List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[freo_leo29]

Our problem wasn't spending picks to trade people in

Our problem is player retention, we have been a revolving door of players walking out on us

Generally they are all top 10 players that walk out too

 

[Lach72]

I think the crows have done it brilliantly.

Commit to the draft for a few years, pick good players and get them cheaply.

If you trade out a top 10 pick, make sure you get an A grader in return with 8+ years left in him.

I think the goal of any rebuild is to get as many A graders on your list who will be available when you are ready to chase a flag. I don't think adding B and C graders to your list (especially when giving up picks for them) helps during a rebuild.

How would you rebuid?

Oleg Markov, Will Hoskin Elliot, Billy Frampton, Darcy Cameron, Nathan Kruger, Patrick Lipinsky, Tom Mitchell, Daniel McStay, Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Jack Crisp, Jeremy Howe.

Under your method none of those players would be playing for Collingwood…none of them would be A graders according to any method I can think of.

Mitchell not at this stage of his career. Crisp maybe.

So what does that leave us with?

Coaching… and three A grade father sons and Isaac Quaynor and Pendlebury and De Goey

 

[freo_leo29]

Where else was he going? We held all the cards, he didn’t want to go to WC

We didn't hold all the cards, we still had to trade for him

If he walks to the PSD then 1 of 14 clubs take a chance on him

 

[s_wd6]

I challenge you to have a look at Collingwoods list of who is playing regular football currently.

They have up to 12 players who play regular or at least semi regular football who were traded in from other clubs, coupled with three rolled gold father sons and Quaynor as an academy player

Collingwood is there biggest club in the country and they’re in Victoria. A lot easier to convince players to move there than across the country to WA.

 

[nurries]

We didn't hold all the cards, we still had to trade for him

If he walks to the PSD then 1 of 14 clubs take a chance on him

We did trade for him, Melbourne would be crazy to knock back 1 first and 2 2nd rounders and lose him for none

 

[Lach72]

Collingwood is there biggest club in the country and they’re in Victoria. A lot easier to convince players to move there than across the country to WA.

That’s not the point I’m making. His argument is you don’t trade for B and C grade players during a rebuild. There’s 12 players of b and c grade quality traded in that are playing in the best team in the land.

 

[freo_leo29]

We did trade for him, Melbourne would be crazy to knock back 1 first and 2 2nd rounders and lose him for none

There is no scenario that they accept that

they didn't even take 2 firsts, why would they take 1 and 2 2nds?

Remeber, our picks were predicted to be much later than they ended up being

 

[go_the_dockers]

I challenge you to have a look at Collingwoods list of who is playing regular football currently.

They have up to 12 players who play regular or at least semi regular football who were traded in from other clubs, coupled with three rolled gold father sons and Quaynor as an academy player

Oleg Markov, Will Hoskin Elliot, Billy Frampton, Darcy Cameron, Nathan Kruger, Patrick Lipinsky, Tom Mitchell, Daniel McStay, Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Jack Crisp, Jeremy Howe.

Under your method none of those players would be playing for Collingwood

That is not a full on rebuild.
2013 6th
11th
2015 12th
12th
2017 13th
3rd
2019 4th
8th
2021 17th
4th
2023 1st

They also traded out Grundy, Aish, Treloar so they have trade out more picks than they have brought in over the last 5 years at least (from memory)

Collingwood weren't rebuilding when they brought them in?. From a quick look, the answer is no for most of them. I have no issue with topping up, if you think that will make the different but when you finish bottom 4 adding 1 players rarely make enough of a difference.

Hill and McStay came in after they finished 4th. Mitchell as well.
Darcy Cameron was for pick 56. (2019 after finishing top 6) and was not old. (21 or 22)
Lipinski pick 43 (finished 2nd to bottom, but only gave up a 3rd)
Kruger was pick 41 and they got back pick 55

2018 and 2019 they finished top 6 as well, so not in a rebuild as such.

Plus as you said, they got two Daicos, Moore and Quaynor. They would only be midtable with out 3 A grade father sons.


How many top 10 draft picks did they give up? I think Adams was pick 13 (going back to 2013) is the most they gave up. Hoskin Elliot was a 2nd round pick and going back many years.


If you think we have enough talent on your list, then topping up is a brilliant idea. I don't think we do, especially A grade talent and until we do, topping up will not help us finish top 4.

 

[freo_leo29]

You can build a list in all sorts of ways, ours is actually pretty decent, our biggest issue is stars walking out

We have lost

2x elite wingers (Hill, Langdon) 1x pretty good winger (Acres, this ones our fault)
1x brownlow medallist (Neale)
1x Gun KPF (Hogan, I blame injuries on this one not 100% clubs fault)
1x Good KPF/Ruck (Lobb, he is better than people give credit for)
1X Gun midfielder (Cerra)
1X Solid KPD/utility (Logue)

And thats just the above average players I can think of off the top of my head

 

[Superkoops]

2016 trade in Bennell
2017 trade in McCarthy, Hill, Hamling
2018 Wilson, Matera
2019 Conca, Hogan, Lobb, Colyer
2020 Acres, Aish
2021 None
2022 Brodie, Clark
2023 Corbett, Jackson, O'Meara

I don't see the difference. One year in 8 years we did not throw away draft picks during a rebuild (or what ever you call it).

At least 4 1st, 6 2nds, 4 3rd for not much in return. This is why we are 8 years into a rebuild or being consistently s**t, and have nothing to show for it.

The following would have been better:
2016 None
2017 Hill, Hamling
2018 None
2019 Lobb, Colyer
2020 Acres, Aish
2021 None
2022 Brodie, Clark
2023 Jackson, O'Meara

We would have had 3 earlier first round picks (2016, 2017, 2019) and 2nd round picks (2019 x 2). Could argue that Wilson was an ok selection for F2 (pick 30 2018 ND).

Clark, Hill, Lobb, Hamling, Aish were good additions for cost of 2nd round pick equivalent (and yes I look at the overall trade for Lobb who was quite good for four years and got reasonable return value - same goes for Brad Hill). Hamling until injury was very serviceable defender.

I agree with your point on 1st round picks and not committing fully to rebuild.

I like what we did in 2020 and 2022. 2017 would have been fine if we didn’t do the McCarthy trade.

2015 Pick 20 Bennell (Fiorini)
2016 Pick 3 McCarthy (McLuggage)
2018 Pick 6 Hogan (King) and 2018 Pick 27 Hogan (Swallow) and 2018 Pick 30 Wilson (Hamill)

 

[freo_leo29]

I like what we did in 2020 and 2022. 2017 would have been fine if we didn’t do the McCarthy trade.

Just a quick one for this but if we don't do Mccarthy trade then we have no picks in the 2016 draft and miss out on Ryan and Darcy(or Cox)

 

[go_the_dockers]

The following would have been better:
2016 None
2017 Hill, Hamling
2018 None
2019 Lobb, Colyer
2020 Acres, Aish
2021 None
2022 Brodie, Clark
2023 Jackson, O'Meara

We would have had 3 earlier first round picks (2016, 2017, 2019) and 2nd round picks (2019 x 2). Could argue that Wilson was an ok selection for F2 (pick 30 2018 ND).

Clark, Hill, Lobb, Hamling, Aish were good additions for cost of 2nd round pick equivalent (and yes I look at the overall trade for Lobb who was quite good for four years and got reasonable return value - same goes for Brad Hill). Hamling until injury was very serviceable defender.

I agree with your point on 1st round picks and not committing fully to rebuild.

I like what we did in 2020 and 2022. 2017 would have been fine if we didn’t do the McCarthy trade.

2015 Pick 20 Bennell (Fiorini)
2016 Pick 3 McCarthy (McLuggage)
2018 Pick 6 Hogan (King) and 2018 Pick 27 Hogan (Swallow) and 2018 Pick 30 Wilson (Hamill)

I think the point you miss is, you need to get all your talent playing well at the same time.

Lobb, Wilson are trades which alone are ok, but as they were never going to play when the rest of the list was ready are shit trades.

8 years in, and still bottom 4. We have done something massively wrong

 

[s_wd6]

I think the point you miss is, you need to get all your talent playing well at the same time.

Lobb, Wilson are trades which alone are ok, but as they were never going to play when the rest of the list was ready are s**t trades.

8 years in, and still bottom 4. We have done something massively wrong

We’re not STILL bottom 4. That ignores literally all the progress that has been made since the start of the rebuild, where we were a game or two out of finals and then finished 5th. Plenty of teams, especially young teams, have dips in form. Progress isn’t linear. Even port were complete trash last year and are top 2 this year. You can’t view this one year in isolation.

 

[go_the_dockers]

We’re not STILL bottom 4. That ignores literally all the progress that has been made since the start of the rebuild, where we were a game or two out of finals and then finished 5th. Plenty of teams, especially young teams, have dips in form. Progress isn’t linear. Even port were complete trash last year and are top 2 this year. You can’t view this one year in isolation.

Looking at our list I think we have one talented forward under 30.
Lack outside midfield talent to break lines.
Agree we have made progress, but we should have made a lot more.

I don't see us heading up the ladder much next year unless will find a forward from no where.

 

[King Huskii]

Looking at our list I think we have one talented forward under 30.
Lack outside midfield talent to break lines.
Agree we have made progress, but we should have made a lot more.

I don't see us heading up the ladder much next year unless will find a forward from no where.

We ****ed up

We traded out Hill and Neale for Hogan and Lobb.

They are all gone with nothing in return.

We really ****ed up.

Thats a big part of our build there.

Imagine if we went to the draft with those picks of Neale and Hills. We could have two young guns the likes of Rozzee or Butters and another gun players to top it off.

Rosich really ****ed us as he walked out the door that useless campaigner

 

[Joao]

We ****ed up

We traded out Hill and Neale for Hogan and Lobb.

They are all gone with nothing in return.

We really ****ed up.

Thats a big part of our build there.

Imagine if we went to the draft with those picks of Neale and Hills. We could have two young guns the likes of Rozzee or Butters and another gun players to top it off.

Rosich really ****ed us as he walked out the door that useless campaigner

Serong is from Hill so that is a big win.

But getting nothing for Neale is correct.

 

[rgauci]

We ****ed up

We traded out Hill and Neale for Hogan and Lobb.

They are all gone with nothing in return.

We really ****ed up.

Thats a big part of our build there.

Imagine if we went to the draft with those picks of Neale and Hills. We could have two young guns the likes of Rozzee or Butters and another gun players to top it off.

Rosich really ****ed us as he walked out the door that useless campaigner

That’s not true, Hill got us Serong, Aish and Acres.

Neale —> Hogan and Lobb was a big **** up.

 

[s_wd6]

We ****ed up

We traded out Hill and Neale for Hogan and Lobb.

They are all gone with nothing in return.

We really ****ed up.

Thats a big part of our build there.

Imagine if we went to the draft with those picks of Neale and Hills. We could have two young guns the likes of Rozzee or Butters and another gun players to top it off.

Rosich really ****ed us as he walked out the door that useless campaigner

Hill gave us Serong (and 2022 Acres). Completely different off season.

Neale gave us Hogan and Lobb. That was the **** up. The Hill trade was fine.

 

[King Huskii]

Serong is from Hill so that is a big win.

But getting nothing for Neale is correct.

Serong for Hill... are you sure?

 

[King Huskii]

That’s not true, Hill got us Serong, Aish and Acres.

Neale —> Hogan and Lobb was a big * up.

Ok a mistake

Neale for absolutely nothing

Hill for Serong and Aish coz Acres is gone

We still ****ed up

 

[Joao]

Serong for Hill... are you sure?

100%

 

[s_wd6]

Ok a mistake

Neale for absolutely nothing

Hill for Serong and Aish coz Acres is gone

We still ****ed up

I don’t think anyone can argue that the Neale trade was the single biggest **** up in recent years and set us backs couple years. Because ultimately he left for nothing. Langdon too but he was ooc and would’ve walked to a bottom three Melbourne so there was nothing we could do there.

But you can’t complain about Hill or Cerra trades, for example, because without that there’s no Serong or Amiss.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I don’t think anyone can argue that the Neale trade was the single biggest * up in recent years and set us backs couple years. Because ultimately he left for nothing. Langdon too but he was ooc and would’ve walked to a bottom three Melbourne so there was nothing we could do there.

But you can’t complain about Hill or Cerra trades, for example, because without that there’s no Serong or Amiss.

We started the trade period with pick 6, Neale wanting to leave and Brisbane offering pick 5.

We end up with Lobb, Hogan and Sturt when 5 and 6 were Rozee and King.

This will hurt us for 10 years

 

[Joao]

Between fleecing GC and the Saints we've probably broken even on awesome deals vs shocking ones.

 

[Dockeroo]

We’re not STILL bottom 4. That ignores literally all the progress that has been made since the start of the rebuild, where we were a game or two out of finals and then finished 5th. Plenty of teams, especially young teams, have dips in form. Progress isn’t linear. Even port were complete trash last year and are top 2 this year. You can’t view this one year in isolation.

We are bottom 4.
The ladder does not lie after 18 games and there is no doubt we are one of the worst sides in the AFL at the moment.
We will see if we can improve a bit over the last 6 weeks.
If hawthorn had won today we would actually be looking over our shoulder at the bottom 3 which is quite shocking