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List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

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Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant
 
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freo_leo29 said:
Yeah pre agent is the year before free agency

Ralph reckons he signs with us this year as a pre agent


I'm actually with you on Cox, he was off this year, worried he might seek greener pastures and now Crows are missing Doedee and Murray with ACL's further solidifying their desperate need for KPD's
Click to expand...
Crows have been after him basically ever year. I’m sure they’ll up they’re offer even more now that they’ve lost their KPDs.
 
estibador said:
Haha man, I can't even imagine how devoid of hope I'd feel if we backed up last seasons exodus by losing Darcy, Cox and Henry in the one off-season.

At that point we'd have officially become a feeder team on par with GC and GWS, but with none of the AFL lovechild perks to try keep us competitive.
Click to expand...
I'd be asking the draft board what WA guys are looking like pick 1 candidates in 2024 because we'd be fighting it out with West Coast for them next year if that happened.
 
eastfreo75 said:
It seems like the last 8 years has been 2 steps forward 2 steps back.

There is a list of the player still playing at another club in the last 7 years. Best 22

2022 - Logue, Lobb, Acres
2021 - Cerra
2020 - Hogan
2019 - B Hill, Langdon
2018 - Neale
2017 - Weller

We are averaging 1.5 best 22 players leaving each year.
Click to expand...
Righto, since I haven't got much else to do and I was curious. I went through and did this for every club that either traded or lost a player in free agency since 2017 that is now best 22 in 2023 for their new club.

Not perfect because I'm not 100 percent sure if all these guys are actually best 22 or not (like is Dylan Shiel & Ben Brown best 22 in 2023?). Also might have missed someone but not sure, feel free to correct.

Doesn't necessarily tell the full story as some of these guys were pushed out (Hawthorn pushing Mitchell/O'Meara) or some wouldn't be best 22 at their old club in 2023 (think like Alex Witherden wouldn't be best 22 at Brisbane now so it doesn't really hurt them by him not being there).

From your list we have 9. So 2nd highest out of every club behind GWS, so definitely more than most.

Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jake Lever, Charlie Cameron
2018 - Mitch McGovern
2020 - Brad Crouch (FA)

Brisbane (2)
2020 - Alex Witherden
2022 - Dan McStay (FA)

Carlton (3)

2021 - Sam Petrevski-Seton
2022 - Liam Jones (FA), Will Setterfield

Collingwood (5)
2019 - James Aish
2020 - Jaidyn Stephenson, Adam Treloar
2022 - Brodie Grundy, Ollie Henry

Essendon (2)
2020 - Adam Saad, Joe Daniher (FA)

Geelong (3)
2018 - Lincoln McCarthy
2019 - Tim Kelly
2021 - Jordan Clark

Gold Coast (6)
2017 - Adam Saad
2018 - Tom Lynch (FA), Steven May, Jack Scrimshaw
2020 - Peter Wright
2022 - Izak Rankine

GWS (10)
2018 - Dylan Shiel (?)
2020 - Jye Caldwell, Jeremy Cameron, Zac Williams (FA), Aidan Corr (FA)
2021 - Jeremy Finlayson
2022 - Bobby Hill, Tim Taranto, Tanner Bruhn, Jacob Hopper

Hawthorn (6)
2018 - Ryan Burton
2019 - Marc Pittonet
2020 - Isaac Smith (FA)
2022 - Jack Gunston, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara

Melbourne (5)
2018 - Jesse Hogan
2019 - Sam Frost
2022 - Toby Bedford, Jayden Hunt (FA), Luke Jackson

North Melbourne (2)
2020 - Ben Brown (?)
2022 - Jason Horne-Francis

Port Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jarman Impey
2018 - Chad Wingard
2019 - Dougal Howard
2022 - Karl Amon

Richmond (4)
2019 - Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis (FA)
2020 - Jack Higgins
2021 - Mabior Chol (FA)

St. Kilda (2)
2019 - Blake Acres
2022 - Ben Long

Sydney (6)
2018 - Gary Rohan, Nic Newman
2019 - Darcy Cameron, Zak Jones
2020 - Aliir Aliir
2021 - Jordan Dawson

West Coast (3)
2018 - Scott Lycett (FA)
2020 - Tom Hickey
2022 - Willie Rioli

Western Bulldogs (5)
2017 - Jake Stringer
2021 - Lewis Young, Pat Lipinski
2022 - Lachie Hunter, Josh Dunkley
 
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King Tenz said:
Righto, since I haven't got much else to do and I was curious. I went through and did this for every club that either traded or lost a player in free agency since 2017 that is now best 22 in 2023 for their new club.

Not perfect because I'm not 100 percent sure if all these guys are actually best 22 or not (like is Dylan Shiel & Ben Brown best 22 in 2023?). Also might have missed someone but not sure, feel free to correct.

Doesn't necessarily tell the full story as some of these guys were pushed out (Hawthorn pushing Mitchell/O'Meara) or some wouldn't be best 22 at their old club in 2023 (think like Alex Witherden wouldn't be best 22 at Brisbane now so it doesn't really hurt them by him not being there).

From your list we have 9. So 2nd highest out of every club behind GWS, so definitely more than most.

Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jake Lever, Charlie Cameron
2018 - Mitch McGovern
2020 - Brad Crouch (FA)

Brisbane (2)
2020 - Alex Witherden
2022 - Dan McStay (FA)

Carlton (3)

2021 - Sam Petrevski-Seton
2022 - Liam Jones (FA), Will Setterfield

Collingwood (5)
2019 - James Aish
2020 - Jaidyn Stephenson, Adam Treloar
2022 - Brodie Grundy, Ollie Henry

Essendon (2)
2020 - Adam Saad, Joe Daniher (FA)

Geelong (3)
2018 - Lincoln McCarthy
2019 - Tim Kelly
2021 - Jordan Clark

Gold Coast (6)
2017 - Adam Saad
2018 - Tom Lynch (FA), Steven May, Jack Scrimshaw
2020 - Peter Wright
2022 - Izak Rankine

GWS (10)
2018 - Dylan Shiel (?)
2020 - Jye Caldwell, Jeremy Cameron, Zac Williams (FA), Aidan Corr (FA)
2021 - Jeremy Finlayson
2022 - Bobby Hill, Tim Taranto, Tanner Bruhn, Jacob Hopper

Hawthorn (6)
2018 - Ryan Burton
2019 - Marc Pittonet
2020 - Isaac Smith (FA)
2022 - Jack Gunston, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara

Melbourne (4)
2018 - Jesse Hogan
2019 - Sam Frost
2022 - Toby Bedford, Jayden Hunt (FA)

North Melbourne (2)
2020 - Ben Brown (?)
2022 - Jason Horne-Francis

Port Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jarman Impey
2018 - Chad Wingard
2019 - Dougal Howard
2022 - Karl Amon

Richmond (4)
2019 - Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis (FA)
2020 - Jack Higgins
2021 - Mabior Chol (FA)

St. Kilda (2)
2019 - Blake Acres
2022 - Ben Long

Sydney (6)
2018 - Gary Rohan, Nic Newman
2019 - Darcy Cameron, Zak Jones
2020 - Aliir Aliir
2021 - Jordan Dawson

West Coast (3)
2018 - Scott Lycett (FA)
2020 - Tom Hickey
2022 - Willie Rioli

Western Bulldogs (5)
2017 - Jake Stringer
2021 - Lewis Young, Pat Lipinski
2022 - Lachie Hunter, Josh Dunkley
Click to expand...
Good one, not great is it.

Seems a little harsh on Luke Jackson not to consider him best 22 though
 

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King Tenz said:
Righto, since I haven't got much else to do and I was curious. I went through and did this for every club that either traded or lost a player in free agency since 2017 that is now best 22 in 2023 for their new club.

Not perfect because I'm not 100 percent sure if all these guys are actually best 22 or not (like is Dylan Shiel & Ben Brown best 22 in 2023?). Also might have missed someone but not sure, feel free to correct.

Doesn't necessarily tell the full story as some of these guys were pushed out (Hawthorn pushing Mitchell/O'Meara) or some wouldn't be best 22 at their old club in 2023 (think like Alex Witherden wouldn't be best 22 at Brisbane now so it doesn't really hurt them by him not being there).

From your list we have 9. So 2nd highest out of every club behind GWS, so definitely more than most.

Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jake Lever, Charlie Cameron
2018 - Mitch McGovern
2020 - Brad Crouch (FA)

Brisbane (2)
2020 - Alex Witherden
2022 - Dan McStay (FA)

Carlton (3)

2021 - Sam Petrevski-Seton
2022 - Liam Jones (FA), Will Setterfield

Collingwood (5)
2019 - James Aish
2020 - Jaidyn Stephenson, Adam Treloar
2022 - Brodie Grundy, Ollie Henry

Essendon (2)
2020 - Adam Saad, Joe Daniher (FA)

Geelong (3)
2018 - Lincoln McCarthy
2019 - Tim Kelly
2021 - Jordan Clark

Gold Coast (6)
2017 - Adam Saad
2018 - Tom Lynch (FA), Steven May, Jack Scrimshaw
2020 - Peter Wright
2022 - Izak Rankine

GWS (10)
2018 - Dylan Shiel (?)
2020 - Jye Caldwell, Jeremy Cameron, Zac Williams (FA), Aidan Corr (FA)
2021 - Jeremy Finlayson
2022 - Bobby Hill, Tim Taranto, Tanner Bruhn, Jacob Hopper

Hawthorn (6)
2018 - Ryan Burton
2019 - Marc Pittonet
2020 - Isaac Smith (FA)
2022 - Jack Gunston, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara

Melbourne (5)
2018 - Jesse Hogan
2019 - Sam Frost
2022 - Toby Bedford, Jayden Hunt (FA), Luke Jackson

North Melbourne (2)
2020 - Ben Brown (?)
2022 - Jason Horne-Francis

Port Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jarman Impey
2018 - Chad Wingard
2019 - Dougal Howard
2022 - Karl Amon

Richmond (4)
2019 - Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis (FA)
2020 - Jack Higgins
2021 - Mabior Chol (FA)

St. Kilda (2)
2019 - Blake Acres
2022 - Ben Long

Sydney (6)
2018 - Gary Rohan, Nic Newman
2019 - Darcy Cameron, Zak Jones
2020 - Aliir Aliir
2021 - Jordan Dawson

West Coast (3)
2018 - Scott Lycett (FA)
2020 - Tom Hickey
2022 - Willie Rioli

Western Bulldogs (5)
2017 - Jake Stringer
2021 - Lewis Young, Pat Lipinski
2022 - Lachie Hunter, Josh Dunkley
Click to expand...
Wow.
That’s damning. Absolutely brutal from our perspective.
 
King Tenz said:
Righto, since I haven't got much else to do and I was curious. I went through and did this for every club that either traded or lost a player in free agency since 2017 that is now best 22 in 2023 for their new club.

Not perfect because I'm not 100 percent sure if all these guys are actually best 22 or not (like is Dylan Shiel & Ben Brown best 22 in 2023?). Also might have missed someone but not sure, feel free to correct.

Doesn't necessarily tell the full story as some of these guys were pushed out (Hawthorn pushing Mitchell/O'Meara) or some wouldn't be best 22 at their old club in 2023 (think like Alex Witherden wouldn't be best 22 at Brisbane now so it doesn't really hurt them by him not being there).

From your list we have 9. So 2nd highest out of every club behind GWS, so definitely more than most.

Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jake Lever, Charlie Cameron
2018 - Mitch McGovern
2020 - Brad Crouch (FA)

Brisbane (2)
2020 - Alex Witherden
2022 - Dan McStay (FA)

Carlton (3)

2021 - Sam Petrevski-Seton
2022 - Liam Jones (FA), Will Setterfield

Collingwood (5)
2019 - James Aish
2020 - Jaidyn Stephenson, Adam Treloar
2022 - Brodie Grundy, Ollie Henry

Essendon (2)
2020 - Adam Saad, Joe Daniher (FA)

Geelong (3)
2018 - Lincoln McCarthy
2019 - Tim Kelly
2021 - Jordan Clark

Gold Coast (6)
2017 - Adam Saad
2018 - Tom Lynch (FA), Steven May, Jack Scrimshaw
2020 - Peter Wright
2022 - Izak Rankine

GWS (10)
2018 - Dylan Shiel (?)
2020 - Jye Caldwell, Jeremy Cameron, Zac Williams (FA), Aidan Corr (FA)
2021 - Jeremy Finlayson
2022 - Bobby Hill, Tim Taranto, Tanner Bruhn, Jacob Hopper

Hawthorn (6)
2018 - Ryan Burton
2019 - Marc Pittonet
2020 - Isaac Smith (FA)
2022 - Jack Gunston, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara

Melbourne (5)
2018 - Jesse Hogan
2019 - Sam Frost
2022 - Toby Bedford, Jayden Hunt (FA), Luke Jackson

North Melbourne (2)
2020 - Ben Brown (?)
2022 - Jason Horne-Francis

Port Adelaide (4)
2017 - Jarman Impey
2018 - Chad Wingard
2019 - Dougal Howard
2022 - Karl Amon

Richmond (4)
2019 - Dan Butler, Brandon Ellis (FA)
2020 - Jack Higgins
2021 - Mabior Chol (FA)

St. Kilda (2)
2019 - Blake Acres
2022 - Ben Long

Sydney (6)
2018 - Gary Rohan, Nic Newman
2019 - Darcy Cameron, Zak Jones
2020 - Aliir Aliir
2021 - Jordan Dawson

West Coast (3)
2018 - Scott Lycett (FA)
2020 - Tom Hickey
2022 - Willie Rioli

Western Bulldogs (5)
2017 - Jake Stringer
2021 - Lewis Young, Pat Lipinski
2022 - Lachie Hunter, Josh Dunkley
Click to expand...
We are the beneficiary of 6/74 of those movements so just over 1/12 which is higher than average for 18 teams which would be more than most
 

Fremantle’s five burning questions: How Dockers can salvage something from this AFL season​

Fremantle faces a potential bottom-four finish, yet something can be salvaged from this season if crucial issues like brand, midfield options and ruck depth are explored. ELIZA REILLY breaks down the Dockers’ plight.

3 min read
July 25, 2023 - 8:00AM

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It’s back to the drawing board for Fremantle head coach [PLAYERCARD]Justin Longmuir[/PLAYERCARD] - so what can first be salvaged from this season? Picture: Matt King/AFL Photos/via Getty Images

It’s back to the drawing board for Fremantle head coach Justin Longmuir - so what can first be salvaged from this season? Picture: Matt King/AFL Photos/via Getty Images

After losing to Sydney on Saturday night, Fremantle coach Justin Longmuir was asked how much focus he could start giving to next season, given the Dockers’ 2023 campaign is dying a slow death.

Wins and finals are always the priority. Only one of those things is still achievable and Longmuir said as much, while declaring the Dockers were still invested in this season.

Just one year after being denied a top-four finish by Carlton in the final round of the home and away season, Fremantle sits in the bottom four thanks to a post-bye capitulation.
The Dockers won’t be making consecutive finals appearances. And season 2023 has also left them with more questions than answers.
With five rounds to play, here are five glaring issues that Fremantle must address to salvage an otherwise disappointing season.

1. What is Fremantle’s brand?​

In a season that’s seen the AFL embrace fast football, Fremantle has been left behind. Due to a combination of intent and taking what the opposition offers, the Dockers’ slow play has gone against the grain. Fans have struggled to recognise an identifiable brand of football and that needs to change in 2024.
Against Sydney, the Dockers did attempt to go faster but at times, they were too fast for their own good and coughed up the footy. It doesn’t matter. The game and its rules now reward fast football and hopefully, Longmuir has the will to continue coaching it for the rest of the season to give his side a head start on next year.
[PLAYERCARD]Sam Sturt[/PLAYERCARD] and [PLAYERCARD]Luke Jackson[/PLAYERCARD] leap for a contested mark against the Sydney Swans at Optus Stadium. Picture: James Worsfold/Getty Images

Sam Sturt and Luke Jackson leap for a contested mark against the Sydney Swans at Optus Stadium. Picture: James Worsfold/Getty Images

2. How can Dockers correct slow starts?​

It’s not just a trend. It’s a crisis. Fremantle has now lost 16 of its 18 first quarters this season and at least three of them played a significant part in the outcome of the game; think GWS in round 14, Carlton in round 17 and now Sydney in round 19. Flip those results and the Dockers could be sitting 10-8 and inside the top eight.
Fremantle have tried various means of turning it around but none have worked, including an attempt to start main training with match simulation that left the Dockers with fresh injuries. At this point, Fremantle might be forced to accept that inexperience is the cause. When the game is new and players are fresh, the Dockers can’t handle the heat that is thrown at them. Figuring out who can and who can’t stand up under pressure early is a must for Longmuir.
[PLAYERCARD]James Aish[/PLAYERCARD] and [PLAYERCARD]Alex Pearce[/PLAYERCARD] take on Carlton’s [PLAYERCARD]Patrick Cripps[/PLAYERCARD] in round 17 at Optus Stadium. Picture: Paul Kane/Getty Images

James Aish and Alex Pearce take on Carlton’s Patrick Cripps in round 17 at Optus Stadium. Picture: Paul Kane/Getty Images

3. Who else can run through the midfield?​

Fremantle’s results this year have been intrinsically linked to the performance of its midfield. When the midfield fails to fire, the Dockers’ entire system crumbles around it. Clearances play a big part and if the Dockers can’t win enough, it’s time to start exploring what new potential they have on their list.
Variety is the spice of life and Fremantle has gotten better across the season, blooding eight different players in the middle against Sydney. But two players with massive midfield potential are Hayden Young and Heath Chapman. Young attended a handful of centre bounces late in the game against GWS earlier this season and his pinpoint delivery from the back of stoppages could be a massive weapon for Fremantle. Longmuir has indicated that Young could eventually move into the midfield, allowing the Dockers to get more games into the likes of Karl Worner and Corey Wagner.
And with nothing to play for, that time should be now. Chapman has had an interrupted season with a lingering hamstring injury but made his return via the WAFL on the weekend. He too offers a bigger body and ability to read the play as it unfolds.
[PLAYERCARD]Hayden Young[/PLAYERCARD] handballs for the Dockers against Sydney. Picture: James Worsfold/Getty Images

Hayden Young handballs for the Dockers against Sydney. Picture: James Worsfold/Getty Images

4. What do the ruck stocks look like?​

With Sean Darcy sent for season-ending surgery on his ankle, it’s time for Fremantle to find out some more about its rucks. We know Luke Jackson can ruck. While he gives up some size to the league’s genuine monsters, Jackson competes well and is even better at ground level. But one of Jackson’s flaws is his versatility. Coming across on a massive contract, he has played a variety of positions this season but the reality is that he’s probably not worth $1 million a year as a pure forward.
With Darcy sidelined, the Dockers are yet to dip into their ruck stocks, leaning on Jackson with Josh Treacy as back-up. But mature-age ruck Liam Reidy wouldn’t look out of place at AFL level and he’d allow Jackson to remain up forward. Max Knobel is a long-term prospect and has spent most of the season in Peel Thunder’s reserves side.
Peel Thunder ruck Liam Reidy may get his shot at a Fremantle AFL debut. Picture: Sharon Johnson

Peel Thunder ruck Liam Reidy may get his shot at a Fremantle AFL debut. Picture: Sharon Johnson

5. What’s the decision on depth?​

​

Players like Ethan Hughes, Bailey Banfield and Joel Hamling have been important members of Fremantle’s list over the past two years. But the Dockers need to decide whether they, and players like them, are going to be members of a premiership squad.
Few would have thought that Hughes would play every game this season, failing at first as a wingman before being moved back into defence. Hamling has recently gotten an opportunity due to Brennan Cox’s injury, while the difference between Banfield’s best and worst is decent.
Fremantle must determine whether they have moved past depth players.
 
Aaron Naughton would cost nearly twice as much as Luke Jackson currently does.

There is better value out there.
 

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Still kicked a awsome amount of goals for the year and we are screaming out for someone who can actually contested mark
 
We absolutely need a marking target up the line and we need him to be mid twenties, play every game and kick a goal every now and then - he really doesn't need to do more than that.

I'm hopeful this can come from our existing list.

Buying the great hope is what we spend a lot of time lamenting.
 
freo1 said:
I've said this before but a key forward that cant kick is as useless as **** on a bull. All these footy experts and none can see that he can't kick?? I dont care if he's the best contested mark in history - he cant kick!
Click to expand...

The dude kicked 51.34 last year. On track to kick 46.31 this year (maybe more with finals).

That is not even close to being as "useless as **** on a bull".
 
Alfonz said:
The dude kicked 51.34 last year. On track to kick 46.31 this year (maybe more with finals).

That is not even close to being as "useless as **** on a bull".
Click to expand...
those numbers dont include OOTF and not making the distance and just all round spud kicks. I've watched him play plenty - his kicking is useless (for a KPF). Matt Spangher his forward line assistant coach had to be very diplomatic about his kicking when interviewed last week as well. Was an interesting response to the interviewer's question on his kicking.
 
Naughton would be too expensive for my liking, and I don't actually think we need him at this point in time.

But, anyone thinking he isn't a great player and wouldn't improve any team in the comp is a nuffy.
 

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DragoDelph said:
Yeah, we know.

LMcD on the other hand….
Click to expand...
I think we are more chance of Naughton than LMcD in the next two years (LMcD isnt leaving Sydney IMO). I dont think either are particularly likely anymore though, despite putting a lot of time into chasing both
 
Snuffaluphagus said:
I think we are more chance of Naughton than LMcD in the next two years (LMcD isnt leaving Sydney IMO). I dont think either are particularly likely anymore though, despite putting a lot of time into chasing both
Click to expand...
Depends.

If Sydney go hard after naughton and Barrass, something will have to shake loose.

Besides, what other 195cm KPF could we be chasing? Johnson is too short, Lukosius is unlikely to leave GC.
 
DragoDelph said:
Depends.

If Sydney go hard after naughton and Barrass, something will have to shake loose.

Besides, what other 195cm KPF could we be chasing? Johnson is too short, Lukosius is unlikely to leave GC.
Click to expand...
I think we are chasing both Naughton and McDonald very hard but we are going to come up short. Dont think we are chasing anyone else that's a KPF
 
Not sure you need two elite KPFs tbh. Outside of Geelong who actually has two elite KPFs? Maybe Carlton but they’re not even in the eight.

Naughton or McDonald would cost us as much as Luke Jackson did.

I’m not against bringing in players like Brockman for second rounders if they fill a position we need help in. We’ve had our big trade - I’m not sure trading multiple first round picks for players overly regularly is a great idea tbh.
 
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