]

And that's why I don't like commenting on players I haven't watched play in actual football games not just highlight reels.

Okay.

Except I didn't comment - I referenced the observations of someone who had seen them play, and asked if their opinions were concerning.

 

[dogs105]

Trent Ormond-Allen

Trade...